Dyno Tuning Experience With Big Boys Cycles Bean

[Sporty 48]

Had an appointment, was going to cancel, but ended up going, very glad I did..
The Vtune works but I found bad errors in my work last night. Felt like a Boob, but I bounce back quickly.
I thought, if this guy is as good as others say, he might tune the bike and teach me a thing or two.
Bean did both.
Bean is meticulous. He went cell by cell, by rpm and throttle position over and over with that 4 gas sniffer up my header pipes. He took readings, made notes, made adjustments, the final tune calibration was the 9th one. Used a bunch of gas. He even checked tire temps with a lazer thermometer. During a break the room filled up with mosquitoes, those fans cleaned house quick, it was funny but impressive.
My tune took about 10 hours. He spent a lot of time explaining nuances of tuning and the Pro Tuning Dyno.
Bean's partner is George, did not meet him, they work as a team according to Bean.
Do not trust the Mapquest, ask directions. Or some Mainer will tell you, 'You can't get there from here.'
What I found was a decent, hard working, fun (how to describe someone who enjoys his trade) craftsman that was patient, intelligent and willing to help me understand efi dyno tuning. Just what I found, is all.
The Sporty roars.
Typical speed junkie, i want more. But, the money is all gone and I got some riding to do, after I change the oil tomorrow.

[rigidthumper]

NICE!

[strokerjlk]

craftsman that was patient, intelligent and willing to help me understand efi dyno tuning.

you found a good use for the 02 sensors also,didnt you. they make good bung plugs.
glad Bean got it straightened out.
No V tunes now...just ride and leave it be

[Doghouse]

craftsman that was patient, intelligent and willing to help me understand efi dyno tuning.

you found a good use for the 02 sensors also,didnt you. they make good bung plugs.
glad Bean got it straightened out.
No V tunes now...just ride and leave it be

So, Bean's tunes are all open loop?

I was always under the impression that it takes more than 9 runs to get a good tune.  Did he work the timing also?

[BVHOG]

Sounds like you had an entertaining and informative day. Wish I could afford the 4 gas stuff.
I read it as 9 map flashes to the ecm, definitely more than 9 runs in 10 hours.

[Sporty 48]

Strokerjlk,
Now wouldn't it be nice to leave well enough alone. Not much chance of that though.
After all, it is a Harley.
If anything, Bean opened my eyes to possibilities. Gave me a fresh start. And a well tuned bike.

craftsman that was patient, intelligent and willing to help me understand efi dyno tuning.

you found a good use for the 02 sensors also,didnt you. they make good bung plugs.
glad Bean got it straightened out.
No V tunes now...just ride and leave it be

Doghouse,
Bean used the TTS Mastertune tuning software and the Pro Tuning 4 Gas Analyzer Dyno together. Used my plug.
Yes, it is an open loop tune. Yes, he did adjust the timing.
Super tune? Yes, without a doubt.
Doghouse, do you have any idea how valuable Quality dyno time is with an expert tuner? One of maybe 5, 10 in the USA? He also used a lot of time explaining to me how it works. I felt like I fell in a big pile of dog"Potty mouth" in tuning this bike and came up with a pot of gold when I spent a 10 hour day with Bean tuning. He said it was not perfect, we could have spend more time on it. He gave guidance on making changes and backing up working copies of tunes using TTS Mastertuner.
There, now are you happy, you are making me feel sad I did not give him another hundred, shame on you, Baddog.

So, Bean's tunes are all open loop?

I was always under the impression that it takes more than 9 runs to get a good tune.  Did he work the timing also?

BVHOG,
Yes, a very productive day.
Affordable? I thought so, actually, a bargain.
Check them out.

Sounds like you had an entertaining and informative day. Wish I could afford the 4 gas stuff.
I read it as 9 map flashes to the ecm, definitely more than 9 runs in 10 hours.

[strokerjlk]

Bean is a lot of fun for sure. He was just here at my shop. We had a blast. He helped me put my 6 sp back togather. We played on the dyno with a mt8 cal then a mt 7 cal.
The time just went too fast.
10 hrs with Bean,you had to get quite an education 

[autoworker]

Great place to go for tuning.Not a lot of hype,just great service and more than your money's worth when it comes to tuning.
They are both good guys to deal with.

Yes,the mosquitos don't last long once the fans are  turned on.Damn shame though seeing that they are the state bird.

Good to hear you made the worthwhile journey.

[springer-]

I was always under the impression that it takes more than 9 runs to get a good tune.  Did he work the timing also?

What do you consider a "Run" to be? 
Is it a sweep run that starts at say 1500 RPM and goes until rev limit?  Like you see at bike week dyno shootouts?
Is a run a single RPM loaded by the brake?
Is a run a throttle position or engine load?

I can have a run last 8 seconds or 45 minutes!  If you are tuning in 8 second "Runs" then I sure hope it takes a LOT more than 9 "Runs".

If however a "Run" consists of hitting 1000 RPM, 1250 RPM, 1500 RPM, 1750 RPM, 2000 RPM, 2250 RPM, 2500 RPM, 2750 RPM and 3000 RPM, 3500 RPM, 4000 RPM, 4500 RPM, 5000 RPM, 5500 RPM and maybe 6000 RPM at 5% throttle position, 7% throttle position, 10%, 15%, 20%, 25%, 30%, 40%, 60%, 80% and 100% throttle position for EACH of the RPM's listed AND for both the front and rear cylinder AND recording all the gas readings the answer is Yes 9 "RUNS" sounds about right.

But if you asked me I would not call them "Runs", they were Dyno sessions that included other aspects as well, like cool off time, tire temp checks, timing adjustments, data recording, data analysis, map adjustments, ecm flashing etc, etc, etc.

A dyno "Run" to me is when you through a bike on the dyno, warm it up and then do a sweep test to produce a dyno sheet.  We don't do dyno runs.

Hope that helps explain the 9 runs better.

[Tsani]

  Yup!

[FLTRI]

Just to add to the above,
Our tunes usually consist of 10-12 WOT dyno runs throughout the entire tuning process for mild builds and can be twice as many for bigger more exotic builds.

Those dyno runs used as sweep tests/runs to get the WOT fueling as close as possible to precise target AFR.

From the WOT tests/tunes we get an idea of the way the engine breathes so we can make informed adjustments to the VE tables in the other-than-WOT areas.

Then the majority of the tuning time is getting all the VE's (200+ tp/rpm cells) calibrated to the target/desired AFR for way that particular engine breathes with its cam profile, exhaust system, throttle body size, cylinder porting, compression, and injector output variances.

Depending on the quality of the tuner's library of base calibrations the amount of time it takes to dial in a particular engine/build can vary as much as 4-6 hours.

HTH,
Bob

[Doghouse]

Sure, all of that helps.  Just to be clear, I wasn't questioning anybody's methods, I was just looking for clarification. 

The tuners in my area tend to do a lot of short "runs" for lack of a better word.  most runs are exactly what Springer describes as a run.  I've had tunes done by 2, who were regarded as the best in the area, and neither tuner worked more than a couple hours on either bike. 

What does one give up by keeping a tune all open-loop?

[msocko3]

What does one give up by keeping a tune all open-loop?

[FLTRI]

What does one give up by keeping a tune all open-loop?

Fuel mileage and adaptability to varying fuel grades (lots of that nowadays) and qualities.
Bob

[rbabos]

What does one give up by keeping a tune all open-loop?

I look at the gains. Better idle afrs, better drivability in light loads and no pesky sensors to worry about trashing the tune down the road.
Ron

[FLTRI]

...I look at the gains. Better idle afrs, better drivability in light loads and no pesky sensors to worry about trashing the tune down the road...

This only occurs in 2 instances IME:
1) Exhaust system's O2 mounting incorrect causing ECM to make incorrect decisions.
OR
2) Your name is Ron or Jim.

Bob

[rbabos]

...I look at the gains. Better idle afrs, better drivability in light loads and no pesky sensors to worry about trashing the tune down the road...

This only occurs in 2 instances IME:
1) Exhaust system's O2 mounting incorrect causing ECM to make incorrect decisions.
OR
2) Your name is Ron or Jim.

Bob

Well, it aint #1, so it must be #2 
Ron

[BVHOG]

...I look at the gains. Better idle afrs, better drivability in light loads and no pesky sensors to worry about trashing the tune down the road...

