TTS help, PLEASE... Version 4.0

[powersmoke]

10-4.
Will do shortly.

[powersmoke]

there is a good bit of chnage happening on that vtune run.  run another vtune using the file you created from that one, and make sure that no codes were thrown during that process. We can regroup from there...
[/quote]

MAyor-
no codes, bike seemd to be running ok. Nothing spectaculur for sure , just average.

Vtune looks alot better though, to my untrained eyes.

I wasnt really sure what I was accomplishing, but prior to loading the map I used the EGR effect graph, and raised or lowered the values to make a smooth arc in the line...I have no idea what it did though.

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[powersmoke]

clearly, I'm missing something--
This looks like crap compared to the others i've seen..

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[Thumper Buttercup]

We are a little a head of you but ours are still changing, we've done about 20 runs and we
have thrown out a few also.  If you look at our post today our peaks are getting better but
the front one is coming a long slower.


Mayor is helping us along, I feel like a blind man with a seeing eye dog so far.

[mayor]

I wasnt really sure what I was accomplishing, but prior to loading the map I used the EGR effect graph, and raised or lowered the values to make a smooth arc in the line...I have no idea what it did though.

clearly, I'm missing something--
This looks like crap compared to the others i've seen..

you are getting ahead of yourself...what you are missing is patience.     you barely made it out of pre-school so far, so stay away from the advanced jr high studies. 

here's the first lesson you need to learn:

Your job as the tuner is to provide the opportunity for the software to collect and evaluate data.  The number one thing to learn to do first is how to develop the most amount of good data as possible in the Datamaster vtune recording so that the Vtune software can create the best possible new calibration.

here's your homework, read this thread from reply #1 to reply #20:
Step by step insructions in laymen terms for TTS please?

that thread will explain how to get the most data you can during the vtune process, which gives the TTS software the best chance of creating a good tune for your bike. 

the egr stuff can wait....

[Jeffd]

Rule #1 and lesson #1 pay attention to Mayor.  Look at my post here
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,42994.0.html
Mayor is a great professor of the mastertune theory.

[powersmoke]

I wasnt really sure what I was accomplishing, but prior to loading the map I used the EGR effect graph, and raised or lowered the values to make a smooth arc in the line...I have no idea what it did though.

clearly, I'm missing something--
This looks like crap compared to the others i've seen..

you are getting ahead of yourself...what you are missing is patience.    

I assure you--
NOT the first time Ive heard that...

blame it on my ADD....

I do hear ya, though..Hell, I read that post line for line before I rode home tonight!

So--I take your post to mean, keep riding?
I have no problems with that!

Tell me this, though--or it may be  better to say, correct me if im wrong--
(Im trying to wrap my head around whats going on beind the scenes)

A base map tells the ECM that this particular configuration on this particular bike has:
a cylinder volumetric efficency of (X) at RPM (A)  when there is a MAP pressure of (B). Meaning there is a know amount of fuel and air that will fit inside at those variables.
Then based on that VE (the front or rear VE tables in mastertune), the ECM calculates that, based on the desired Air/Fuel Ratio in the tables, the amount of oxygen assumed to flow through the throttle body based on the Mass air reading,  barometric pressure and temperature,  and the amount of oxygen being read by the o2 sensors, a metered amount of gasoline needs to be injected to maintain the lambda requested....
Close?

Soooo.....by riding and collecting the data for the Vtune process, a variance is calculated for MY specific cylinders and configuration (actual VE), that produces an adjustment factor for the base map VE, to allow the ECM it to still achieve the desired Air/Fuel ratio...

Of course this is simplified--I know I left out spark and Egr and all the other crap--but Im not an engineer!

My question is-what are the numbers in the Vtune file? a percentage? An arbitrary number assigned to the variance?
Can i reasonably say-- based on this data ride, its determined that my front cylinder is 75% less efficent @ (A / B) than the base map.
Or is it more of, based on this data ride, it is determined that my front cylinder needs 56% less fuel at 1500 rpms and 2500kPi?

What do the VTune numbers mean??!!!

[mayor]

My question is-what are the numbers in the Vtune file? a percentage? An arbitrary number assigned to the variance?
Can i reasonably say-- based on this data ride, its determined that my front cylinder is 75% less efficent @ (A / B) than the base map.
Or is it more of, based on this data ride, it is determined that my front cylinder needs 56% less fuel at 1500 rpms and 2500kPi?

