Giving up on TTS, need 2 help items please

[Lama]

Okay after 8 months and countless hours and tanks of gas ($$$) V-Tuning, I am giving up on TTS for my 2011 FLT.

I do not live near a TTS dyno tuner, and even if I did, the AFV would most likely reset the dyno tune to a bad tune after the all dyno work.

It's obvious that my exhaust system or whatever is not cooperating with the O2 system. A PCV is going on and I am going to be done with it.  I honestly just want to ride a bike that is not so user intensive.

My 2 HELP items:

1) Can anyone send me a stock 2011 103" FLTCU ECM download?? Mine was lost during the hacking of the ECM by an unnamed person...not me.

2) Can anyone confirm if I need an actual stock 103" FLTC ABS map, or does any stock 2011 FL map work.


I obviously need the stock ECM map for the PCV to interface with?



After the PCV is installed with a FuelMoto canned map for my 113", I can then take it to DynoJet here in town and have it dyno tuned.



Thanks.

[Lama]

Also....my ECM is loaded with a new MT8 file, will this cause issues trying to restore the ECM back to stock ?

[Jeffd]

I will send you a factory stage 1 for 2011 103 touring bike if that helps.  I would need your email.  I will say my bike ran very good with the se stage 1 download. 

[Lama]

I think I need the factory ECM tune?

[wurk_truk]

If you are going with a PC, why not have the bike tuned open loop with the TTS.  Its not like the PCV is closed loop or anything like that.   AFVs will NOT effect an open loop tune at all.

I'm a thinking you should have heeded the warnings about NOT losing the restore cal for your bike.  I'm unsure if a digital technician can put the stock cal back in.  Hopefully someone HERE can send you a copy of their 2011 cal from where they did MT8s.

You will need a stock cal that someone pulled out with TTS... so you can restore it with a TTS.  AFter restore... you can THEN have a dealer do whatever you wish.

Good luck with your endeavors.

[Lama]

3.4.4.
Adaptive fuel control
When in closed-loop mode, the Delphi ECM will adapt to engine and environmental changes to maintain a consistent AFR. This works by the ECM first using the VE table to calculate how much fuel to deliver to hit the targeted AFR value. It then uses the O2 sensor to determine what the AFR actually is. If there is a difference, the ECM makes an adjustment and stores the difference in a “Adaptive Fuel Value” (AFV) cell for that particular RPM-MAP load region (there are up to 24 AFV cells per cylinder depending on the calibration). Over time, the AFV cells will develop a correction profile that is applied to the fuel calculation for each load region. These values are saved in the non-volatile EEPROM memory and will be reloaded each time the bike is started.

Key point: The adaptive values will be applied to the fuel calculation whether the ECM is operating in open- or closed-loop mode!
Because of the time required for the AFV cells to learn, we want the AFR calculation to be as accurate as possible to prevent a “hiccup” while the system learns - for that reason (and others), the VE tables must be calibrated to match the engine. Note that when MasterTune flashes a calibration to the ECM, the AFV cells are always cleared, so any previously learned values are removed from the calibration process. Unfortunately, there is no way to view the learned contents of the AFV cells at this time.

[Jeffd]

dyno jet told me that the pcv would work with factory stage 1 download.  I had the factory stg 1 download down by the dealer and before I got my tts I talked to dj and they said that was not an issue.

[Lama]

PM SENT!

[Dennis The Menace]

I would recommend the RevPerf EMS instead, but it requires O2 bungs installed on you pipes, and some older (pre '10) O2 sensors.  But, its set it and forget it, which sounds like what you are after.

RevPerf can install the bungs on your pipes, if you want.  Saves the hassle of doing it yourself.

[Lama]

My ProPipe HO has 2 sets of bungs, old 18mm (near head) and new 14mm (at floorboards).

I also have a virgin set of O2 sensors from my O7 Dyna.

Maybe a way to go?

Just now I completely removed my 2011 02 sensors, plugged the bungs, and loaded  my previous map now set in completely open loop.

I am sure the timing is not advanced enough for that amount of AFR, but I will run it anyway. Hopefully I can limp by with that until my next tuner arrives. I am sick of the TTS AFV resetting the closed loop config.

I will look at the Rev Tuner, but honestly, I just want to ride and forget, which an open loop PCV always seems to provide.

[Jeffd]

rev perf supples the O2 sensors that are used with it.  It sounds like a totally plug and play and forget it.

