Ion knock detection sensitivity

[turboprop]

Has anyone verified any of this on a timing light with a crank that has been properly indexed/degreed?

Got any idea how to accomplish that?
HD ceased offering a timing hole over 10 years ago with the introduction of the TC.
Bob

Pull the primary cover, make TDC marks on the rotor and inner case.

[Rider57]

When you change the engine size or combustion chamber or “camshaft timing” those values might in some areas be close enough to function, but it doesn’t surprise me that you would either get “false” retard, or failure to detect real detonation under some speed and loads!

This is the closest answer to my earlier question concerning Ion sense and modified motors. I have been contemplating the sensitivity issue and will throw this out for discussion. By increasing spark plug gap that would effectively increase the resistance for the ion sense in the combustion chamber and help reduce false fast retard events on modified motors? Has any one experimented with that and what was the results.

Does it work? Yes, but not all the time. CR was the major stumbling block. At about 10.0:1 the "trick" didn't work as well.
Above 10.5:1 it didn't work at all.
I have used this on EVOs and Twinkies many times with good results.
Experimentation is about the only way to find out on any particular build.

Is it related to compression ratios or cylinder pressure? Ccp can vary a fair amount depending on cam at same compression, yes?

I never looked into that far. Could one or the other or both.
I just wanted to eliminate det / ping.

[mike 120]

When I was street tuning ( dangerous) with TSII, I would run a data log using SERT and could never eliminate ion sensor pulling out timing, tried everything but could not eliminate it, I came to the conclusion my ccp was too high (210) and turned it off, never heard it, and plugs never had any indication of detonation. They are probably calibrated for near stock ccp, and when that is exceeded by a certain percentage your on your own IMO.
Mike

[FBRR]

BVhog,
The reason you get decimal values in spark when the tables values are whole numbers, the software interpolates between table break points. Some tables do not interpolate and some do! Spark and fuel tables (main MAP tables) do interpolate!

[BVHOG]

In reading Adam Wade's book on fuel injection he mentions that the spark plugs can degrade over time and affect the operation of the ion sensing.

[FLTRI]

...spark plugs can degrade over time and affect the operation of the ion sensing.

That's right! So you can just imagine when the wrong spark plug (resistance) is used.

This is why we insist on either the stock TC plug or the V-Rod plug (1 heat range cooler)...any other plug and all bets are off...unless the knock sensing is disabled...then it's all about not maximizing timing/power 'cause you can't rely on good gas.

Bob

[autoworker]

My initial thinking is that ION sensing sensitivity would be same across all maps.

However,after some time it dawned on me....the factory 110's run over 210 psi ccp and I'm assuming ION ensing isn't pulling timing.So maybe it is map specific to a certain degree.

I have witnessed it  ION sensing kick in on a couple 103 builds while they were being tuned and the threshold for it to activate was near 200 psi. ccp.

I guess a tuner could load a 110 map in a bike that has the ION sensing kicking in on a different,say 103 in. map and see what happens.

do I know?

[cts1950]

I guess that Steve is the only one that knows that answer. Dose the tts maps change the Ion sense look up table that is programed in to the ecm? Or is it in a table tts can not access, and only programmable by the original code loaded in by HD either by vin at the dealer or at the factory.

[WVULTRA]

...spark plugs can degrade over time and affect the operation of the ion sensing.

That's right! So you can just imagine when the wrong spark plug (resistance) is used.

This is why we insist on either the stock TC plug or the V-Rod plug (1 heat range cooler)...any other plug and all bets are off...unless the knock sensing is disabled...then it's all about not maximizing timing/power 'cause you can't rely on good gas.

Bob

Bob:

Would you mind sharing what conditions/builds you would recommend the V-Rod plug for?  Or would this be determined while the bike was on your Dyno?

Thanks,

[Don D]

factory 110's run over 210 psi ccp and I'm assuming ION ensing isn't pulling timing

OK but they have a base timing map that is very slow total and rate, when modified they are chronic offenders in all states of tune.
Once again I would ask Steve Cole to allow some more control of this function similar to what was done with the "EGR" and intake timing functions.

