T-max or TTS..where am I going wrong with my build

[Grizz317]

Trying not to be fanatical w/ dyno numbers but want all my motor has in it. Two very reputable motor builders have told me my numbers are low and should make closer to 115/115
Dave Mackie Megasphere 103 10.5:1  192 ccp
DME 598 cams
Baisley roller rocker conversion 1.7/1.62
HPI fbw 54mm  T/B Zippers Maxflo AC
Darkhorse bottom end w/usa made rods
D&D fatcat w/ standard baffle
Thundermax tuner
w/ stock TB 105hp/100tq
After HPI rework 108hp/101tq
I have learned a lot in the last year about these motors but far from genius, relying on people that are. In my quest for answers was told that tuning with a TTS will yield more power than a t-max. Anyone else ever find this to be true?? Before I scrap the t-max and buy a TTS would really love some input
PS- For the money I have in this build I am kickin myself in the a$$ for not going to a 117

[HogBag]

 I have read the cable operated throttle body bikes are pulling 10 to 15% more Power  then the fly by wire bikes. Maybe thats what is happening with your build. Hopefully one of the engine builders will let you know where the bottle neck might be.
Good luck.

[BVHOG]

I have not really seen much of a difference between the tbw bikes vs the cable bikes after a proper tune. I feel your torque numbers are a bit low for that combo but you haven't stated if these are dynojet numbers or another model dyno or how the torque line flows.
As far as the T-max vs the stock ecm with a TTS, no question the TTS but more importantly the stock ecm is more than capable and has many features the T-max can't compare to. 
Will the TTS system gain drive-ability? I would say definitely.  Will it change your peak numbers? Only one way to find out.

[Grizz317]

Having trouble posting the sheet so I just took a picture of the paper copy. I am not worried about numbers, I'm concerned that there is something not right in the build and that it should have more power than it does now. Any critiques on the sheet??

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[mayor]

In my quest for answers was told that tuning with a TTS will yield more power than a t-max. Anyone else ever find this to be true?? Before I scrap the t-max and buy a TTS would really love some input

IMO, there should be little difference between the wide open throttle output of a properly tuned T-max bike compared to a properly tuned TTS bike.  Keep in mind, you're only dealing with two variables- timing and air/fuel ratio. The trick is to get the those two variables to be in the right range.  This is not done auto-magically with either system, both require user adjustments to get the those two variables dialed in on a particular engine. The advantange the T-max gives is it will dial in the fuel pretty good, but the end user has to tell the auto-tune module where you want the afr to be.  With that said, as BV points out there's some features of the stock ecm that the t-max doesn't have and those features do improve drive-ability.

It's very difficult for anyone to look at a dyno sheet and know exactly what might or might not cause the numbers to be low. One thing to keep in mind is not all dyno's read the same, so try not to get too wrapped up in the wide open throttle numbers. The thing to look at is the general shape of the curve.  You can usually see blatant tuning issues like too little fuel or incorrect timing by what the line looks like.  In your case the line looks smooth, so there's nothing blatant there.  The other thing to look at is your tq line created a hp biased number, this could be related to the build particulars or it could be due to timing.  There is no way to know which by just looking at this sheet.  You need to compare the shape of the curve to the shape in similar builds (specfically same cam builds in the same engine size).  If your tq curve is flatter in the mid rpm's compared to other similar builds, then you likely need to adjust the timing.  The tricky part, is knowing which way it needs adjusted.  IMO most T-max maps I've seen have too advanced timing in the heavy throttle ranges, so if you made no adjustments that's probably where you should look. 

It looks like the reported afr is leaner than the reference line, but with the scaling on the afr readout I can't tell how much leaner.  I've had mixed results on how close the dyno sniffer results were compared to the set afr on the T-max, since the T-max o2 sensors.  I tend to believe the dyno sniffer more than the T-max o2 sensors, since don't exactly live in an environment that prolongs life or accuracy of an o2 sensor.  Most of the time, the sniffer reads 1/2 afr leaner than the set point.  Meaning if your goal is 13.5, you need to set the afr in the heavier throttle ranges to 13.0.  I personally run a set point of 13.021 afr on the heavier throttle ranges on my T-max map, but you may want to run a richer setting depending on how close your set point matched the dyno sniffer readings.  I don't think that running a setting of 12.789 would be too far out of line. 

Setting the timing on a T-max is tricky.  I think most T-max base maps have too little timing in the early tps range and too much in the heavy throttle range.  There is no knock retard feature on the T-max ECM, so there is no obvious data point to tell the end user that they are over advanced.  The problem the end user has in adjusting timing is the better the combustion effeciency, the less timing the engine needs and the smaller the window for correct timing is.  Things like higher compression and tighter squish adds effeciency.  This is a general indication that if your build has a tighter squeeze than the build the base map was developed for, you need to reduce the heavy throttle timing. 

It looks like there is multiple runs listed on the chart, was there any adjustments made in afr or timing to the T-max map based in conjunction with the dyno readings?  If not, that's what you should do before deciding to get rid of what you have.  I like both systems (TTS and Tmax), but keep in mind neither system is a drop in auto-magical system so user adjustments are needed to get the most out of any build.

hth,
mayor