This only occurs in 2 instances IME:
1) Exhaust system's O2 mounting incorrect causing ECM to make incorrect decisions.
OR
2) Your name is Ron or Jim.

Bob

Hey, don't leave me out, there are a lot more of us out here that know the truth than you might think.

[FLTRI]

...there are a lot more of us out here that know the truth than you might think.

So anyone who states that v-tuning doesn't work is telling the truth and those who have had many v-tune successes are lying? Mayor...you lying again?
Maybe I just don't know the truth...or at least what some claim is the truth...maybe they just don't know what the truth is?
Remember: Perception is your reality...truth doesn't matter.
Bob

[autoworker]

Don't forget...Bean uses that dreaded 4 gas tuner that has been bashed by some here.

Once again,Sporty 48....glad to read that you had a good tuning experience.

[rbabos]

...there are a lot more of us out here that know the truth than you might think.

So anyone who states that v-tuning doesn't work is telling the truth and those who have had many v-tune successes are lying? Mayor...you lying again?
Maybe I just don't know the truth...or at least what some claim is the truth...maybe they just don't know what the truth is?
Remember: Perception is your reality...truth doesn't matter.
Bob

No question mayor did a fine job. Pretty sure if I gave him my 113 ( with correct exhaust) it won't be long before he barfs up the KoolAid and comes over to the dark side with the rest of us if for no other reason to retain his sanity.  Thing is, some engines regardless of how well the O2s work will not vtune in all areas to produce a good running engine. Dats a fact.
Ron

[Steve Cole]

Don't forget...Bean uses that dreaded 4 gas tuner that has been bashed by some here.

Once again,Sporty 48....glad to read that you had a good tuning experience.

Nothing wrong with a 4 gas and a 5 gas is even nicer. The issue is they need to be used in steady state conditions as the response time is to slow for quick transitions. With lag times in the 3 second range it is what it is and you cannot compensate it out with all the various engine builds running around. As far as the open loop, closed loop debate there are hundreds of thousands of HD bikes running just fine in closed loop and we've had our test 120R running closed loop without issue for about 5000 miles now. No degrade over time on this one at all, just takes a properly made exhaust and tune to make it work right.

[strokerjlk]

What does one give up by keeping a tune all open-loop?

a little mpg. depending on the fuel from tank to tank.
it is what you gain,that is important.



FWIW.... after being to beans place and seeing what he does,and him being here and seeing the AFR route..
one thing we have in common ...steady state everything. time diff? who cares?  you have to hold it there long enough to stabilize and get good data
no matter the route. really one isnt longer then the other.
two diff routes but the"run" steps are the same to get there.
I am with you Bob...wish I had it also

[Sporty 48]

Yes!
This is what it is about, learning tuning.
Or, for all you city slickers out there, more than one way to skin a cat.

[Steve Cole]

What does one give up by keeping a tune all open-loop?

a little mpg. depending on the fuel from tank to tank.
it is what you gain,that is important.

Loosing 5-10 MPG I guess could be called a little 
Loosing the ability for the system to correct for the various fuels across the country
Loosing the ability for the system to correct for the conditions your riding in.

I guess you might as well go back and toss a carb on while your at it! There is nothing gained only things lost when you go from proper Closed Loop operation to Open loop.

[strokerjlk]

There is nothing gained only things lost when you go from proper Closed Loop operation to Open loop.

the biggest loss is..heat!
enjoy sporty 48.

[whittlebeast]

Steve

Try an experiment.  Tune a stock Sporty per you own TTS instructions.  I assume you can get one to run perfect in no time at all.  When done tuning, let the owner put about 1000 miles on the bike.  Then do a generic o2 data log on a cold start motor.  Ride the bike for one hour in about as many different riding conditions as you can find.  Then post the dm3 and the matching tune for all to see.

No fair using $30000 dynos and a $10000 4 gas.

AW

[Steve Cole]

You forgot about using our in cylinder pressure equipment too. I will see about finding a local customer with a Sportster.

[FLTRI]

There is nothing gained only things lost when you go from proper Closed Loop operation to Open loop.

the biggest loss is..heat!
enjoy sporty 48.

IME, proper VE calibration to 14.2:1 AFR to run closed loop during cruise operation cools running a lot from "as factory delivered". Then run open loop @ 12.8-13.5 depending on build and riding style outside of cruise for best performance (hp/tq).

This way the owner get the best of both worlds (economy and performance) which is what we should be offering IMO. Not just peak power, but also best cruise mileage.

Anyone can simply tune open loop and fatten up AFR.

The engine will run cooler for sure...maybe not best performance and/or best mileage but cooler. Maybe considerably richer than necessary to for cooling. 
Bob

[FLTRI]

Steve

Try an experiment.  Tune a stock Sporty per you own TTS instructions.  I assume you can get one to run perfect in no time at all.  When done tuning, let the owner put about 1000 miles on the bike.  Then do a generic o2 data log on a cold start motor.  Ride the bike for one hour in about as many different riding conditions as you can find.  Then post the dm3 and the matching tune for all to see.

No fair using $30000 dynos and a $10000 4 gas.

AW

Why not simply offer the data files you have that show what you are referring to? Since you have had the issue you have the data to illustrate it?

This is exactly what SC needs to see what his product is producing, right?

Waiting for him to find the right Sportster and run through the tests you have stipulated will take an undetermined amount of time when you possess all the data needed to prove your point.

Please post it up for all to see and learn from Andy! We all want to learn and you have the data.
Bob

[whittlebeast]

I bet Sporty 48 has a set off the new software.  I was just wanting to see what a log looks like coming off the bike when used by someone that is really good at using the software as intended.  My stuff is all fairly "tweaked" after vtuning was finished and would be a non typical example.

AW

[Sporty 48]

I am not done tuning.
This is too important to leave half understood.
Since I only have one Harley, this is the test vehicle, have two copies of the Big Boys calibration though.
Too many good people here have valid points, they might not be opposing points either.
My bike is open to experimentation, just looking to learn and not toast the motor is all.

[FLTRI]

I bet Sporty 48 has a set off the new software.  I was just wanting to see what a log looks like coming off the bike when used by someone that is really good at using the software as intended.  My stuff is all fairly "tweaked" after vtuning was finished and would be a non typical example.

AW

So are you saying you have deleted all the data files that show what you are referring to?
If so too bad because those data recordings are what it takes to show SC where the issue(s) are to be found.
So please take another look-see if you may just have calibrations, data logs and v-tune files to illustrate your statements.
Thanks,
Bob
PS - Anyone else who has these files that show the anomalies this poster is experiencing please post them up. Data is paramount to resolving issues not statements of opinion alone.

[BVHOG]

After recent information/advice given from a well known cylinder manufacturer my buddy was told  to run even as rich as 13.5 at cruise on a large cube bike. Now, I wan't a valid answer of how you are going to accomplish that in closed loop.
You wan't to run a relatively stock bike in closed loop with a basically stock exhaust configuration and pump gas friendly compression then have it but don't try to tell people that their new 120r or 117 build is at its best in closed loop. You are simply building too much heat in these big motors trying to accomplish that. Yes, it can be done but after 20 thousand miles which motor is going to be in better condition?  If you are worried about MPG then by all means buy a Prius, or better yet ride a bicycle (closed loop chain of course).

[FLTRI]

After recent information/advice given from a well known cylinder manufacturer my buddy was told  to run even as rich as 13.5 at cruise on a large cube bike.

Nothing quite like the friend of a friend hot scoops! Heard it through the grapevine.

Did the cylinder mfg tell your friend the engine would run too hot @ <70kpa @ 14.2?

Did the cylinder mfg offer to your friend why he felt 14.2 AFR for large ci engines could not survive during cruise?

Did your friend indicate to the cylinder mfg the engine would be run entirely in closed loop or just in light cruise?

My personal bike runs 14.4-5 in cruise and has over 25k miles 2up fully loaded in >100deg weather. It is a 117" twin cam. I run 13.5 everywhere else and get 42 mpg consistently performance riding through the mountains.

I also know SC has a customer with a HD 120" running closed loop 14.6 @ cruise and 14.2-5 everywhere but WOT.