[FLTRI]

factory 110's run over 210 psi ccp and I'm assuming ION sensing isn't pulling timing

OK but they have a base timing map that is very slow total and rate, when modified they are chronic offenders in all states of tune...

Don,
Are you saying the timing mapping TTS has developed for the 110's works and doesn't induce detonation but when modified, creates detonation issues?

IME the base timing mapping from TTS and SESTP do not cause detonation and the tuner must be careful how, where, and why changes are made to the developed baseline timing mapping.

Head grooves will reduce CCR/detonation a bit by the additional CC's

Bob

[Don D]

Hell NO
The stock 110 timing maps are retarded. The man was talking the stock 110 at 210 psi so I commented on the stock map

When the motors are modified the combustion pressures and turbulence happen and why wouldn't that be the case?, the compression and other conditions are not the same as a stock motor the ion sensing is meant to work with. In the case of a 110 the  intake air stream is very close to the plug tip. Different values would be expected from a non-stock motor. To my knowledge nothing is changed in either the TTS or the SEST with regards to ion sense values behind the scenes and there are no software controls as you know.

110 heads get no grooves here, and on a bathtub mine are .4cc per head

[cts1950]

It seems that more than just a few have problems with ions sense issues. I owner a 103' motor that I have not been able to tune out the fast retard events. I have owned the TTS system from early 2008 bought from DOC and have spent a lot of time and money upgrading my 1999 ultra to use the TTS system a new 2007 ecm and wire harness and all the other components. I even own two obsolete racetuners that can't be upgraded and the old ecms that go with them sitting on the shelf of shame along with my DTT ecm and wegoII and PCIII and Terry's components self tuner. I am not interested in reverse engineering your system. I have given up trying to chase them because I am unable to hear any ping or knock, they seem to be false events and I  have resorted to turning the knock retard to .25 degrees of retard just so it will flag the event. I have even reduced my timing to lower than 12* and it still triggers the fast retard, and with that I give up plenty of power and economy and turned my pipes blue with no improvement with the fast retard. So a straight question to you Steve. Will using a 110 " map trimmed down to 103" in the tuning constants reduce the sensitivity of the ion sense? Or is that too much to ask.

[Coyote]

I'm having the same issues with my 103 tune. Mostly on the front cyl. Mayor has spent a lot of time helping me but the problem persists on my DM recordings. This was a 70 mile run today. Kinda ugly, huh? Green is the rear and the other the front pulled timing. I have a ST to try but I really wanted to get the best results I could with the TTS before I switched. BTW, I'm never once heard any pinging today yet I'm sure I lost performance with it pulling 8 degs at times.



[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[autoworker]

I'm having the same issues with my 103 tune. Mostly on the front cyl. Mayor has spent a lot of time helping me but the problem persists on my DM recordings. This was a 70 mile run today. Kinda ugly, huh? Green is the rear and the other the front pulled timing. I have a ST to try but I really wanted to get the best results I could with the TTS before I switched. BTW, I'm never once heard any pinging today yet I'm sure I lost performance with it pulling 8 degs at times.

Disable it and enjoy the power that isn't being taken away.You are smart enough to detect ping.

[Coyote]

I'm having the same issues with my 103 tune. Mostly on the front cyl. Mayor has spent a lot of time helping me but the problem persists on my DM recordings. This was a 70 mile run today. Kinda ugly, huh? Green is the rear and the other the front pulled timing. I have a ST to try but I really wanted to get the best results I could with the TTS before I switched. BTW, I'm never once heard any pinging today yet I'm sure I lost performance with it pulling 8 degs at times.

Disable it and enjoy the power that isn't being taken away.You are smart enough to detect ping.

I don't disagree but something isn't going as planned. 