[Dennis The Menace]

Jeff, you would think I would remember that, as a EMS owner...my CRS is showing.  lol  Thanks for the help.

Since you have pipes with the older O2 bungs, the EMS is all you need.  Its about 5-10 minute leeting the bike idle when first setup, and all the tuning is done...nothing more to do, unless you make some major engine mods.  The EMS will adapt to minor motor changes, even a cam swap, depending on the cam profile.  I havent seen any tuner that can do that, but EMS can.

Brian is owner of Revolution Performance and is on HTT  (Revperf).  Feel free to call or email him and he will gladly talk to you about the EMS.  Its exactly what you are looking for.

[strokerjlk]

save your money
take the map to all open loop.

[wurk_truk]

Thats all fine and dandy... what the manual says...  but it has been a bit obvious that you don't 'get' some of this tuning BS.  And......... why should you I guess.  You have a nice 113... don't put a POS PC on it... ride somewhere for one nice tune..

Here's the REAL DEAL:  if the bike is in Open Loop... there is NOTHING the ECM can 'learn' from and apply AFVs to.  Period.  You just remove the O2s and throw em in a box.

THAT was how I, ME, fixed this problem on my last bike...  opened looped it.

So......  I guess if you could find someone who can actually tune, as opposed to a PC tune, then MY recommendation would be to open loop tune the bike, get it done, and quit being frustrated.

Make a 'ride' out of it?  The tune you have will last a day or so, so...  how far away is a REAL tuner?

Or send the map to like Stroker or whoever you can talk to, and they can open loop the tune you have that runs 'great' your words... until you CAN get to a tuner.

[Scotty]

I am still trying to work out why people think they can share MTE files with other people.

Steve Cole designed the TTS to read the ECM and retrieve the stock calibration and made it that it will only go back on the bike it came from originally.

So asking people for there stock file is not going to help you in anyway.

[Lama]

Thats all fine and dandy... what the manual says...  but it has been a bit obvious that you don't 'get' some of this tuning BS.  And......... why should you I guess.  You have a nice 113... don't put a POS PC on it... ride somewhere for one nice tune..

Here's the REAL DEAL:  if the bike is in Open Loop... there is NOTHING the ECM can 'learn' from and apply AFVs to.  Period.  You just remove the O2s and throw em in a box.

THAT was how I, ME, fixed this problem on my last bike...  opened looped it.

So......  I guess if you could find someone who can actually tune, as opposed to a PC tune, then MY recommendation would be to open loop tune the bike, get it done, and quit being frustrated.

Make a 'ride' out of it?  The tune you have will last a day or so, so...  how far away is a REAL tuner?

Or send the map to like Stroker or whoever you can talk to, and they can open loop the tune you have that runs 'great' your words... until you CAN get to a tuner.

Well, I set the "great tune I had" to all open loop using the AFR chart (manually converted to Lambda) of a 2006 year TTS file for a 2-1 pipe 1865cc map (FNL141-03-A0). Removed O2 sensors (they will NEVER be reinstalled!) and went riding.

Well, no check engine light (I knew it wouldn't but will store a code). Bike runs VERY smooth.

Power feels a bit soft, as I guessed, timing would be needed to burn that richer mixture, but....all in all, VERY nice.


I agree that anyone with any common sense would understand that without 02 sensors, the ECM - AFV has no way to reset the values.......but hey.. I am just quoting the actual user manual supplied by TTS...which I guess is completely wrong on that subject? Must be.

I hope I don't come across as a complete retard in regards to TTS, I have no doubt a minimum of 100+ V-Tunes, tweaks, timing runs, etc. on two different setups on my bike, and I have interfaced with nearly every adjustable table allowed on the 2009+ type files, and do understand how they interact with the engine.

The problem is, (and this is my rant..excuse me) you need to have a magical unicorn combination of parts with zero reversion and exact bung lengths and (previously) an exact SE cam and and etc. etc. etc. to V-Tune and stay closed loop. Even after all that or going to a Dyno, the AFV can and will alter the damn thing.

