Advice Wanted: V-Tuning my 2009 Street Glide w/MT8 Calibration

[mcouture]

I've been working on re-tuning my 2009 Street Glide (3" Air & Wild Pig Pipes) with the new MT8 calibration.   Last year's calibration worked great and I got 40-44MPGs consistently.

I've been reading all the threads discussing all the new features of TTS and I wanted in!   I loaded up calibration CTD205-03-A0.MT8 and I changed my CLB table to:

Changed CLB Table to:

605   605   605   625   664
605   605   605   625   664
605   605   605   625   664
625   625   625   625   664
664   664   664   664   664

I've done 7 V-Tune runs so far.  Here are my last 3 V-Tune runs:

V-Tune 3


V-Tune 4


V-Tune 5


Here is my VE Charts as they stand now.

Front


Back


So my question to you the experts is:  What area(s) should I be concentrating on now?  EGR smoothing?  Changing IVO from 4 to 5 like recommended by the Cam Tool analyzer?  Or just leave well enough alone???

[Steve Cole]

The first thing you should be doing is doing the cam data test and making any corrections in that. Once that is done and if you made changes your going to need to redo the Vtune. IF this is the case you can make EGR adjustments right along as you do your Vtune's. If you make NO changes in the Cam Data Test then you would go right to making EGR adjustments.

[mayor]

that's a lot leaner than I'm running.  I ended up tuning to 762 clb's. 

Looks like you are not collecting enough data in some fairly important cells. You should focus on trying to get more data points in the 1,750 and 2,000 rpm ranges, and also in the 4,000 rpm ranges if you frequent 3,500 often. 

[mcouture]

This was my CLB table last year. 

781   781   781   781   781
781   781   781   781   781
586   586   586   781   781
605   605   605   781   781
684   684   684   781   781

I chose to go leaner for two reasons.  First my buddies didn't like to follow me as they say my bike 'smells' rich and second, I'm looking to see if I can squeak more MPGs.   I'm wondering if my old tune wasn't 'v-tuned' enough and that is why it smelled... As of now, the bike does not smell as much on this new tune.   Major - are you using 762 across the board?

My usual riding "area" is 2.2K - 3.5K.  I'm a fairly conservative rider but I do like to twist the wick at times too... I'm going to run the interstate in 3/4 gear to get >3.5K RPMs and do some heavy "passing" runs.   I've had a hard time getting higher map 1.75K - 2K areas, but I'll get it.

[mayor]

mayor - are you using 762 across the board?

yes.

My usual riding "area" is 2.2K - 3.5K.  I'm a fairly conservative rider but I do like to twist the wick at times too... I'm going to run the interstate in 3/4 gear to get >3.5K RPMs and do some heavy "passing" runs. 

I've had a hard time getting higher map 1.75K - 2K areas, but I'll get it.

in order to get the best running bike, you want to make sure you tune the cells on the outside of your typical riding ranges.  These cells are read by the ECM , even if you never actually reach them during normal riding. 

try using 5th and 6th to get 1.75k and 2k, just be gentle when twisting the throttle. 

[JustDennis]

I've been working on re-tuning my 2009 Street Glide (3" Air & Wild Pig Pipes) with the new MT8 calibration.   Last year's calibration worked great and I got 40-44MPGs consistently.

I am doing almost exactly the same think on my 2008 FLHT (SE Heavy Breather & Jackpots)

I've been reading all the threads discussing all the new features of TTS and I wanted in!   I loaded up calibration CTD205-03-A0.MT8 and I changed my CLB table to:

Changed CLB Table to:

605   605   605   625   664
605   605   605   625   664
605   605   605   625   664
625   625   625   625   664
664   664   664   664   664

I've done 7 V-Tune runs so far.  Here are my last 3 V-Tune runs:

I started with the same map but set my CLB to 684.  I have done 3 v-tunes run so far and I guess it is time to try to smooth the EGR but I dont understand the process yet.  I definitely need to hit more cells.  My Histograms look very similar to yours.

So my question to you the experts is:  What area(s) should I be concentrating on now?  EGR smoothing?  Changing IVO from 4 to 5 like recommended by the Cam Tool analyzer?  Or just leave well enough alone???

I ran the Cam Analyzer before I started and changed from 4 to 5.  It really impacted the VEs.  I will try to post what my runs in another thread but plan to follow yours closely as well.

[mcouture]

Ok, I've decided to move into a different direction.  I've decided not to try to run lean and I've also decided to change the IVO.  I decided to use my modified map as my 'base map'

I changed:
     IVO from 4 to 5.
     CLBs to 762 across the board

I've run 7 V-Tune sessions since:

Front VE Chart


Rear VE Chart


Last EGR Graph


Last Vtune Histogram


After making the changes, I noticed the VE were way off.  It seemed overly rich all over.  It took a full 7 runs to get the bike to be what I think now is near 'production'.