[mayor]

I really don't think any of us here have the ability or the desire to put out a tuner to go into competition with yours, most just wan't to know the why's of what is happening with the existing setup.  A simple answer like, "yes, some cals are more sensitive than others" or " it makes no difference between cals" I really don't give a chit about all the geek chit you do inbetween.

[autoworker]

[/quote]

I don't disagree but something isn't going as planned. 
[/quote]

Have you done compresssion test?If not,I would just to eliminate high compression as a factor contributing to ion sensing pulling timing.

[Sporty 48]

Steve,
1. TTS is still the best tuner.
2. Disappointed to read this. You are most definitely in the business to tune bikes.
3. Or your product will soon be replaced.

............................
I am also not in the business of tuning bikes, I get what we need to develop the tuning software each time there are changes made. Those bikes are tuned for free as the customer allowed us to use there bike during development. Those base calibrations are released with the product. Other calibrations come along as we help our customers get something running correctly. The job of getting tuned bikes is left up to you tuners that are charging people. The fact that we have a large base of calibration done around SE parts should be of no surprise to anyone after all thats who we worked with for years and who also out sells all the others combined.

[Coyote]

Coyote found a mistake I have made in a calibration so it has been removed until I can figure out what happened. So for all you out there please delete the ETA044-03 calibration. We will release a new one once the problem has been corrected.

Actual Mayor found the discrepancy while helping me.

[hrdtail78]

...spark plugs can degrade over time and affect the operation of the ion sensing.

That's right! So you can just imagine when the wrong spark plug (resistance) is used.

This is why we insist on either the stock TC plug or the V-Rod plug (1 heat range cooler)...any other plug and all bets are off...unless the knock sensing is disabled...then it's all about not maximizing timing/power 'cause you can't rely on good gas.

Bob

Bob,

I have had success with AL 4164 and to go a step cooler I use the 4162.  On higher compression I like to close the gap a bit.  When you talk stock?  Do you mean champion or stock replacement?

Thanks,
Jason


Don't be so naive to think people are not on this site trying to copy Steve's products.  I now there are members that have tried to hack TTS.  If they post are not.  Where is Charles Chastin, or Dan from DJ.  Jamie comes here once in awhile.  Haven't seen him post to much about the behind the scene stuff. Cris from DTT? What about Brian?  Lot more in between but let's not leave out MoCo.  Whats the contact number for them.

We could even look at head porters or cam manufactures.  I have read, looked at many cam cards.  A lot of info missing there.  You can send them out to people that bought extra equipment.  Larry has a nice machine for that.

Ever wonder through pits?  Now some of these guys love to talk about what they are doing, but ask a specific.  "Which cutter do you use on you seat?"  Blank stare...  "What cam you running?"....  The answer I have always liked is "I can't remember which one is in there now.  I have tried so many."  But all of these guys will share info with you freely.  Doesn't mean they will share all their info freely.

[BVHOG]

To make it much simpler I should have started the thread asking specifically what combustion conditions can cause false ignition retard in the Delphi software, after all, it is not TTS, Direct link, or Powervisions system to begin with.
Here is a paragraph from the Wade book speaking about ion sensing and misfires.

Since ion sensing can easily detect misfire, it can be used to send a signal to the main ECU informing it that the mixture has been leaned too far and to compensate; thus it can allow an ECU to run right at the edge of lean misfire without a loss of economy, or damage to the catalytic converter.
By itself it would be a relatively low computing power addition, and it is used on a number of production cars today. (Mainly to allow low emissions to the vehicle or drivability problems.)
It is one of the primary advantages of ion sensing, from the standpoint of technology to meet emissions regulations (the OBD II specifies a method for recording and, ideally, preventing misfires prior to ion sensing , a fairly crude system of reading changes in crank angle speed and analyzing it with a high speed dedicated chip has been used; it results in a lot of false misfire detections, which can then result in a lot of "check engine" lights with no actual fault in the injection or ignition system) Harley Davidson has already incorporated this development on its Delphi ECU-equipped models.

