Dyno Tuning Experience With Big Boys Cycles Bean

[hrdtail78]

That's how the chicken little play it. It has to be all or nothing with closed loop. But I know of builds not closed loop anything over 3000 or less.  I asked the chicken little crowd before about this. No answer. Just blanket statement.  Or complete BS from people that don't really have a clue.

It all boils down to giving the engine what it wants. At least people are sipping the kool-aid. Use to be all engines need open loop. Now it is big inch.

BTW.  I certainly don't look at this as a war. It's a discussion. I partake in the pursuit of knowledge.   

[autoworker]

This is looking more and more like a "Mine is Bigger" contest.
Open loop, closed loop and both is the answer.
And how is a man supposed to learn how to tune unless he works at it? Come on!

Enjoy your bike Sporty 48.

[Sporty 48]

Yes, it is all to determine what the engine wants.

BTW, I drink a little beer and ride a smooth, fast Sportster.

........................
It all boils down to giving the engine what it wants.
.........................
BTW.  I certainly don't look at this as a war. It's a discussion. I partake in the pursuit of knowledge.

[Steve Cole]

This is looking more and more like a "Mine is Bigger" contest.
Open loop, closed loop and both is the answer.
And how is a man supposed to learn how to tune unless he works at it? Come on!

You have the tools and the knowledge to learn so go right ahead and do it as you can always put the tune back in the bike if you don't like the results of your work. The best thing is your open to learn where others here are not. As for the "Mine is Bigger" contest I could care less but I do want people to be able to learn to use our tools properly.

[BVHOG]

This is all an interesting take you guys have on this. The original thread refers to a mulitgas tune.
Your argument is running closed loop is not using the best tools available. So I suppose that you would think it better to turn your tune over to a set of 15 dollar narrow band 02 sensors and an ecm that can potentially degrade the tune by way of adaptive fuel rather than run a bike than has been tuned using the best knowledge and tuning tools(multigas) available.
BTW, the "chicken little" reference made, that's not the sky falling it just the tuner manufacturer's bull"Potty mouth" continually being dropped on us.

[strokerjlk]

You chicken little guys have to understand that coming on here and repeating what you have heard or overheard from a friend of whatever... Doesn't really cut for some that look at data and like to see hard facts.

your right simply stating.... SC "says" is far more scientific.

the magic CL afr has become 14.2.?
  seems like SC used to "say" 14.45 AFR was as rich as you could accurately run in closed loop.
FBBR had some interesting input about inj lag when you set CLB to far away from .450.
would be worth a read.

[Doghouse]

This is great discussion  guys.  How do you set a lambda based motor to 14.2 AFR?  The lowest lamda value I can set is .977 which equates to 14.34 (using the calculator).  Since there is no CLB table to run an offset, how do you get lower than that in closed loop?  Should I be using a different Stoich in the calculator?

[hrdtail78]

You chicken little guys have to understand that coming on here and repeating what you have heard or overheard from a friend of whatever... Doesn't really cut for some that look at data and like to see hard facts.

your right simply stating.... SC "says" is far more scientific.

the magic CL afr has become 14.2.?
  seems like SC used to "say" 14.45 AFR was as rich as you could accurately run in closed loop.
FBBR had some interesting input about inj lag when you set CLB to far away from .450.
would be worth a read.

I dont recall SC talking about 14.2.  Bob has brought up that number.  I also haven't seen where us kool-aid guys have stated SC "says" about tuning or what things should be set at in the CLB tables.  Now his system, IVO, EGR, PM mode...... Sure.  It his is system.  Not the tables but how we access those with TTS.


Moral of Chicken Little wasn't the sky falling.  It is about not believing everything you read.  Guy post up that tune isn't holding.  Chicken little's post up about how vtune doesn't work.  Close-loop is evil, IAT need to be moved..... But when O2 location is looked at and checked against the bocsh specs and fixed.  Happy customer.