What are your recommendations for EGR smoothing at this point?    Anything else you see?

[Steve Cole]

I would increase the EGR for both cylinders 30% 0 - 3000 RPM and see how that does to raise those low  VE values in the beginning. Also lower the idle to 800 for testing and see if you cannot get a little more data by using higher gears in the 800 - 3000 range at low throttle areas (<10%)

[mcouture]

I've taken your suggestions and reduced idle and I have increased the EGR in the 0-3000 range.  I've run a few V-tune sessions and I've now increased EGRs to pretty much maximum settings.  I'm am also perplexed as to why the VEs at the 750RPM line is so much lower than other areas...48ish verses 60-80 in most others.     

The bike feels 99% there.  It no longer pops on decel and is very smooth and power is great.

So how does everything look?  What should I be tweaking now? 


Front EGR


Rear EGR


Front VE


Rear VE


Histogram

[Steve Cole]

I would increase the EGR for both cylinders 30% 0 - 3000 RPM again and see how that does to raise those low  VE values in the beginning. A few of the lower settings will be turned up as far as you can go but that will be OK. The rest of the shape of things looks pretty good.

[mcouture]

I have added more EGR and have run one short vtune session so far.  I think I see the VEs coming up.  I believe I need to up the Rear EGR at 2400-2800 another 30%.  Currently both front and back 0-2400 are max'ed.   

I'm noticing that I seem to be chasing my VEs in the 1,3,5 Columns from 750 - 2500.  For example: one run they can be at 49 then another run they'll be at 56 then another run they'll be 48.  Alot of back and forth.

One thing I forgot to mention is that I have developed a decel pop - actually a decel "bang".  It happens if I am lightly to heavily accelerating up to 3-3.5K and let off and decel to about 2.5K - It sounds like a gunshot.   I can make it happen everytime.  It seems more easy to get it to pop when the engine isn't as warm.

This started happening around the 6th vtune session - I am at 9 vtune sessions now.

I tried setting my tune to "production mode" with all tables set to normal and I still get my decel pop.   I never had a pop with my MT7 tune, but I never had my CLBs this high before.

What should I be looking for to fix this pop?  More vtune runs in the 3-3.5K area? 

[Steve Cole]

You may have an issue with the O2 sensor placement and when trying to run this rich at low engine speeds. Funny thing about O2 placement is that it can effect different areas when tuning. Low RPM tuning is the hardest area and you might be running into that.

[mcouture]

I'm a bit confused.  I'm at a point now where I am starting to backtrack my tunes.  I seem to have traced my problems with the low VEs in the 1,3,5,7 columns at the point where I up'ed the CLBs to 762 and I started to increase the EGR tables.   I was able to run 3 vtune runs with this setup but the 4th and 5th run was when I started to increase the EGR tables.  This is when the VEs took a nose dive. 

What I decided to try is change my CLBs from 762 to 723.  I did my same vtune run and it "barely" changed at all.  Hardly any pinks.  The pop at 3K is gone but I was sure my VEs would have changed dramatically. 

I'm at a point now where I think I should start from scratch - load a fresh new calibration, run the cam tool analyzer again and set the CLBs to something more reasonable.  It seems it all started to go downhill when I took my tune and then changed the cam intake from 4 to 5.

I hate to do it since I have about 25 vtune runs now... 

[Steve Cole]

No need to start over but I think you are just reaching the limits of the O2 sensors due to placement in the exhaust. This is a normal thing when you start to get to far to the edge things become unstable and I think this is what your seeing. When you back the CLB's down your moving away from that edge. It the combination of all the parts you have added and not all the same parts will do the same things on each bike. I would move the CLB to 703 and see how it does there. Do not expect thing to make huge changes as it's not going to happen if things were getting unstable. At the point where things start moving again you know that you have made a change that things are stable at again.

[mcouture]

Ok, I'll take a deep breath and take baby steps back.   I'll try 703 for the CLBs.   Do you think I should back off on the EGR tables since their both max'ed out from 0-2800?

Thanks Steve!

[Steve Cole]

Ok, I'll take a deep breath and take baby steps back.   I'll try 703 for the CLBs.   Do you think I should back off on the EGR tables since their both max'ed out from 0-2800?

Thanks Steve!