So, what does this all mean? Does the crank postion sensor and it's ability to read accurately as well as possibly injector timing have affects on ion sensing?
I read the "preventing misfires before the ion sensing " to mean there may be other factors causing timing to be reduced without input from the ion sensing at all.
My personal feelings is that the mixture itself,( whether overall rich or lean) will have a huge affect on the ion sensing making it much more important to have a good homogeneous mixture (whether overall rich or lean)and a correct combustion chamber shape and squish area to prevent lean and rich spots within different areas of the combustion chamber itself.   I also feel there is a very good reason that we do have the ability to simply turn off the ion sensing function. Imagine what happens to your air speed and subsequently the overall mixture through the short little intake tract when you twist that 58mm wide open beyond what the motor wants.
Most of us can only sample the left over 02 within the exhaust gas and when a lean or rich misfire happens there can be both leftover fuel and 02.  The 02 will read only what it can(oxygen) and the resulting data will only show lean when in fact it could have been a rich misfire.
And..................that's where the 4gas has a major advantage.

[cts1950]

The Ion sense circuit is the same in all calibrations but the calibration of it is not. How why and when it's allowed to work along with what it's looking for changes based on the build of the bike.

So let me be more specific in my question. This thread is about the sensitivity of the ion detection system. The question has been repeatedly asked can any thing be done about reducing it's sensitivity on engine builds with high ccp? You have not specifically answered this question. We understand the ECU is the same part number and use the same circuitry but it is the calibration of the look up tables that are diffrent from bike to bike based on touring or softtails or Dyna's and weather it is a 88", 96", 103" or 110" as calibrated by the mo co. Is the ion sense look up table changed with your calibrations based on each build specified in your calibration listing file or is it left unchanged from the original burning of the code into the ecm and is not changed with the tts calibration. Specify a ecm that left the factory programmed for a 88" motor will flashing it with a tts tune file for a 110" change the ion sense file to match the 110" or is it left unchanged?  I do not know how to ask this question more specifically and I think that is what most people looking at this thread are wanting an answer for.

[hrdtail78]

...spark plugs can degrade over time and affect the operation of the ion sensing.

That's right! So you can just imagine when the wrong spark plug (resistance) is used.

This is why we insist on either the stock TC plug or the V-Rod plug (1 heat range cooler)...any other plug and all bets are off...unless the knock sensing is disabled...then it's all about not maximizing timing/power 'cause you can't rely on good gas.

Bob

Bob,

I have had success with AL 4164 and to go a step cooler I use the 4162.  On higher compression I like to close the gap a bit.  When you talk stock?  Do you mean champion or stock replacement?

Thanks,
Jason

[cts1950]

I will ask again

So let me be more specific in my question. This thread is about the sensitivity of the ion detection system. The question has been repeatedly asked can any thing be done about reducing it's sensitivity on engine builds with high ccp? You have not specifically answered this question. We understand the ECU is the same part number and use the same circuitry but it is the calibration of the look up tables that are diffrent from bike to bike based on touring or softtails or Dyna's and weather it is a 88", 96", 103" or 110" as calibrated by the mo co. Is the ion sense look up table changed with your calibrations based on each build specified in your calibration listing file or is it left unchanged from the original burning of the code into the ecm and is not changed with the tts calibration. Specify a ecm that left the factory programmed for a 88" motor will flashing it with a tts tune file for a 110" change the ion sense file to match the 110" or is it left unchanged?  I do not know how to ask this question more specifically and I think that is what most people looking at this thread are wanting an answer for.



Your lack of answers to this question speaks volumes. I will have to conclude you do not have access to these tables or the equipment necessary to calibrate the ion sense tables for the diffrent  builds. It appears only large company's such as GM,Ford and Mopar  have the necessary test labs and instrumentation to make these kinds adjustments. I guess we have to conclude there is no magic bullet to work out the bugs with high compression engines with the TTS system. All I hear you say is "Don't look behind the green curtain".