What do the VTune numbers mean??!!!

in simpliets terms: when you are vtuning, you set the desired lambda/afr to a certain fixed point (this is a constant) and the software calculates the volumetric effeciency (the variable) based on how much fuel is needed to achieve the fixed afr based on the engine displacment (this is a constant).  Quite simply, if the software knows how much fuel it takes for x displacment to achieve y desired afr (based on collected o2 data), then it can calculate the amount of air that is in the engine (based on the desired lambda or afr ratio).  The percentage comes in based on 100% being the fixed volume of air that the engine would displace, and inertia of the cylinder process is how the engine can hold more air than it's actual volume (packing 6# of stuff in a 5# bag).  One key point, the ve numbers listed are not necassarily real numbers....they are calculated and there are other calculations (EGR for example) in the ECM that make the VE calulation shades of gray rather than black and white.

[mayor]

So--I take your post to mean, keep riding?
I have no problems with that!

well, yes and no.  What I suggest you do is ride with more purpose.  The thing you want to do is fill in the lambda histogram as much as you can while you are vtuning.  If you do well with the histogram, the VE's will fall in line. 

[powersmoke]

So--I take your post to mean, keep riding?
I have no problems with that!

well, yes and no.  What I suggest you do is ride with more purpose.  The thing you want to do is fill in the lambda histogram as much as you can while you are vtuning.  If you do well with the histogram, the VE's will fall in line.

:wink:gotcha....

Then stick around close by, cause Im gonna be a 30minutes-at-a-time riding fool tomorrow!!!!

seriously, thanks for your time.
It is appreciated.

[wurk_truk]

I agree with Mayor.  You ARE getting too far ahead of yourself.

First order of business is to be able to Consistently fill a histogram out almost ALL green.  This, then, becomes your 'riding style' for future tuning adventures.  Until you can green out a histogram, you are pissing into the wind and doing no true good.

It's either garbage in and garbage out or good data in and good data out kinda thing.

Also, base maps are just close generic maps that truly have no bearing upon much.  A starting point, if you will.  A power commander or fuelmoto map will be fairly close for those applications, but on TTS... just a place to start from.  As much as we are allowed to adjust things, there is that and maybe more things in the ECM that we can NOT adjust.  The base map choices choose how THOSE settings are handled.

Then, while you are dialing in your good histograms, the part you posted with the white, pinks, and yellows is simply a percentage of change from the last tune run you did.  The idea is to get that percentage of change down as close to zero as possible (but zero really isn't possible, it will fluctuate a teeny bit).

Once you get a couple back-to-back zero rides and tunes in, is when I, ME, like to start messing with crap like EGR and timing.  Mayor probably does it different and most likely a better way, but I like to SEE where the bike is at and where it struggles with tuning BEFORE I mess with it.

Cam tool is NOT what I bitched for, but it DOES work fine.  Cam tool adjusts some of those hidden settings we cannot access.  If one does the cam tools and v-tunes idle... and the idle is now nice and crisp and the MAP is reading nice, THEN tune the rest.

EGR tool is a bit more subjective...  making a bike ride 'nice' and smooth.  So far, I am not a big believer in any kind of large changes with EGR tool, just small minimal changes for me.  If the bike WANTS 82 VE here and 97 VE there...  that IS what the bike wants.

A tuning idea to keep in mind...  those cells that we all see...  that is just the human interface we get to use.  The ECM doesn't use it quite like we see it.  Mathematically, all cells are effected by all the cells that touch any given cell.  In my example of 82 and 97... the true representation of that is a very fast ramp and NOT a vertical line at all.  Where EGR tool IS helpful is its real job... smoothing a FEW peaks down.. not the whole mountain.

[powersmoke]

understood---
I was trying to figure out if the vtune tables meant anything in real terms--like a percentage increase or decrease in feul--
I figure it really means an increase or decrease in the engine and mods efficiency in filling the cylinders, and subsequently getting a good clean burn, versus the "model" its being told to work from--the base map. 
So, when Im looking at the front or back VE graph, its not really telling me the red areas are lean and the blue areas are rich, cause that'd be too simple....

Anyway--using the tips mayor provided, this is my VTune from just a bit ago...
I found out it is possible to run 1500 rpms in 5th gear...that Ill ever need to, but I can.

One thing that bothered me today--
I cant be certain, but it sounded like i had a some knocking under load in 5th/6th around 3500-4000....
How would I know?

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[mayor]

power, can you crop your picture down to just the ve tables?  I'm having a hard time reading the numbers. 