Would love your source for $15 O2.  Best I have found is $43.  Or is that more BS to help you make your point.

Instead of evading.  Just answer the direct questions.  Back your stand with something a little more than I heard or my buddy says this, or the one bike I tuned with MT7.  Lets see a over heated engine because of fuel ratio.  Lets remember there are a lot of stock untuned bikes running out there with leaner air fuel than this kool-aid drinker is targeting for.

When you guys are ready to stop evading questions, BSng through your answers , let me know.  I would like that discussion.

[wurk_truk]

I'm sorry, but I simply cannot believe that in every and I mean every engine configuration that there is NOT a couple areas that CL could be left in play.  Just makes SENSE to me to use EVERY tool in the box for a GOOD running engine.  Maybe its because I'm a car nut... but I LIKE feedback controls.

And... I'm a dumbass, OK.  Fine.  But... most here make inane statements at times and it blows MY hair back.

So, lets get past that for a bit.  Here's the 'deal' as I see it.  MOST of the tuners on here give a crap.  That is HUGE and you guys don't realize that at all.

The VAST majority of problems that folks are experiencing with engine heat is caused by LACK OF KNOWLEDGE.  Some 'tuners' ARE lazy and unmotivated and do quicky v-tunes and call it a day.  Or, they PC tune doing quicky tunes...  Same difference.   THAT is life, and cannot be fixed.  The other end of things is a LOT of DIYers, even members here, don't really get the full 'deal' when DIY tuning.

Some fairly smart guys blow it when tuning... and that is carb tuning or EFI tuning.  I'm becoming convinced that THAT is the true issue going on with overheated engines.  It's NOT the tuner product, per se... it's the tuning.

Lets look at two Axtell builds that went sour.  One was Fixuntilbroke and the other was WVUltra.  A 117 and a 107.  One a crab and one EFI.  Ron brought FIB's bike to HIS shop and put it on the dyno and found the bike was extremely lean... increased jets by quite a bit.  THAT was a 'tunING' problem, pure and simple, right?  Then WV installed a 107 kit and v-tuned his bike.  His problem was that not enough info was floating at the time to tell HIM to keep CL to a minimum.  So, with his base map... most of the tune was CL.  He went west pulling trailers, etc and way overheated things.  Again a tunING problem.  I FUBARed MY bike playing with timing last year...  So I am SURELY not immune to this, myself.

Ummmmm.....  I think that I am going to do this, for MY bike and friends bikes...  v-tune the bikes at 14.6. (if they are AFR bikes), that will allow me to open and close any loop I may wish and also allow me to play with CLbs, if thats option.  Then, also check results with a BB metering set up.  Check and verify.  And FIX exhaust issues for good data reporting....  and that is that and I'm out of this argument.  I just feel that CL is there begging to be used, so I will.  I work in the machinery repair field.  That is all about data and reactions to that data with crap like PLCs, etc.  Bad data is bad data, no matter where, and I believe if GOOD data can be had... the the tune will NOT go crazy over time.  Fixing sensor placement, etc is exactly like aligning photo eyes, ect...

If this fails or succeeds... you will know.

Oh... SC sent me an article about BB sensor testers.  Twin Scan wasn't included, but most other AFR scanners were.  Only one stood out...  the Innovate product held steady and read good.  I MAY buy one of those later this year and have THAT in the ol tool box too.

Plus... to start some more crap...  I'm becoming convinced that gasohol is NOT such a bad thing and I'm NOT gonna sweat THAT anymore either.

[Steve Cole]

This is all an interesting take you guys have on this. The original thread refers to a mulitgas tune.
Your argument is running closed loop is not using the best tools available. So I suppose that you would think it better to turn your tune over to a set of 15 dollar narrow band 02 sensors and an ecm that can potentially degrade the tune by way of adaptive fuel rather than run a bike than has been tuned using the best knowledge and tuning tools(multigas) available.
BTW, the "chicken little" reference made, that's not the sky falling it just the tuner manufacturer's bull"Potty mouth" continually being dropped on us.