VE tuning is the key to reliability. For example take a bike that the closed loop operation runs @ 14.2 AFR but in open loop, due to poor VE calibration, produces 15.5 when accellerating.

Since closed loop is the only time the engine runs at decent AFRs, everytime the system comes out of closed loop it runs lean/hot.

The engine eventually will overheat and fail especially if pulling up hill for long durations.

Some would assume it was due to closed loop operation that caused the failure when it was, in reality, due to poor VE calibration in open loop NOT the richer running closed loop.

We have many >103 ci engines running 14.2 (close loop) in cruise conditions without issues after years of running hard as well as touiring.

Bob
Bob

[wurk_truk]

After recent information/advice given from a well known cylinder manufacturer my buddy was told  to run even as rich as 13.5 at cruise on a large cube bike.

Nothing quite like the friend of a friend hot scoops! Heard it through the grapevine.
I heard it DIRECT from the MFG
Did the cylinder mfg tell your friend the engine would run too hot @ <70kpa @ 14.2?
Yes
Did the cylinder mfg offer to your friend why he felt 14.2 AFR for large ci engines could not survive during cruise?
Either excessive loads like trailering or not enuff fuel to cool engine back down from making a bunch of heat
Did your friend indicate to the cylinder mfg the engine would be run entirely in closed loop or just in light cruise?

My personal bike runs 14.4-5 in cruise and has over 25k miles 2up fully loaded in >100deg weather. It is a 117" twin cam. I run 13.5 everywhere else and get 42 mpg consistently performance riding through the mountains.

I also know SC has a customer with a HD 120" running closed loop 14.6 @ cruise and 14.2-5 everywhere but WOT.

VE tuning is the key to reliability. For example take a bike that the closed loop operation runs @ 14.2 AFR but in open loop, due to poor VE calibration, produces 15.5 when accelerating.

Since closed loop is the only time the engine runs at decent AFRs, every time the system comes out of closed loop it runs lean/hot.

The engine eventually will overheat and fail especially if pulling up hill for long durations.
The MFG in question states that bigger builds tend to do this in closed loop... hill climbing, and that once hill is crested, 14.2 isn't enough to cool back down well enough
Some would assume it was due to closed loop operation that caused the failure when it was, in reality, due to poor VE calibration in open loop NOT the richer running closed loop.

We have many >103 ci engines running 14.2 (close loop) in cruise conditions without issues after years of running hard as well as touiring.

I agree, but a 103 makes no where the heat of a 113 up to??? does...

Bob
Bob

Dammit Bob...  I don't wish to say this companies name... but you KNOW who it is.  The owner of that company has stated that he has NO axe to grind.  He just prefers... I do not tell outright who he is.  But...  I CAN assure you that he is convinced that TUNING is the key to proper parts longevity anymore...  It IS the number one thing we ALL need to address.

Now...  I HAVE been playing around a bit with CLB voltage calcs and have been listening to folks that SC says is BS... but WAIT!!

Lets say we DO have a 'corn' issue in the midwest.  I want SOMEONE, ANYONE to answer ONE easy question.  And I want you to send me a PM, too.
As... NONE of THIS is written in stone and that cyl mfg even admits he is searching for proper solutions...  OK?  It's NOT cut and dried regardless of WHAT the NON kool aid camp says... dude calls me weekly because I'm the 'opposing team', OK?  I haven't much tuning knowledge on bikes, but have a decent understanding of what makes the automotive side of things WORK.

In the voltage tool...  Stoich is 14.68 or whatever, right?  And we pick our offset from that and the highest offset available is 14.2, or so... right?  Now... the corn haters say that since corn has an Stoich of around 14.2 to begin with and all the crap then gets skewed, right?  THIS is THE argument.  Right?

Hmmmm  if I enter 14.2 as stoich in the voltage calculator... then we can achieve a closed loop bias of 13.8 afr using 798 as the voltage.

My easy simple question......  when corn is added to fuel, does the new resultant fuel mix alter what the lambda sensors 'see' as stoich?  Does it ACTUALLY work as the voltage tool describes?  Will the ECM 'see' that the gasohol is really 14.2 and adjust from there?  With E10, will I see 13.8 on my Wego while in closed loop while on a data run?  Corn HAS O2 in ITS mix... so does adding cornohol to gasoline make the O2s see a bit lean and richen the mixture simply from the O2 content?

I do NOT care about MPG, because cornogas will have less BTUs per unit anyways...  I'm wondering about a cool enough burn to keep everything copacetic. 

It's MY belief that closed loop is a good thing...................  cannot help it.  I agree wholeheartedly that CL is an invention of the EPA... but so is EVERYTHING on a car once they abandoned carbs... and it IS such an improvement between 1978 and now its ridiculous.  In 2008...  I owned a completely street legal Chevy that outputted 500hp from a small block...  TOTALLY STOCK...  So to tell ME that the EPA is strictly evil IS BS!!!  Obtaining THAT level of power IS dependent on fuel control and closed loop controls (feedback AND feedforward) using a bit better tech than our bikes... but Tech nonetheless.  A couple years ago... someone put a Z06 through the quarter at 10.9... and the car WAS 100% stock.  (I think it was at Englishtown or some NJ strip with just super duper air that was like 1000ft below sea level)... but a 10 sec car!!!  STOCK!!!  EPA mandates did this.

Bob... could you post, or PM me YOUR cal from YOUR bike?  Or paste up a jpeg showing your AFR table and allow the rest of us to see what minimum closed loop looks like?  Please?  I LIKE the idea of having a tune (for larger engine) almost completely open looped, but...... with some touches of closed loop to allow proper fuel control for the variances of the fuel itself...  I'm thinking CL might be best right at light cruise only.  Idle would be OL and anything making power would be OL, too.

Behind the scenes...  I'm loosing this particular battle  (that corn is SO evil, we MUST open loop everything).....  but to declare a winner of this 'war'...  is a long way off.

Me... on the 100% stock Rat...  I'm going to start playing around a bit once I move back to Columbus.  I want to SEE FOR MYSELF that a bike CAN be v-tuned, can be closed loop (minimum cells) and have THAT tune stay stable.  THEN... each upgrade through the 'stages'... I want to see if that goal can be met at every stage of upgrade.  At a minimum... I will have the bike a 107 by next spring... if times improve and money is a little easier to come by...  I will do a 120.

[whittlebeast]

Seriously,  I would love to see what Steve would do for a tune on a stock Sporty if it was going to be his bike to ride and the only tool he had to work with is the same tool most of us have to work with.

Most of time I get involved with a Sporty tune, the owner has one of a very short list of tuners and has wound up frustrated with the results.  I almost always advise to get TTS, follow the instruction as best you can, Vtnue about 8 times, set the AFR tables and then send me a generic o2 data log.  I would love to see the results when done by Steve.  Heck, if the tune ran great, it would be cool to have included in the standard release TTS files.

AW

[strokerjlk]

Anyone can simply tune open loop and fatten up AFR.

really? so before 2006 there was no need for dyno tuners?
it isnt just fatting up the AFR

VE tuning is the key to reliability.

wanted to agree with something, this was all I could come up with.

[strokerjlk]

I am not done tuning.
This is too important to leave half understood.
Since I only have one Harley, this is the test vehicle, have two copies of the Big Boys calibration though.
Too many good people here have valid points, they might not be opposing points either.
My bike is open to experimentation, just looking to learn and not toast the motor is all.

why? you got a tune that only a hand full of tuners in this country can deliver. why screw with it? if you think you can do better or make it better "street tuning" you are sadly mistaken. be careful

[BVHOG]

VE tuning is no doubt the most important part of calibrating a bike. But if your VE's are accurate then open loop running will also be accurate and best of all consistent.(No adaptive fuel)
Yes, fuel will change things a bit but I have traveled across the country(8 days 3480 miles) and had no issues nor did the other open loop, pre 07 bikes that were on the trip. The ecm has full capability for elevation changes in open loop as well so that argument is moot.
I don't see the narrow band sensors as the problem nor the clb's but the adaptive fuel can raise hell if the sensors get a bad reading due to various engine builds and exhaust configurations.
By reading here you would think the pre 07 bikes have no capability to run properly at all and that is just outright bull"Potty mouth".
Come to think of it, the only problem we had on that cross country trip was the damn carb bike that wouldn't start at the top of Bear Tooth Pass.