[mayor]

understood---
I was trying to figure out if the vtune tables meant anything in real terms--like a percentage increase or decrease in feul--
I figure it really means an increase or decrease in the engine and mods efficiency in filling the cylinders, and subsequently getting a good clean burn, versus the "model" its being told to work from--the base map. 
So, when Im looking at the front or back VE graph, its not really telling me the red areas are lean and the blue areas are rich, cause that'd be too simple....

well, it is trying to tell you something....just not what you think. When the cells are white or light pink, the vtuned caliubration was very close to the vtune derived calibration.  When the cells are darker pink, the recorded calibration and the vtuned calibration aren't quite lined up yet. 

to give you an idea of what the VE's represent in real data: an increment of 20 (10 ve's) is equivalent to 1 afr. 

One thing that bothered me today--
I cant be certain, but it sounded like i had a some knocking under load in 5th/6th around 3500-4000....
How would I know?

attached the cal you are working with.  you might need to trim back some timing in the 80-100 MAP columns in those rpm rows.

[powersmoke]

power, can you crop your picture down to just the ve tables?  I'm having a hard time reading the numbers.

yes sir,be glad to!

hows this?

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[powersmoke]

calibration attached.....


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[powersmoke]

what would cause the advance to fall off from the calibration settings?

I noticed during the data replay, there are a couple of times that the MAP pressure is 70-80, rpm 3500-4000, and the spark advance is showing 16-20.
At those pressures and speeds, the table has a value in the 30s....

[mayor]

what would cause the advance to fall off from the calibration settings?

I noticed during the data replay, there are a couple of times that the MAP pressure is 70-80, rpm 3500-4000, and the spark advance is showing 16-20.
At those pressures and speeds, the table has a value in the 30s....

what you are seeing in the timing tables is not absolute values on what you should see in data recordings.  As wurk mentioned, the ecm uses all surrounding cells to determine what value to use and other tables affect the actual value as well (like spark temperature correction). Get the vtune done, then we can move on to timing......


ok, now let's work on prettying up the 3D ve charts.  Here's tonight's lesson: VE blending. 

open your calibration, and extend the last good information that you recorded (the non-yellow boxes) like so:

the values circled by the blue arrows get extended to each cell to the left, the values circled by the red arrows get extended to the right.  Normally we would extend down too, but someone must have been hauling groceries when they did this run.   

once you extend those cells, vtune the calibration again.  You need to try to get more data in the 1,500-2,000 rpm's.  You are leaving that area a little light in your data collecting, don't be afraid to use 6th gear (should be a light somewhere to tell you when you're in that gear  ).

[powersmoke]

haha....
I was afraid someone was gonna call the cops on me...I was out in the middle of nowhere, but it do make a screamin noise up high
10-


10-4...I'll work on this tonight, and reload in the AM.
I fiigured out how to get the laptop screen on my iphone, so tomorrow should be fun!

You dont see any issues with the timing? Nothin to worry about as far as knocking?

[mayor]

You dont see any issues with the timing? Nothin to worry about as far as knocking?

yes, saw things I didn't like....work off of the attached calibration (it is not extended), and if we can add some of this back in when doing data recordings we will...

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[powersmoke]

10-4.
Ill post the changes in the AM....


I appreciate your time, and effort.
thanks again.

[powersmoke]

yes, saw things I didn't like....work off of the attached calibration (it is not extended), and if we can add some of this back in when doing data recordings we will...
[/quote]

attached the cal you are working with.  you might need to trim back some timing in the 80-100 MAP columns in those rpm rows.
[/quote]

Im just making sure---
But you do realize the calibration i posted was the one i used for the Vtune run--not the latest one Vtune generated from that run..?

Im sure i can implement the Vtune agjustments to the file you posted without messing up what you did, but I wanted you to be aware..

[mayor]

yes, saw things I didn't like....work off of the attached calibration (it is not extended), and if we can add some of this back in when doing data recordings we will...

Im just making sure---
But you do realize the calibration i posted was the one i used for the Vtune run--not the latest one Vtune generated from that run..?

aaah, no....I didn't realize that.  Copy and paste the 75-100 kPa columns on front and rear from the cal I posted into your vtune derived calibration. 

[powersmoke]

Mayor--
I made the VE blending changes last night to the file you up loaded--
I checked the spark tables after and they still carried the adjustments you made...

Unfortunately-- can't do anything about it yet...
My friggin wife was using my laptop on eBay this morning, and spilled a cup of coffee in a
my year-old IBM Thinkpad... 
Soooo.... I'm heading to my office to grab another, and hoping like hell the hard drive didn't get wet. 
Otherwise, I'm sure glad I posted that file last night, or I'd be starting from scratch. 

[Jeffd]

hopefully you have your stock ecm cal in a safe place.