These are just the same old BS post from the the one claiming "Allergic to Bull"Potty mouth"." only problem is you are the one spreading most of it! How about you show us where you have the equipment and/or knowledge to prove a thing you say.

Look, Closed Loop works great when done properly and trying to say that it doesn't is just the same old guys with there head buried in the sand. There is not one OEM level manufacture world wide that doesn't use it and make big power on engines  with much more displacement than HD or any of the aftermarket guys are building. Funny thing is they warranty those engines for 50- 100 thousand miles too! They have been doing it for over 25 years this way too.

So why is it that a poor old 2 cylinder engine cannot run at roughly have the power output for the same displacement in closed loop and live without issues? The problem is NOT with Closed Loop but the lack of understanding of how to find and fix the problem is.

[wurk_truk]

I still want Bob to post a jpeg of his own AFR page so that I, and WE... can see whats really a small amount of CL and still works out good.

[BVHOG]

This is all an interesting take you guys have on this. The original thread refers to a mulitgas tune.
Your argument is running closed loop is not using the best tools available. So I suppose that you would think it better to turn your tune over to a set of 15 dollar narrow band 02 sensors and an ecm that can potentially degrade the tune by way of adaptive fuel rather than run a bike than has been tuned using the best knowledge and tuning tools(multigas) available.
BTW, the "chicken little" reference made, that's not the sky falling it just the tuner manufacturer's bull"Potty mouth" continually being dropped on us.

These are just the same old BS post from the the one claiming "Allergic to Bull"Potty mouth"." only problem is you are the one spreading most of it! How about you show us where you have the equipment and/or knowledge to prove a thing you say.

Look, Closed Loop works great when done properly and trying to say that it doesn't is just the same old guys with there head buried in the sand. There is not one OEM level manufacture world wide that doesn't use it and make big power on engines  with much more displacement than HD or any of the aftermarket guys are building. Funny thing is they warranty those engines for 50- 100 thousand miles too! They have been doing it for over 25 years this way too.

So why is it that a poor old 2 cylinder engine cannot run at roughly have the power output for the same displacement in closed loop and live without issues? The problem is NOT with Closed Loop but the lack of understanding of how to find and fix the problem is.

Why? because they are an air cooled engine subject zero cooling when stuck in traffic. The references you use I would assume are a liquid cooled motor. No doubt a liquid cooled motor can be run at much higher afr than even the stock lean HDs
As for the talk of 02 placement and bung length etc. not all of the factory pipes meet the bosch specs yet they work. Like I have said before, open exhaust, high overlap cams etc can wreak havoc on an 02 sensor sample no matter what bung length or location. There are also things that you cannot count on based on 02 feedback alone, that is where the multigas stuff has a MAJOR advantage.  Incomplete combustion will have not only fuel but left over o2 as well, these are the kind of things you can sort out with the multigas.
I do have a question though, is the TTS system capable of creating an excellent running 2002 to 2006 Delphi equiped bike as the system stands? We all know the answer to this is yes so why is it so hard for you to believe that a newer model cannot have the same results?

[hrdtail78]

"I do have a question though, is the TTS system capable of creating an excellent running 2002 to 2006 Delphi equiped bike as the system stands? We all know the answer to this is yes so why is it so hard for you to believe that a newer model cannot have the same results?"

Yes.  But didn't we leave these MT6 files a little on the rich side?  Safety for leaness, not know what kind of fuel going into it.  Can we do this for the newer bikes with the same result.  Yes.  Would we be going backwards.  Yes.  Will even a closed-loop 06 run better than an open loop 06.  Yes.  How can having that feedback harm in no load cruise?

Please don't forget the source for the $15 O2's.

[FLTRI]

Any air-cooled performance engine I have tuned stuck in traffic doesn't rely on closed loop cruise mapping for fueling. I open loop tune it for best cooling down there...stuck in traffic.