Nope, one thing at a  time. When things become unstable its hard to leave it alone and take it one at a time but it must be done to get it resolved properly. Low engine speed and open exhaust like you have puts it in a bad case to start with. It could be solve a lot of different way but you first have to identify what it is. My guess is bad sensor placement, along with and open style exhaust and there is not enough back pressure to get a good sensor reading. As the engine RPM comes up pressure in the exhaust builds and the sensors get a better reading. This is an age old issue but no one wanted to believe it but that's slowly changing around here at least as people are seeing the improvement by getting the sensors positions correctly. HD gets away with poor placement due in part to the plugged up muffler design they run. If this settles it down then you need to decide how you want to tackle the issue, or just leave it alone at the new settings.

[mcouture]

I reduced my CBLs to:

625   625   625   645   684
625   625   625   645   684
625   625   625   645   684
645   645   645   645   684
684   684   684   684   684

I know, maybe a bit lean but I got a little nervous.   I ran a couple vtune runs and my VEs in the 1,3,5,7 columns from 750-2250 is still hovering around 45-50 just like the graphs I've been showing previously.   I still have a wicked pop when coming off throttle at 3200ish that sounds like a 12 gauge shotgun.   

I'm wondering if that is truely the range where they should be - and because of the open exhaust I am getting the fluctuations (45-55ish).  Maybe I just need to manually blend some of the lower RPM VEs and be done with it.  It feels good down there.   
For kicks, I took the VEs in that area and put them up to 80.  I bike sounded rich rich rich.   I quickly put them back.

If you think it's appropriate, I'd like to run a couple more vtune runs and then "go production" and try to get the pop taken care of and be done.

Another question is I ran the camtune process and the chart had it's first bend at 5 so I moved it from 4 to 5.  I had several vtunes done before this(and the VEs looked good across the board), then I changed the camtune and ran several more vtunes and this is when the VEs started to trend way down in the 40-50's at light throttle and 80-90's up mid-high throttle.   One question is, is this ok?   Should I go back on the camtune and try vtuning at #4?

Just searching for clues... Thanks again everyone.

[Steve Cole]

Run the cam data test again and send me the data and I will take a look at it and let you know where it should be from the data. The numbers will be what the numbers are and trying to second guess it is only going to get you into trouble.

[mcouture]

Attached is my latest Cam data test.  It was done this afternoon.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Steve Cole]

From that data I would set IVO to #5

[mcouture]

Rain today so I had time to regroup and look at all the data I had gathered.   

It seems when I began that I had some misconceptions on how things worked.  CLBs (offset from Stoich - and Stoich is based on type of fuel, not just the magic number of 14.68).   EGR tables - what areas they actually effect and why.  Free flowing pipes - would love to know how to fix that!  I also realize that I wasn't as mythotical as I maybe should have been. I am learning to take baby steps!

Reviewing my vtune runs, I had 10 runs with my setup of IVO at 5 and CLBs at 762.  I was not able to raise the VEs with the EGR tables at low RPMs 0-2800.   There was some thought that I might be maxing the capabilities of my sensors but I backed down my CLBs to the mid 600's and I still have the same issues.  So I guess I can assume 'open exhaust syndrome'?  Any cheap way to fix this?  Would plugging up the left exhaust do any harm/help?

I have since played with other CLBs and I will be going with 684 (which should give me 14.23 if running E10 gas - Stoich of 14.27).  I have 3 short runs on this calibration and the VEs look real similar to when I was running 762.  I have a nice flat chart except for low/part throttle area.  I do have more EGR to give it though.

So tomorrow I hope to finish vtuning my 684 calibration.  This will give me 2 good calibrations - a 684 and a 762.    I will then move to tuning out the pop at 3K. 

So,
question #1 - assuming my exhaust is preventing a good sensor reading, how do I fix it?  I need a cheap answer for this year and a long term answer - ie: what exhaust/pipe should I go with.
question #2 - assuming my tunes are 'as good as it gets', how do I tune out my pop?
question #3 - given the data(and I can get more if needed) are my tunes as good as they can be?  and is that enough?

As soon as I get my last runs in, I'll post all the data/graphs and the calibration for review.  I promise I will take the necessary baby steps from now on!

Thanks for all your wisdom!

[mayor]

question #1 - assuming my exhaust is preventing a good sensor reading, how do I fix it?  I need a cheap answer for this year and a long term answer - ie: what exhaust/pipe should I go with.

question #2 - assuming my tunes are 'as good as it gets', how do I tune out my pop?

question #3 - given the data(and I can get more if needed) are my tunes as good as they can be?  and is that enough?

1. are you running the stock -09 head pipe?  is it the 49 state version (catless)?
does the mufflers you are running have remove able baffles?  can you add a slightly more restrictive baffle?