[rbabos]

Anyone can simply tune open loop and fatten up AFR.

Really? Last time I was in my shop I don't remember seeing a dyno and a means to measure 13.2 to set the ve tables. All I have is what vtune gives me for this task and then richen if the engine feels the need based on how it runs. Not much else you can do with just TTS. Not picking on you Bob, but the statement is open to attack.
Ron

[wurk_truk]

I am not done tuning.
This is too important to leave half understood.
Since I only have one Harley, this is the test vehicle, have two copies of the Big Boys calibration though.
Too many good people here have valid points, they might not be opposing points either.
My bike is open to experimentation, just looking to learn and not toast the motor is all.

why? you got a tune that only a hand full of tuners in this country can deliver. why screw with it? if you think you can do better or make it better "street tuning" you are sadly mistaken. be careful

I can NOT stress this enough.  Jim is beyond correct.  You DID get a tune that most of us would REALLY like to have.

If you want to mess around...  It's your bike... but I think you would simply NEVER improve upon this tune from Bean... especially with the tools available for Sportys to begin with.

[wurk_truk]

Hey Ron... leave Bob alone, dammit!!!

[FLTRI]

If your engine is tuned with accurate VEs AND your O2 bungs are designed for the O2 sensor to work properly...why would anyone opt to run entirely in open loop???

Why don't you anti-closed loop activists recommend to all your customers and friends to convert back to carbs and breake points. After all there was nothing wrong with that AND you could rebuild the carb and file the points out on the road.

I do wholeheartedly agree it is much easier to jet a carb and adjust points gap than to understand, diagnose, repair, and tune EFI issues...but if it was easy anyone could do it.

As SC has stated many times there are 2 choices:
1) Close loop (vtune) tune with O2 feedback verified and fixed if not right.
2) Open loop tune and leave it in open loop. Ignore the technology to avoid the issue.

Bob

[whittlebeast]

1) Close loop (vtune) tune with O2 feedback verified and fixed if not right.

That fairly well sums it up

[hrdtail78]

"The engine eventually will overheat and fail especially if pulling up hill for long durations."

"The MFG in question states that bigger builds tend to do this in closed loop... hill climbing, and that once hill is crested, 14.2 isn't enough to cool back down well enough"

Did RD give you any temps on this or any data logged files that shows this?  Seems it would be pretty easy to back up with good solid data.

You chicken little guys have to understand that coming on here and repeating what you have heard or overheard from a friend of whatever... Doesn't really cut for some that look at data and like to see hard facts.  First it is out of context.  I wonder what he says about the down sides of running 13.5 in a no load cruising situation?

Bigger engine = more power, which is heat.  Questions have to come up like was the oil system that is designed for the 96.  Is this also modified?  Most I have seen like to level out about 3 quarts.  Is 3 good enough?  Air and oil is what cools these thing.  I look at fuel not as a cooling agent, but as something that can produce heat if not correct.  I understand the cooling and lube properties but I am going to rely on air/ oil.  You can pick that statement apart, but remember with in reason people.

Then we have to look at carb big inch builds.  I have seen posted about still getting 40-43mpg.  They cant be doing that at 13.5 can they?

[Sporty 48]

This is looking more and more like a "Mine is Bigger" contest.
Open loop, closed loop and both is the answer.
And how is a man supposed to learn how to tune unless he works at it? Come on!

[whittlebeast]

There is really no such thing as too much heat with a well tuned motor.  What you are dealing is simply an under cooled motor.  Ducati has what is on paper a very similar motor pulling 162 hp in the Diavel stock.

AW

[rbabos]

Hey Ron... leave Bob alone, dammit!!!

I was going to but now I'm a non KoolAid Activist.
Love this forum.
Ron

[FLTRI]

Open loop, closed loop and both is the answer.

Bingo!! 
Note: Nobody championing closed loop has stated the entire running area should be in closed loop...for all builds/exhausts...just the cruise area...and only IF O2 sensors are mounted peoperly. The high load ares should be left in open loop so the tuner can use whatever he wants for AFR.
Bob

[hrdtail78]

That's how the chicken little play it. It has to be all or nothing with closed loop. But I know of builds not closed loop anything over 3000 or less.  I asked the chicken little crowd before about this. No answer. Just blanket statement.  Or complete BS from people that don't really have a clue.

It all boils down to giving the engine what it wants. At least people are sipping the kool-aid. Use to be all engines need open loop. Now it is big inch.

BTW.  I certainly don't look at this as a war. It's a discussion. I partake in the pursuit of knowledge.   

[autoworker]

This is looking more and more like a "Mine is Bigger" contest.
Open loop, closed loop and both is the answer.
And how is a man supposed to learn how to tune unless he works at it? Come on!

Enjoy your bike Sporty 48.

[Sporty 48]

Yes, it is all to determine what the engine wants.

BTW, I drink a little beer and ride a smooth, fast Sportster.

........................
It all boils down to giving the engine what it wants.
.........................
BTW.  I certainly don't look at this as a war. It's a discussion. I partake in the pursuit of knowledge.

[Steve Cole]

This is looking more and more like a "Mine is Bigger" contest.
Open loop, closed loop and both is the answer.
And how is a man supposed to learn how to tune unless he works at it? Come on!

You have the tools and the knowledge to learn so go right ahead and do it as you can always put the tune back in the bike if you don't like the results of your work. The best thing is your open to learn where others here are not. As for the "Mine is Bigger" contest I could care less but I do want people to be able to learn to use our tools properly.

[BVHOG]

This is all an interesting take you guys have on this. The original thread refers to a mulitgas tune.
Your argument is running closed loop is not using the best tools available. So I suppose that you would think it better to turn your tune over to a set of 15 dollar narrow band 02 sensors and an ecm that can potentially degrade the tune by way of adaptive fuel rather than run a bike than has been tuned using the best knowledge and tuning tools(multigas) available.
BTW, the "chicken little" reference made, that's not the sky falling it just the tuner manufacturer's bull"Potty mouth" continually being dropped on us.

[strokerjlk]

You chicken little guys have to understand that coming on here and repeating what you have heard or overheard from a friend of whatever... Doesn't really cut for some that look at data and like to see hard facts.

your right simply stating.... SC "says" is far more scientific.

the magic CL afr has become 14.2.?
  seems like SC used to "say" 14.45 AFR was as rich as you could accurately run in closed loop.
FBBR had some interesting input about inj lag when you set CLB to far away from .450.
would be worth a read.

[Doghouse]

This is great discussion  guys.  How do you set a lambda based motor to 14.2 AFR?  The lowest lamda value I can set is .977 which equates to 14.34 (using the calculator).  Since there is no CLB table to run an offset, how do you get lower than that in closed loop?  Should I be using a different Stoich in the calculator?

[hrdtail78]

You chicken little guys have to understand that coming on here and repeating what you have heard or overheard from a friend of whatever... Doesn't really cut for some that look at data and like to see hard facts.

your right simply stating.... SC "says" is far more scientific.

the magic CL afr has become 14.2.?
  seems like SC used to "say" 14.45 AFR was as rich as you could accurately run in closed loop.
FBBR had some interesting input about inj lag when you set CLB to far away from .450.
would be worth a read.

I dont recall SC talking about 14.2.  Bob has brought up that number.  I also haven't seen where us kool-aid guys have stated SC "says" about tuning or what things should be set at in the CLB tables.  Now his system, IVO, EGR, PM mode...... Sure.  It his is system.  Not the tables but how we access those with TTS.


Moral of Chicken Little wasn't the sky falling.  It is about not believing everything you read.  Guy post up that tune isn't holding.  Chicken little's post up about how vtune doesn't work.  Close-loop is evil, IAT need to be moved..... But when O2 location is looked at and checked against the bocsh specs and fixed.  Happy customer.

Would love your source for $15 O2.  Best I have found is $43.  Or is that more BS to help you make your point.

Instead of evading.  Just answer the direct questions.  Back your stand with something a little more than I heard or my buddy says this, or the one bike I tuned with MT7.  Lets see a over heated engine because of fuel ratio.  Lets remember there are a lot of stock untuned bikes running out there with leaner air fuel than this kool-aid drinker is targeting for.

When you guys are ready to stop evading questions, BSng through your answers , let me know.  I would like that discussion.