Please explain to us the reasons for your opinion that multigas is what is needed to tune a bike to its full potential.

As I mentioned many months ago I was working with a multigas mfg company but they were unsucessful at speeding up the sample-to-display rate to something I, as a tuner, felt could effeciently use that didn't need 8-10 hrs tuning time ONLY due to slow response-to-reading times @ steady state, especially when tuning the big inch high compression, high heat builds.

Also Mark Dobeck (Dynojet founder, Power Commander guru, etc) contracted this same  company a while back to build a multigas that would be fast enough to use effectively and practically to use with their 250i and car dynos. No success there either.

I know all the propaganda that comes from Factory folks...they are obviously using the negative selling techniques that completely turned me off when I was in the market a few years ago.

As always, JMHO,
Bob

[Steve Cole]

This is all an interesting take you guys have on this. The original thread refers to a mulitgas tune.
Your argument is running closed loop is not using the best tools available. So I suppose that you would think it better to turn your tune over to a set of 15 dollar narrow band 02 sensors and an ecm that can potentially degrade the tune by way of adaptive fuel rather than run a bike than has been tuned using the best knowledge and tuning tools(multigas) available.
BTW, the "chicken little" reference made, that's not the sky falling it just the tuner manufacturer's bull"Potty mouth" continually being dropped on us.

These are just the same old BS post from the the one claiming "Allergic to Bull"Potty mouth"." only problem is you are the one spreading most of it! How about you show us where you have the equipment and/or knowledge to prove a thing you say.

Look, Closed Loop works great when done properly and trying to say that it doesn't is just the same old guys with there head buried in the sand. There is not one OEM level manufacture world wide that doesn't use it and make big power on engines  with much more displacement than HD or any of the aftermarket guys are building. Funny thing is they warranty those engines for 50- 100 thousand miles too! They have been doing it for over 25 years this way too.

So why is it that a poor old 2 cylinder engine cannot run at roughly have the power output for the same displacement in closed loop and live without issues? The problem is NOT with Closed Loop but the lack of understanding of how to find and fix the problem is.

Why? because they are an air cooled engine subject zero cooling when stuck in traffic. The references you use I would assume are a liquid cooled motor. No doubt a liquid cooled motor can be run at much higher afr than even the stock lean HDs
As for the talk of 02 placement and bung length etc. not all of the factory pipes meet the bosch specs yet they work. Like I have said before, open exhaust, high overlap cams etc can wreak havoc on an 02 sensor sample no matter what bung length or location. There are also things that you cannot count on based on 02 feedback alone, that is where the multigas stuff has a MAJOR advantage.  Incomplete combustion will have not only fuel but left over o2 as well, these are the kind of things you can sort out with the multigas.
I do have a question though, is the TTS system capable of creating an excellent running 2002 to 2006 Delphi equiped bike as the system stands? We all know the answer to this is yes so why is it so hard for you to believe that a newer model cannot have the same results?

Well I would expect no less from you, another excuse. The stock 2011 HD bikes run just fine and as for your heat complaint that can be mostly resolve by removing the catalysis from the exhaust. The issue is NOT fuel mixture when set properly in the Closed Loop range. So if you take a HD motor and run it at 12.8 :1 in 70 deg temperatures will it over heat sitting in traffic at idle................. you bet it will! Every figure out what EITMS does for idle in traffic heat? So how is fuel mixture the issue, let alone the fix? Why is it that other engines will sit an idle all day long at 14.68 and never over heat? Stop blaming things you do not understand and start finding the problem and fix it! Rich fuel mixture is NOT the answer

A 4 gas or 5 gas bench is not all what you think it is, but since you have little to no test equipment I can see why you think it is better. Truth is anything is better than nothing, and the more you have the more you should learn but each and everything has it's better points and a 4 gas is no different. IT'S NOT THE END ALL BE ALL, not even close! It also is not going to make a better tune.