2.  free flowing mufflers are more prone to popping, but some of the popping may be able to be tuned out.

3. can you post your latest cal, and your last v-tune data run recording along with the cal that was used in the recording?

[mcouture]

I am running the stock '09 Headpipe - 49 state version.
The exhaust are Wild Pig Pipes with removable 1.75" baffles. Which baffles do you recommend?


2009-SG-STG1-2011-tune10-1000-008: 762 CLBs - I recorded VTuneData-2011-0502-001 with this calibration
This is Vtune session 15.

This was my last run with 762 set as my CLBs.   This is where I "got concerned" about not being able to control the lower RPM VEs. 

I then took and modified the CLBs to a staggered CLB in the first calibration.   Then the second one I moved all CLBs to 684.  These 2 calibrations are Vtune session number 3 and 4.
00-tune-01-002: Staggered CLBs - I recorded the file: VTuneData-2011-0503-006 with this calibration
00-tune-01-003: 684 CLBs           - I recorded the file: VTuneData-2011-0505-000 with this calibration

If I am to keep with 684 CLBs I do have more VTune sessions to perform

I hope you can follow my madness.     

The link to the files are here:  http://www.box.net/shared/zq1so93beu

Thanks!

[Nexus9]

I may be able to help with the Closed Loop Bias discussion.  Here's the deal with that. 

First, the closed loop bias settings only affect cells that are set in the AFR table to 14.6 - so if the cell is not set at 14.6, the CLB setting doesn't affect it. 

Cells set at 14.6 are being controlled by a direct circle from the O2 sensors to the ECM - here's how it works:  When the level of unburned oxygen changes in the header pipe, it causes the voltage output to change in an O2 sensor -that's all an O2 sensor does.  Now, the O2 sensor is designed to output 450 millivolts when the amount of unburned oxygen in the exhaust is the equivalent of 14.6 air fuel ratio.  So when the AFR is exactly 14.6:1, the O2 sensor is sending a 450 mv signal to the ECM.  The ECM reads 450 mv, and if the ECM is programmed to WANT 450 mv, it concludes that everything is copacetic, and it doesn't make any changes to the AFR.  If the voltage from the O2 sensor drifts off of 450 mv, the ECM will correct the AFR until it reads the correct (450 mv) signal from the O2 sensor again.

So, the cool thing about closed loop is that I could program a starting MAP from a 117 ci motor with a S&S 626 cam in my stock 96" Road King, and the loop between the O2 sensor and the ECM will automatically create a 14.6 AFR wherever I have entered "14.6" as a cell value.   

Okay, so back to the original question.  What does Closed Loop Bias do, and why would I want to adjust it?  All CLB is doing is changing the voltage that the ECM will automatically accept as "normal".  Unfortunately, the O2 sensors installed in our bikes have a very narrow operating output, and the voltage output changes the AFR very slightly - but let's say I want my AFR in my midrange cells (cruising and light throttle - economy range) to run at 14.2 AFR instead of 14.6.  I can set the closed loop bias to around 750 mv, and what I'm doing is telling the ECM that 750 is the number I want to be receiving from the O2 sensor - so adjust the AFR until you get a 750 (ish) mv signal from the O2 sensor, and hold it there.  If you look at a voltage/AFR chart, you'll see that this adjustment is pretty limited.  Also, the higher the sustained voltage from the O2 sensor, the more you will shorten the life of the sensor. 

Okay, so why not just set all cells to closed loop 14.6, adjust the CLB and forget about all this V-Tuning?  As mentioned above, the range is pretty limited (maybe 14.1 - 15.1) and although that may be okay at cruise its not so good at WOT. 

So we set cells outside of the closed loop range at specific AFRs - but remember, you are setting that AFR based on the data included in the base map!  So if you download a base map for a 110 into a 103 (like I did) and set the 100 kPa cells to 12.5, the ECM is going to squirt enough fuel into the airstream to make a 110 ci motor (certain cam, certain intake, certain exhaust...) run at 12.5:1.  If you don't have that exact combination, the AFR will be different.  Hence, V-Tuning, which determines how your particular motor combination flows air compared to the base map, and then adjusts the fuel to match your air flow. 

[Nexus9]

One other thought - in a DataTune read that I did a few nights ago, I was surprised to see that going down the highway, I was averaging 60 - 70 kPa between 2500 - 3000 rpm.  Since this is a light throttle (15 - 20%), non- "performance" area, it's probably worth it to set most cells below 3500 rpm and 70 kPa to 14.6 and control the AFR with bias - other than the idle cells, which you may want to set a little richer to help prevent overheating when idling in traffic.