[wurk_truk]

I'm sorry, but I simply cannot believe that in every and I mean every engine configuration that there is NOT a couple areas that CL could be left in play.  Just makes SENSE to me to use EVERY tool in the box for a GOOD running engine.  Maybe its because I'm a car nut... but I LIKE feedback controls.

And... I'm a dumbass, OK.  Fine.  But... most here make inane statements at times and it blows MY hair back.

So, lets get past that for a bit.  Here's the 'deal' as I see it.  MOST of the tuners on here give a crap.  That is HUGE and you guys don't realize that at all.

The VAST majority of problems that folks are experiencing with engine heat is caused by LACK OF KNOWLEDGE.  Some 'tuners' ARE lazy and unmotivated and do quicky v-tunes and call it a day.  Or, they PC tune doing quicky tunes...  Same difference.   THAT is life, and cannot be fixed.  The other end of things is a LOT of DIYers, even members here, don't really get the full 'deal' when DIY tuning.

Some fairly smart guys blow it when tuning... and that is carb tuning or EFI tuning.  I'm becoming convinced that THAT is the true issue going on with overheated engines.  It's NOT the tuner product, per se... it's the tuning.

Lets look at two Axtell builds that went sour.  One was Fixuntilbroke and the other was WVUltra.  A 117 and a 107.  One a crab and one EFI.  Ron brought FIB's bike to HIS shop and put it on the dyno and found the bike was extremely lean... increased jets by quite a bit.  THAT was a 'tunING' problem, pure and simple, right?  Then WV installed a 107 kit and v-tuned his bike.  His problem was that not enough info was floating at the time to tell HIM to keep CL to a minimum.  So, with his base map... most of the tune was CL.  He went west pulling trailers, etc and way overheated things.  Again a tunING problem.  I FUBARed MY bike playing with timing last year...  So I am SURELY not immune to this, myself.

Ummmmm.....  I think that I am going to do this, for MY bike and friends bikes...  v-tune the bikes at 14.6. (if they are AFR bikes), that will allow me to open and close any loop I may wish and also allow me to play with CLbs, if thats option.  Then, also check results with a BB metering set up.  Check and verify.  And FIX exhaust issues for good data reporting....  and that is that and I'm out of this argument.  I just feel that CL is there begging to be used, so I will.  I work in the machinery repair field.  That is all about data and reactions to that data with crap like PLCs, etc.  Bad data is bad data, no matter where, and I believe if GOOD data can be had... the the tune will NOT go crazy over time.  Fixing sensor placement, etc is exactly like aligning photo eyes, ect...

If this fails or succeeds... you will know.

Oh... SC sent me an article about BB sensor testers.  Twin Scan wasn't included, but most other AFR scanners were.  Only one stood out...  the Innovate product held steady and read good.  I MAY buy one of those later this year and have THAT in the ol tool box too.

Plus... to start some more crap...  I'm becoming convinced that gasohol is NOT such a bad thing and I'm NOT gonna sweat THAT anymore either.

[Steve Cole]

This is all an interesting take you guys have on this. The original thread refers to a mulitgas tune.
Your argument is running closed loop is not using the best tools available. So I suppose that you would think it better to turn your tune over to a set of 15 dollar narrow band 02 sensors and an ecm that can potentially degrade the tune by way of adaptive fuel rather than run a bike than has been tuned using the best knowledge and tuning tools(multigas) available.
BTW, the "chicken little" reference made, that's not the sky falling it just the tuner manufacturer's bull"Potty mouth" continually being dropped on us.

These are just the same old BS post from the the one claiming "Allergic to Bull"Potty mouth"." only problem is you are the one spreading most of it! How about you show us where you have the equipment and/or knowledge to prove a thing you say.

Look, Closed Loop works great when done properly and trying to say that it doesn't is just the same old guys with there head buried in the sand. There is not one OEM level manufacture world wide that doesn't use it and make big power on engines  with much more displacement than HD or any of the aftermarket guys are building. Funny thing is they warranty those engines for 50- 100 thousand miles too! They have been doing it for over 25 years this way too.

So why is it that a poor old 2 cylinder engine cannot run at roughly have the power output for the same displacement in closed loop and live without issues? The problem is NOT with Closed Loop but the lack of understanding of how to find and fix the problem is.

[wurk_truk]

I still want Bob to post a jpeg of his own AFR page so that I, and WE... can see whats really a small amount of CL and still works out good.

[BVHOG]

This is all an interesting take you guys have on this. The original thread refers to a mulitgas tune.
Your argument is running closed loop is not using the best tools available. So I suppose that you would think it better to turn your tune over to a set of 15 dollar narrow band 02 sensors and an ecm that can potentially degrade the tune by way of adaptive fuel rather than run a bike than has been tuned using the best knowledge and tuning tools(multigas) available.
BTW, the "chicken little" reference made, that's not the sky falling it just the tuner manufacturer's bull"Potty mouth" continually being dropped on us.

These are just the same old BS post from the the one claiming "Allergic to Bull"Potty mouth"." only problem is you are the one spreading most of it! How about you show us where you have the equipment and/or knowledge to prove a thing you say.

Look, Closed Loop works great when done properly and trying to say that it doesn't is just the same old guys with there head buried in the sand. There is not one OEM level manufacture world wide that doesn't use it and make big power on engines  with much more displacement than HD or any of the aftermarket guys are building. Funny thing is they warranty those engines for 50- 100 thousand miles too! They have been doing it for over 25 years this way too.

So why is it that a poor old 2 cylinder engine cannot run at roughly have the power output for the same displacement in closed loop and live without issues? The problem is NOT with Closed Loop but the lack of understanding of how to find and fix the problem is.

Why? because they are an air cooled engine subject zero cooling when stuck in traffic. The references you use I would assume are a liquid cooled motor. No doubt a liquid cooled motor can be run at much higher afr than even the stock lean HDs
As for the talk of 02 placement and bung length etc. not all of the factory pipes meet the bosch specs yet they work. Like I have said before, open exhaust, high overlap cams etc can wreak havoc on an 02 sensor sample no matter what bung length or location. There are also things that you cannot count on based on 02 feedback alone, that is where the multigas stuff has a MAJOR advantage.  Incomplete combustion will have not only fuel but left over o2 as well, these are the kind of things you can sort out with the multigas.
I do have a question though, is the TTS system capable of creating an excellent running 2002 to 2006 Delphi equiped bike as the system stands? We all know the answer to this is yes so why is it so hard for you to believe that a newer model cannot have the same results?

[hrdtail78]

"I do have a question though, is the TTS system capable of creating an excellent running 2002 to 2006 Delphi equiped bike as the system stands? We all know the answer to this is yes so why is it so hard for you to believe that a newer model cannot have the same results?"

Yes.  But didn't we leave these MT6 files a little on the rich side?  Safety for leaness, not know what kind of fuel going into it.  Can we do this for the newer bikes with the same result.  Yes.  Would we be going backwards.  Yes.  Will even a closed-loop 06 run better than an open loop 06.  Yes.  How can having that feedback harm in no load cruise?

Please don't forget the source for the $15 O2's.

[FLTRI]

Any air-cooled performance engine I have tuned stuck in traffic doesn't rely on closed loop cruise mapping for fueling. I open loop tune it for best cooling down there...stuck in traffic.

Please explain to us the reasons for your opinion that multigas is what is needed to tune a bike to its full potential.

As I mentioned many months ago I was working with a multigas mfg company but they were unsucessful at speeding up the sample-to-display rate to something I, as a tuner, felt could effeciently use that didn't need 8-10 hrs tuning time ONLY due to slow response-to-reading times @ steady state, especially when tuning the big inch high compression, high heat builds.

Also Mark Dobeck (Dynojet founder, Power Commander guru, etc) contracted this same  company a while back to build a multigas that would be fast enough to use effectively and practically to use with their 250i and car dynos. No success there either.

I know all the propaganda that comes from Factory folks...they are obviously using the negative selling techniques that completely turned me off when I was in the market a few years ago.

As always, JMHO,
Bob

[Steve Cole]

This is all an interesting take you guys have on this. The original thread refers to a mulitgas tune.
Your argument is running closed loop is not using the best tools available. So I suppose that you would think it better to turn your tune over to a set of 15 dollar narrow band 02 sensors and an ecm that can potentially degrade the tune by way of adaptive fuel rather than run a bike than has been tuned using the best knowledge and tuning tools(multigas) available.
BTW, the "chicken little" reference made, that's not the sky falling it just the tuner manufacturer's bull"Potty mouth" continually being dropped on us.