As for making the newer bikes (2007- up) get excellent results when tuning it's done daily with Closed Loop by people all across the world, so why is it only a few of you cannot seem to get it done!

[mayor]

as entertaining as I find the off topic parts of this thread , I feel the need to remind some of you folks that we need to be respective of each others opinions.  Let's keep the dialogue civil fellows. 

[Steve Cole]

Running an engine richer just means it is less efficient,

less efficient = less power per molecule of fuel,

less power per molecule of fuel = less heat per molecule of fuel,

less heat per molecule of fuel = less fuel economy!

Power is nothing more than heat and how well the engine converts that heat into mechanical energy is a big deal. So if above is how you think you should coverup the problem have at it. There are much better ways to deal with things than this, one needs to only learn how.

[Jeffd]

damn I am lucky.  My bike (2011 rgu 103) still has cats (my choice not to remove them) gets freakin 50mpg and is not excessively hot by any standards I am used to.  I expect a 103" air cooled motor to put off some heat. 

[Sporty 48]

No mention of a little timing advance at idle to cool engine temps.
Does that work?

When people believe strongly in what they are saying they get excited if challenged.
The learning here is in challenging existing beliefs and defending them.

Went for a ride today rural northern Pennsylvania-Corning, NY, windy, warm, nutty Friday afternoon drivers, sweet, sweet sporty.

[Steve Cole]

Timing just as fuel control when used properly will help a lot with heat. There is a point where no amount of fuel and no amount of timing is going to help anymore. It is the proper combination of everything working together that makes the engine as efficient as it can. The proper balance of the engine control system is what's needed to balance the total overall output.

Jeffd is just another perfect example of a balanced system, good power, good mileage= happy customer!

[BVHOG]

Any air-cooled performance engine I have tuned stuck in traffic doesn't rely on closed loop cruise mapping for fueling. I open loop tune it for best cooling down there...stuck in traffic.

Please explain to us the reasons for your opinion that multigas is what is needed to tune a bike to its full potential.

As I mentioned many months ago I was working with a multigas mfg company but they were unsucessful at speeding up the sample-to-display rate to something I, as a tuner, felt could effeciently use that didn't need 8-10 hrs tuning time ONLY due to slow response-to-reading times @ steady state, especially when tuning the big inch high compression, high heat builds.

Also Mark Dobeck (Dynojet founder, Power Commander guru, etc) contracted this same  company a while back to build a multigas that would be fast enough to use effectively and practically to use with their 250i and car dynos. No success there either.

I know all the propaganda that comes from Factory folks...they are obviously using the negative selling techniques that completely turned me off when I was in the market a few years ago.

As always, JMHO,
Bob

You don't have to read too far to see that the factory pro guys have an axe to grind with the other manufacturer, definitely some history there.
But explain to me what difference it makes if the sample gathered takes a bit longer to read , whether sampling 02 data or multi gasses you still need to let the bike stabilize during steady state tuning.
If you are data logging you simply read the Throttle position vs rpm (or map) and make your adjustments to the tuning software at shutdown. The only time I could see this being a problem is with a real time tuning device and since the best tuning devices out there are not real time I don't see this as a problem.
So I suppose from reading all these posts that I should assume that a system using a narrow band sensor and only sampling approximately 80 % of the running conditions is superior to a well seasoned and experienced tuner using a 4 gas system. Give me a break!!!
Hardtail, how about free sensors? between stroker and myself I am sure we can gather up a pile of slightly used ones for you. No guarantee on how long they will last though.

[HogMike]

damn I am lucky.  My bike (2011 rgu 103) still has cats (my choice not to remove them) gets freakin 50mpg and is not excessively hot by any standards I am used to.  I expect a 103" air cooled motor to put off some heat.