My big issue was that after all these years of modding HD's (all open loop/carb), I really wanted to exploit the natural benefits of closed loop for a more sophisticated level of performance. This has been my 8 month quest, and I have not given up easily. This is now where I say I give up. If the TTS will "hold" a decent open-loop tune from this point forward, with no other side effects, I will just keep the unit, as the diagnostic segment of the tool is awesome. I will then get it Dyno tuned by GMR or Fullsac, who are a few hours away.
I agree going to a PCV on a cusom built 113 is not the best idea, but I am done with ANY form of closed loop for quite some time, maybe next bike, mild build, balanced exhaust.

Thanks Wurk and the rest who have helped with my posts and in reasoning out my frustration. I guess I should have at least tried open loop sooner, to relieve some stress on this bike tuning excercise. I would have at least saved 10 or more tanks of gas...lol.

[strokerjlk]

Removed O2 sensors (they will NEVER be reinstalled!) and went riding.

but your missing out on there best function. they make great plugs for the bungs.
as long as you are in open loop every where it dosent hurt to have them in there to stop the codes.

[JustDennis]

Maybe I am totally off but I thought AFV is a function of the ECM not of TTS.  When I used the PC-V, AFV came into play there as well.  I don't think moving to a PC does away with AFV but you can mask the effect by running open loop.  AM I totally off on that?

[ultraswede]

If AFV stands for Adaptive Fuel Value,
then if you are running THE WHOLE afr able out of closed loop, there is no way the ECU can Adapt to anything fuel related.
The tune will stay the same.

[rbabos]

Lama: Trust me, I've been where you are now. Spent all last year with the same issues. Had a few suggestions on what to try regarding the O2s. Checked all that out and function was normal. Then the MT8 came along and while the features seemed like just maybe this is the solution in the end I had the same problems. I've recently gone back to open loop to save what's left of my sanity. I have a 113 as well and it just don't get the correct afrs everywhere to run correctly. By going open I can now supply what it needs to be stable instead of the being on the ragged edge, where it changes depending on temps and air pressures. This time, I cannot really attribute problems with the AFV, since reloads had no effect. It ran quite decent in the cooler evenings in closed but mid day heat the tune went south. This was telling me it vtuned on the lean side in some areas like light load areas that are the most picky with my engine. If there is ecm compensating for these changes it's either not very accurate or happens slower than I have patience for. This also, at least to me raises the question on the relationship between air temps, engine temps when the vtuning takes place based on the above experiences. I really wanted to do the close loop thing but not all engines will get an optimum vtune using stock narrow band O2 sensors.
I still like the tts and all it's features but through all this unwanted learning curve I can now accept without a doubt my engine and closed loop are not meant for each other due to the required afr needed in some areas to run right.
I'd keep the tts and just tweek it to a nice running open loop state. Sugar free Kool-Aid.
Ron

[rbabos]

Maybe I am totally off but I thought AFV is a function of the ECM not of TTS.  When I used the PC-V, AFV came into play there as well.  I don't think moving to a PC does away with AFV but you can mask the effect by running open loop.  AM I totally off on that?

The ecm compensates for several things but when the O2 sensors are switched off the data needed for the AFV isn't available to make changes to the fuel.
Ron

[Sporty 48]

Too many variables at one time. Got to get to the basics. Then start the tinkering.
You guys are leading me, kicking and screaming, to the light.
It is hard to remember why we are in the swamp (to tune it) when we are up to our armpits in alligators.

[strokerjlk]

I've recently gone back to open loop to save what's left of my sanity. I have a 113 as well and it just don't get the correct afrs everywhere to run correctly. By going open I can now supply what it needs to be stable instead of the being on the ragged edge, where it changes depending on temps and air pressures

check out Axtell's web site. Ron has a good write up titled.
"Lean Engine Heat"

[hrdtail78]

A couple of questions that I have are:

1. What do the O2 bungs look like and how are the depth of the sensors?

2. Where are the bungs located?  I have seen VH pipes that have them located way up the pipe and next to the heads.

3. What do the generated tunes created with Vtune look like?  Is there a trend of them pulling one way or the other, or are they bouncing back and forth?

4. Why is the thought that a big inch torque engine needs richer than .977 or 14.34 at cruise?

Lama,

I would keep what you have and take it down to Steve.  Let him tune it and after that decide if you want to get rid of the close loop feature.  The dongle is locked to your bike, and it can adjust more than the PCV.  Tune with what you have and decide on open or closed later.

[hrdtail78]

One more:  "Mine was lost during the hacking of the ECM by an unnamed person...not me."

What does "Hacking" consist of?

This one stems from the ECM changing your tune during normal riding, not TTS.