These are just the same old BS post from the the one claiming "Allergic to Bull"Potty mouth"." only problem is you are the one spreading most of it! How about you show us where you have the equipment and/or knowledge to prove a thing you say.

Look, Closed Loop works great when done properly and trying to say that it doesn't is just the same old guys with there head buried in the sand. There is not one OEM level manufacture world wide that doesn't use it and make big power on engines  with much more displacement than HD or any of the aftermarket guys are building. Funny thing is they warranty those engines for 50- 100 thousand miles too! They have been doing it for over 25 years this way too.

So why is it that a poor old 2 cylinder engine cannot run at roughly have the power output for the same displacement in closed loop and live without issues? The problem is NOT with Closed Loop but the lack of understanding of how to find and fix the problem is.

Why? because they are an air cooled engine subject zero cooling when stuck in traffic. The references you use I would assume are a liquid cooled motor. No doubt a liquid cooled motor can be run at much higher afr than even the stock lean HDs
As for the talk of 02 placement and bung length etc. not all of the factory pipes meet the bosch specs yet they work. Like I have said before, open exhaust, high overlap cams etc can wreak havoc on an 02 sensor sample no matter what bung length or location. There are also things that you cannot count on based on 02 feedback alone, that is where the multigas stuff has a MAJOR advantage.  Incomplete combustion will have not only fuel but left over o2 as well, these are the kind of things you can sort out with the multigas.
I do have a question though, is the TTS system capable of creating an excellent running 2002 to 2006 Delphi equiped bike as the system stands? We all know the answer to this is yes so why is it so hard for you to believe that a newer model cannot have the same results?

Well I would expect no less from you, another excuse. The stock 2011 HD bikes run just fine and as for your heat complaint that can be mostly resolve by removing the catalysis from the exhaust. The issue is NOT fuel mixture when set properly in the Closed Loop range. So if you take a HD motor and run it at 12.8 :1 in 70 deg temperatures will it over heat sitting in traffic at idle................. you bet it will! Every figure out what EITMS does for idle in traffic heat? So how is fuel mixture the issue, let alone the fix? Why is it that other engines will sit an idle all day long at 14.68 and never over heat? Stop blaming things you do not understand and start finding the problem and fix it! Rich fuel mixture is NOT the answer

A 4 gas or 5 gas bench is not all what you think it is, but since you have little to no test equipment I can see why you think it is better. Truth is anything is better than nothing, and the more you have the more you should learn but each and everything has it's better points and a 4 gas is no different. IT'S NOT THE END ALL BE ALL, not even close! It also is not going to make a better tune.

As for making the newer bikes (2007- up) get excellent results when tuning it's done daily with Closed Loop by people all across the world, so why is it only a few of you cannot seem to get it done!

[mayor]

as entertaining as I find the off topic parts of this thread , I feel the need to remind some of you folks that we need to be respective of each others opinions.  Let's keep the dialogue civil fellows. 

[Steve Cole]

Running an engine richer just means it is less efficient,

less efficient = less power per molecule of fuel,

less power per molecule of fuel = less heat per molecule of fuel,

less heat per molecule of fuel = less fuel economy!

Power is nothing more than heat and how well the engine converts that heat into mechanical energy is a big deal. So if above is how you think you should coverup the problem have at it. There are much better ways to deal with things than this, one needs to only learn how.

[Jeffd]

damn I am lucky.  My bike (2011 rgu 103) still has cats (my choice not to remove them) gets freakin 50mpg and is not excessively hot by any standards I am used to.  I expect a 103" air cooled motor to put off some heat. 

[Sporty 48]

No mention of a little timing advance at idle to cool engine temps.
Does that work?

When people believe strongly in what they are saying they get excited if challenged.
The learning here is in challenging existing beliefs and defending them.

Went for a ride today rural northern Pennsylvania-Corning, NY, windy, warm, nutty Friday afternoon drivers, sweet, sweet sporty.

[Steve Cole]

Timing just as fuel control when used properly will help a lot with heat. There is a point where no amount of fuel and no amount of timing is going to help anymore. It is the proper combination of everything working together that makes the engine as efficient as it can. The proper balance of the engine control system is what's needed to balance the total overall output.

Jeffd is just another perfect example of a balanced system, good power, good mileage= happy customer!

[BVHOG]

Any air-cooled performance engine I have tuned stuck in traffic doesn't rely on closed loop cruise mapping for fueling. I open loop tune it for best cooling down there...stuck in traffic.

Please explain to us the reasons for your opinion that multigas is what is needed to tune a bike to its full potential.

As I mentioned many months ago I was working with a multigas mfg company but they were unsucessful at speeding up the sample-to-display rate to something I, as a tuner, felt could effeciently use that didn't need 8-10 hrs tuning time ONLY due to slow response-to-reading times @ steady state, especially when tuning the big inch high compression, high heat builds.

Also Mark Dobeck (Dynojet founder, Power Commander guru, etc) contracted this same  company a while back to build a multigas that would be fast enough to use effectively and practically to use with their 250i and car dynos. No success there either.

I know all the propaganda that comes from Factory folks...they are obviously using the negative selling techniques that completely turned me off when I was in the market a few years ago.

As always, JMHO,
Bob

You don't have to read too far to see that the factory pro guys have an axe to grind with the other manufacturer, definitely some history there.
But explain to me what difference it makes if the sample gathered takes a bit longer to read , whether sampling 02 data or multi gasses you still need to let the bike stabilize during steady state tuning.
If you are data logging you simply read the Throttle position vs rpm (or map) and make your adjustments to the tuning software at shutdown. The only time I could see this being a problem is with a real time tuning device and since the best tuning devices out there are not real time I don't see this as a problem.
So I suppose from reading all these posts that I should assume that a system using a narrow band sensor and only sampling approximately 80 % of the running conditions is superior to a well seasoned and experienced tuner using a 4 gas system. Give me a break!!!
Hardtail, how about free sensors? between stroker and myself I am sure we can gather up a pile of slightly used ones for you. No guarantee on how long they will last though.

[HogMike]

damn I am lucky.  My bike (2011 rgu 103) still has cats (my choice not to remove them) gets freakin 50mpg and is not excessively hot by any standards I am used to.  I expect a 103" air cooled motor to put off some heat.

I'm running my 103 at 1Lambda (14.68) and it's running great! Yes it heats up at stop lights on hot days, but, not that bad.
I wanted to run at this setting in closed loop, over varying conditions (including pulling my trailer) just to see what kind of mileage and power I have.
Dyno shows 100/100 +- and the bike exhibits excellent road manners......which was my goal from the start!
I'm finally done with this one, my next bike's tune will start with the map I have on this one, and the build will be very similar, just bigger!
JMHO.....so.......no bashing, please!

[Steve Cole]

Any air-cooled performance engine I have tuned stuck in traffic doesn't rely on closed loop cruise mapping for fueling. I open loop tune it for best cooling down there...stuck in traffic.

Please explain to us the reasons for your opinion that multigas is what is needed to tune a bike to its full potential.

As I mentioned many months ago I was working with a multigas mfg company but they were unsucessful at speeding up the sample-to-display rate to something I, as a tuner, felt could effeciently use that didn't need 8-10 hrs tuning time ONLY due to slow response-to-reading times @ steady state, especially when tuning the big inch high compression, high heat builds.

Also Mark Dobeck (Dynojet founder, Power Commander guru, etc) contracted this same  company a while back to build a multigas that would be fast enough to use effectively and practically to use with their 250i and car dynos. No success there either.

I know all the propaganda that comes from Factory folks...they are obviously using the negative selling techniques that completely turned me off when I was in the market a few years ago.