I'm running my 103 at 1Lambda (14.68) and it's running great! Yes it heats up at stop lights on hot days, but, not that bad.
I wanted to run at this setting in closed loop, over varying conditions (including pulling my trailer) just to see what kind of mileage and power I have.
Dyno shows 100/100 +- and the bike exhibits excellent road manners......which was my goal from the start!
I'm finally done with this one, my next bike's tune will start with the map I have on this one, and the build will be very similar, just bigger!
JMHO.....so.......no bashing, please!

[Steve Cole]

Any air-cooled performance engine I have tuned stuck in traffic doesn't rely on closed loop cruise mapping for fueling. I open loop tune it for best cooling down there...stuck in traffic.

Please explain to us the reasons for your opinion that multigas is what is needed to tune a bike to its full potential.

As I mentioned many months ago I was working with a multigas mfg company but they were unsucessful at speeding up the sample-to-display rate to something I, as a tuner, felt could effeciently use that didn't need 8-10 hrs tuning time ONLY due to slow response-to-reading times @ steady state, especially when tuning the big inch high compression, high heat builds.

Also Mark Dobeck (Dynojet founder, Power Commander guru, etc) contracted this same  company a while back to build a multigas that would be fast enough to use effectively and practically to use with their 250i and car dynos. No success there either.

I know all the propaganda that comes from Factory folks...they are obviously using the negative selling techniques that completely turned me off when I was in the market a few years ago.

As always, JMHO,
Bob

You don't have to read too far to see that the factory pro guys have an axe to grind with the other manufacturer, definitely some history there.
But explain to me what difference it makes if the sample gathered takes a bit longer to read , whether sampling 02 data or multi gasses you still need to let the bike stabilize during steady state tuning.
If you are data logging you simply read the Throttle position vs rpm (or map) and make your adjustments to the tuning software at shutdown. The only time I could see this being a problem is with a real time tuning device and since the best tuning devices out there are not real time I don't see this as a problem.
So I suppose from reading all these posts that I should assume that a system using a narrow band sensor and only sampling approximately 80 % of the running conditions is superior to a well seasoned and experienced tuner using a 4 gas system. Give me a break!!!
Hardtail, how about free sensors? between stroker and myself I am sure we can gather up a pile of slightly used ones for you. No guarantee on how long they will last though.

First off you would have to know/be a well seasoned and experienced tuner 

Then once you go that far the person doing the tuning would already know that a 3 - 6 second delay for the first reading then waiting for it to settle down 3- 5 seconds more in time is a long time at each and every data point. You have complained all along that it needs to be much quicker with O2 sensors but now that we have proven again that the gas meters are slower, you change your tune again. Do you think a gas meter runs without issue? Do you think it doesn't have to get calibrated? Do you think it cannot give false readings? If you do then you are sadly mistaken. Gas bench's are a pain in the butt when it comes right down to it but they do somethings very nicely, so pick your poison. So now were down to no perfect one piece of test equipment so you had better have a few different pieces that do different things well so they complement one another. This is just why a lab has all the various pieces of test equipment!

Your pot shots at our system have really gotten old and each time another customer gets it done must really send you screamin. Bottom line is what we provide has done a better job than most of what is on the road today, is it perfect NO and we never said it was. Is it better than what you've put out the door, you bet ya, but it's only a tool and my Dad always said a poor craftsman always blames his tools! Guess he was right.

[hrdtail78]

It's spin.  I use $150 BB sensors and they are better than the $15 ones.  They have to be, right?  I pay $135 more.  Or I use $87 BB sensor instead of $43 ones. Honest, but doesn't have the impact.  Every tune I have done I have used BB's.  Some, I use both.  Price doesn't worry me as much as using the sensor correctly and for the correct application.

[hrdtail78]

BTW  Mailing Address:
C&S Speed Shop
4802 Old Missouri Ave
Alorton Ill. 62207

You don't have to mail them.  Feel free to stop by anytime.  Face to face debates are always better.  I'll buy lunch.