As always, JMHO,
Bob

You don't have to read too far to see that the factory pro guys have an axe to grind with the other manufacturer, definitely some history there.
But explain to me what difference it makes if the sample gathered takes a bit longer to read , whether sampling 02 data or multi gasses you still need to let the bike stabilize during steady state tuning.
If you are data logging you simply read the Throttle position vs rpm (or map) and make your adjustments to the tuning software at shutdown. The only time I could see this being a problem is with a real time tuning device and since the best tuning devices out there are not real time I don't see this as a problem.
So I suppose from reading all these posts that I should assume that a system using a narrow band sensor and only sampling approximately 80 % of the running conditions is superior to a well seasoned and experienced tuner using a 4 gas system. Give me a break!!!
Hardtail, how about free sensors? between stroker and myself I am sure we can gather up a pile of slightly used ones for you. No guarantee on how long they will last though.

First off you would have to know/be a well seasoned and experienced tuner 

Then once you go that far the person doing the tuning would already know that a 3 - 6 second delay for the first reading then waiting for it to settle down 3- 5 seconds more in time is a long time at each and every data point. You have complained all along that it needs to be much quicker with O2 sensors but now that we have proven again that the gas meters are slower, you change your tune again. Do you think a gas meter runs without issue? Do you think it doesn't have to get calibrated? Do you think it cannot give false readings? If you do then you are sadly mistaken. Gas bench's are a pain in the butt when it comes right down to it but they do somethings very nicely, so pick your poison. So now were down to no perfect one piece of test equipment so you had better have a few different pieces that do different things well so they complement one another. This is just why a lab has all the various pieces of test equipment!

Your pot shots at our system have really gotten old and each time another customer gets it done must really send you screamin. Bottom line is what we provide has done a better job than most of what is on the road today, is it perfect NO and we never said it was. Is it better than what you've put out the door, you bet ya, but it's only a tool and my Dad always said a poor craftsman always blames his tools! Guess he was right.

[hrdtail78]

It's spin.  I use $150 BB sensors and they are better than the $15 ones.  They have to be, right?  I pay $135 more.  Or I use $87 BB sensor instead of $43 ones. Honest, but doesn't have the impact.  Every tune I have done I have used BB's.  Some, I use both.  Price doesn't worry me as much as using the sensor correctly and for the correct application.

[hrdtail78]

BTW  Mailing Address:
C&S Speed Shop
4802 Old Missouri Ave
Alorton Ill. 62207

You don't have to mail them.  Feel free to stop by anytime.  Face to face debates are always better.  I'll buy lunch.

[BVHOG]

BTW  Mailing Address:
C&S Speed Shop
4802 Old Missouri Ave
Alorton Ill. 62207

You don't have to mail them.  Feel free to stop by anytime.  Face to face debates are always better.  I'll buy lunch.

Got a good rib joint near by?

[Sporty 48]

First off you would have to know/be a well seasoned and experienced tuner 
.............................

Steve,
That is the most difficult part of tuning. Learning who to trust for answers as well as the best places to look for help.
We are mostly at very different levels of skill and learning ability, but we all love a good running Harley.
As the creator of the best self tuning system out there you have a powerful voice and skills to help many who do not post.

[WVULTRA]

Lets look at two Axtell builds that went sour.  One was Fixuntilbroke and the other was WVUltra.  A 117 and a 107.  One a crab and one EFI.  Ron brought FIB's bike to HIS shop and put it on the dyno and found the bike was extremely lean... increased jets by quite a bit.  THAT was a 'tunING' problem, pure and simple, right?  Then WV installed a 107 kit and v-tuned his bike.  His problem was that not enough info was floating at the time to tell HIM to keep CL to a minimum.  So, with his base map... most of the tune was CL.  He went west pulling trailers, etc and way overheated things.  Again a tunING problem.

-truk:

Since you and I have never discussed what I may or may not know about CL operation, please tell me the purpose of your info above.  You have never seen the map that was in my bike during this "alleged" overheating incident; and please tell me where I was going when I "went west pulling trailers, etc."  There's never been a trailer behind my bike, so I'm unsure how/where you picked up on this.

If this is based on some of the BS that was discussed at Cinci about my build, then you have no idea what the outcome was; and most importantly, I fail to see where this info is relevant to the OP that had a very positive experience with Bean tuning his bike.

[Unbalanced]

And... I'm a dumbass,   

OK.  Fine.  But... most here make inane statements at times and it blows MY hair back.   

Lets look at two Axtell builds that went sour.  One was Fixuntilbroke and the other was WVUltra.  A 117 and a 107.  One a crab and one EFI.  Ron brought FIB's bike to HIS shop and put it on the dyno and found the bike was extremely lean... increased jets by quite a bit.  THAT was a 'tunING' problem, pure and simple, right?  Then WV installed a 107 kit and v-tuned his bike.  His problem was that not enough info was floating at the time to tell HIM to keep CL to a minimum.  So, with his base map... most of the tune was CL.  He went west pulling trailers, etc and way overheated things.  Again a tunING problem.  I FUBARed MY bike playing with timing last year...  So I am SURELY not immune to this, myself.

Had I only known that 3 days in Cinncinatti and one could return an expert on tuning and motors even without data 

Wow the poor experts have been replaced by wurk truk.  I am really sorry WFO and Mr. Sachs guess you guys need to rely on the new guy now.   Low compression and poor combustion don't cause heat after all its gotta be the CL tables         

[slik rik]

Ok now dont bash me here.....I'm a newb

so as I have read all of this I seem to believe that bean used the 4 gas and the tts to tune the bike, The OP says it runs great now........So the fact he used a 4 gas and the tts just says to me that he has more tools than I do to do the job to his "the tuners" best.

I have been on here a little while and have read the bashing of SC and his product, I dont use his product,....yet.... but have been using a pc3 for over quite a while now. This how I see steves product, its not really a plug and play like a pc3, that V&H crap, or any of the plug and play "tuners" out there.

As Mayors post of his tune demonstrated to me (anyway), the product is for a more advanced diy tuner, someone that doesnt just bolt on goodies to his chrome sled and say hes got a custom bike. Granted his product isnt perfect, but think of it like Microsoft with windows, that wasnt the most stable or even good OS out there, but if you knew how to "mod" the system to get it to run stable and fast it was good.

The only reason I havent jumped on the TTs is the time to get the sweat tune like mayor has, I have 2 little ones, 3 and 6, and the time I get to ride is limited so I dont have a great deal of play time to tune.

Obviuosly the debate about OL and CL is going to continue on this forum until the ascension, thats been delayed again

I do like reading the banter until it gets totally off track, with the bashing, but some bits are worth thinking about. Bashing Steve I dont believe is productive when he could be typing code instead of defending himself and his product. 

Keep trucking steve cause no one else seems to have a product that does what yours does....so far 

JMO  rick

[mayor]

well said Rick, and I agree completely.     I think what gets lost in translation sometimes is that the TTS system is a Pro-quality tuning system first, and a DYI tune device second.  In the hands of a skilled tuner, it is a great system. The one thing it isn't is a plug-n-play system.  There is a least some up front work to make it work good (vtuning) for a DYI person, and some basic tuning knowledge and patience to make it work great.   

Not to throw more mud in the water, but my personal preference would be to have a 100% closed loop function.   Unfortunately, that's not realistic with narrow band sensors.  Since I can't get 100%, I'll settle for partial even if I have to run slightly leaner than I would prefer...afterall, the richer end of the allowable with narrow bands is still richer than what the bikes come at from the factory.  I think if someone were to develop a software system like TTS, and couple that with the 100% closed loop auto-tune system of the T-max that uses broad bands...I'd be interested.  Until then, I have no regrets with partial closed loop.     I will admit though I'm not running anything large or with high compression, so I can't say how I would feel if I were.  My guess is I would feel the same.    

[Scotty]

Bashing Steve I dont believe is productive when he could be typing code instead of defending himself and his product. 

It's alright Gary (Rufus) writes most of the code anyway 

[Sporty 48]

Slik Rik,
We are here to learn to tune Rik. From what I gather there is quite a bit to it.  I just took a detour to the Big Boys Cycles to give the tune and the brain a boost. A very pleasant experience when the tuner is open to questions and sharing information.
TTS is still the best and not that difficult if you follow the directions. Some want to understand EFI, do not follow directions well and constantly changed bike components (Me).  I stopped the changes for now. Just about ready to do a TTS tune after some vacation (retired).
The snipping does get tiresome but it is just a part of the process, just press on with your goals.
Think of this tuning adventure as a mental break from all the outside B.S., it is quite fun, lots of good helpers here.
Sporty

Ok now dont bash me here.....I'm a newb

so as I have read all of this I seem to believe that bean used the 4 gas and the tts to tune the bike, The OP says it runs great now........So the fact he used a 4 gas and the tts just says to me that he has more tools than I do to do the job to his "the tuners" best.

I have been on here a little while and have read the bashing of SC and his product, I dont use his product,....yet.... but have been using a pc3 for over quite a while now. This how I see steves product, its not really a plug and play like a pc3, that V&H crap, or any of the plug and play "tuners" out there.

As Mayors post of his tune demonstrated to me (anyway), the product is for a more advanced diy tuner, someone that doesnt just bolt on goodies to his chrome sled and say hes got a custom bike. Granted his product isnt perfect, but think of it like Microsoft with windows, that wasnt the most stable or even good OS out there, but if you knew how to "mod" the system to get it to run stable and fast it was good.

The only reason I havent jumped on the TTs is the time to get the sweat tune like mayor has, I have 2 little ones, 3 and 6, and the time I get to ride is limited so I dont have a great deal of play time to tune.

Obviuosly the debate about OL and CL is going to continue on this forum until the ascension, thats been delayed again

I do like reading the banter until it gets totally off track, with the bashing, but some bits are worth thinking about. Bashing Steve I dont believe is productive when he could be typing code instead of defending himself and his product. 

Keep trucking steve cause no one else seems to have a product that does what yours does....so far 

JMO  rick

[hdxbones]

I had an 07 FLTR w/the 103 SE kit and 255 cams. SE Race Tuner. Nobody local could tune it right. Open loop, closed loop, didn't matter, 3 different 'tuners' couldn't get all the ping out of it. It ran hot. I was close to putting different cams in, when I had an opportunity to go to Big Boys. Rode it up to Maine, and I'd swear I came back on a different bike. Smooth, strong, quiet, and cool.......

Now I'm no expert, just a happy customer, but Bean, the 4 gas sniffer, and his eddy current step tune dyno worked some magic that my local 'pros' couldn't touch. Put about 30,000 on that bike afterwards, and never had any more pinging or heat troubles..... BTW, we did keep the entire tune below the closed loop threshold......

I'm on a new FLTRU now, with the new 254E cams, it's the hottest 'fkn bike I've ever ridden. I'm ordering a new headpipe this week AND calling Bean to make an appointment.........

[wurk_truk]

I'm a dumbass, and have sent an apology to WV.  I HOPE he takes it, because it involved way more than a day at the show.

To hdxbones...  never ever have I have heard or ONE dissatisfied customer of BigBoyz tuning... not ONE!  I'm jealous!!!

[Sporty 48]

Wurk Truk,
Get over it, this is the internet.
We are here to have some dirty Harley fun and learn tuning.
We all learn in different ways, you are learning too by the looks of it.

I'm a dumbass, and have sent an apology to WV.  I HOPE he takes it, because it involved way more than a day at the show.

To hdxbones...  never ever have I have heard or ONE dissatisfied customer of BigBoyz tuning... not ONE!  I'm jealous!!!

[Rider57]

This is all an interesting take you guys have on this. The original thread refers to a mulitgas tune.
Your argument is running closed loop is not using the best tools available. So I suppose that you would think it better to turn your tune over to a set of 15 dollar narrow band 02 sensors and an ecm that can potentially degrade the tune by way of adaptive fuel rather than run a bike than has been tuned using the best knowledge and tuning tools(multigas) available.
BTW, the "chicken little" reference made, that's not the sky falling it just the tuner manufacturer's bull"Potty mouth" continually being dropped on us.

These are just the same old BS post from the the one claiming "Allergic to Bull"Potty mouth"." only problem is you are the one spreading most of it! How about you show us where you have the equipment and/or knowledge to prove a thing you say.

Look, Closed Loop works great when done properly and trying to say that it doesn't is just the same old guys with there head buried in the sand. There is not one OEM level manufacture world wide that doesn't use it and make big power on engines  with much more displacement than HD or any of the aftermarket guys are building. Funny thing is they warranty those engines for 50- 100 thousand miles too! They have been doing it for over 25 years this way too.

So why is it that a poor old 2 cylinder engine cannot run at roughly have the power output for the same displacement in closed loop and live without issues? The problem is NOT with Closed Loop but the lack of understanding of how to find and fix the problem is.

Why? because they are an air cooled engine subject zero cooling when stuck in traffic. The references you use I would assume are a liquid cooled motor. No doubt a liquid cooled motor can be run at much higher afr than even the stock lean HDs
As for the talk of 02 placement and bung length etc. not all of the factory pipes meet the bosch specs yet they work. Like I have said before, open exhaust, high overlap cams etc can wreak havoc on an 02 sensor sample no matter what bung length or location. There are also things that you cannot count on based on 02 feedback alone, that is where the multigas stuff has a MAJOR advantage.  Incomplete combustion will have not only fuel but left over o2 as well, these are the kind of things you can sort out with the multigas.
I do have a question though, is the TTS system capable of creating an excellent running 2002 to 2006 Delphi equiped bike as the system stands? We all know the answer to this is yes so why is it so hard for you to believe that a newer model cannot have the same results?

Well I would expect no less from you, another excuse. The stock 2011 HD bikes run just fine and as for your heat complaint that can be mostly resolve by removing the catalysis from the exhaust. The issue is NOT fuel mixture when set properly in the Closed Loop range. So if you take a HD motor and run it at 12.8 :1 in 70 deg temperatures will it over heat sitting in traffic at idle................. you bet it will! Every figure out what EITMS does for idle in traffic heat? So how is fuel mixture the issue, let alone the fix? Why is it that other engines will sit an idle all day long at 14.68 and never over heat? Stop blaming things you do not understand and start finding the problem and fix it! Rich fuel mixture is NOT the answer

A 4 gas or 5 gas bench is not all what you think it is, but since you have little to no test equipment I can see why you think it is better. Truth is anything is better than nothing, and the more you have the more you should learn but each and everything has it's better points and a 4 gas is no different. IT'S NOT THE END ALL BE ALL, not even close! It also is not going to make a better tune.

As for making the newer bikes (2007- up) get excellent results when tuning it's done daily with Closed Loop by people all across the world, so why is it only a few of you cannot seem to get it done!

About 1 year ago, WB wanted to see my data runs. I knew it would be somewhat amusing to him.
He asked me to try some of his attempts at figuring out why my bike was running the way it did. A few days into this adventure, he realized that I had tuned my bike to run CL at all throttle positions and 10 to 90 kpa. I live at 5000' and ride the Rockies up to 12000'. All closed loop. Cool runs, uphill, 95 degree days. No problem.

[Sporty 48]

Rider57,
Did you do this only with V-Tune?
Any dyno use?
Closed Loop in theory should do it but many seem to go open loop as a matter of course. The easy way out?

About 1 year ago, WB wanted to see my data runs. I knew it would be somewhat amusing to him.
He asked me to try some of his attempts at figuring out why my bike was running the way it did. A few days into this adventure, he realized that I had tuned my bike to run CL at all throttle positions and 10 to 90 kpa. I live at 5000' and ride the Rockies up to 12000'. All closed loop. Cool runs, uphill, 95 degree days. No problem.

[Rider57]

I did do most of it with Vtune then adjusted the CLB. The whole experiment, what I call it, was to see the effect of MAP against spark timing vs Afr against ve.
Most know I have access to more lab equipment than should be legal.
I have completed most of the experiments that I had on the list to the point that the rest were going to be meaningless or of little value.
I had to prove to myself that TTS was, if fact, doing exactly what it said it would do and do it correctly.
It does and I do give it a . Any endorsement is only worth the paper it is written on, but this is a forum, public at that, so it's only my word.
I have encouraged many riders in this area to get TTS and have given them assistance when called.
The local HD dealer doesnt like it, but they dont address the customer complaints about the dyno tunes they do (if you can call what they do a "dyno tune".
There is no "easy" way out. Each ride is different, builds are different. It's like forcasting the weather, nobody is really good at it, they only get close, sometimes.
A few years ago, June 6th, it snowed here. Most science is based on theory, remember that.

[1931jamesw]

Just found this one and read it front to back. Nice thread, subscribed (to the thread and 4 gas tuning, I was trained by Bean  )!

[Ccdan]

  You guy's done ?
Can I go to work now ?