The effects of AFV on open loop areas

[Hilly13]

I used to tell a very cluey bloke on another forum, you can lead a horse to water

[1FSTRK]

Steve I read through the tuning guide again and I do not see any guidelines for defining the size of the closed loop area of a tune.
I looked through many different base cals and I see that you often change the shape and size of the closed loop area from cal to cal.

Do you recommend that these areas not be altered?

If altering the closed loop area is permitted what should I use as a guide line to decide to put a cell into closed loop?

I would assume that the larger the closed loop area the more stable the tune would be not only from the active adjustments of the O2s but also because of a larger sampling area to draw data from for the AFV applied to the open loop cells. 

[Steve Cole]

To get a 6% increase in fuel flow, the formula is

(new pulse width) = ( ( (existing pulse width) - (the injector opening time) )  * (1 + (percentage change desired/100) ) ) + (the injector opening time)

If we start with a BPW of 4 and want 6% for fuel to see if the 02s go fat...  6% would be about a .7 AFR swing

((4-1)*1.06)+1=4.18ms

In the referenced example posted a few posts back the opening time (or dead time per those guys) at 14 volts would be right at 1 ms.  That is very typical for high impedance injectors.  They are all a little non linear below about 2 ms and above about 90% duty cycle.  None of this is news for the tuners that work closely with the programmers.  Most of the programmers that I know have flow benches at home for testing this stuff.

Beast

And this is based on what? An injector that no one knows how it acts or one that you have dreamed up. I given you the truth and you can chose to ignore it or not that's your choice but in the real world the above formula isn't worth the bandwidth used to write it in the post.

You have no way to know to many of the variables that I've pointed out and you have left out many of them from your math. Your math ASSUMES the injector is linear output device, when in fact it is not. Your link clearly shows that in there graphs. So until you include ALL the missing variables your still keyboard playing.

If any two sets of injectors were the same then we could just do a engine calibration on one engine combination and that calibration would work across the board perfect for everyone with that build, nice on paper but does not work in the real world at all, just as your formula may look nice to you but it doesn't work in the real world.

One I forgot to answer was BVhog's comment to blusmbl. Do you have any idea who your talking too here? This guy has more hours on a dyno and doing calibration work than you, strokerjlk and whittlebeast all put together. This is what he does for a living day in and day out. If he wants to talk about it that's up to him but rest assured the old saying of been there done that applies.

As for the uneven firing the O2 could care less. Each O2 is read every firing cycle of the engine on a HD. So provided you install it correctly the O2 is going to give accurate readings each and every firing cycle up to 6000 RPM. You can really go to about 6250 as I recall but 6000 leaves an error of margin. As for the AFV's changing the tune it all goes back to the same old thing. FIX THE PROBLEM UP FRONT AND IT WILL NOT HAPPEN.

That's why I was asking, didn't know who he was and why the personal attack from a stranger, thanks for the info.
As for the test equipment used, you state you have the latest and greatest, exactly what do you have in your shop?  Do you have all the equipment you speak of, are you using an outside source?  You mention it frequently but it would be interesting to hear of the specific test equipment you own and use for cal development. With all this test equipment you have access to you surely know there are much better ways than 02 alone to test the exhaust sample.
Also, It would be interesting to know just how much sharing goes on with an injection system that basically sprays at the valve in an opposite direction of the opposing cylinder. Of course the carbs have that problem but I would assume it to be much less of a problem on an injected bike.
As for the original question in this thread I have to ask why you don't have the option of turning off the afv like the Power Vision does?

To you anytime someone points something that you do not like it's an attack, time to get over it. There are lots of people that I've met through this forum that know very well how things work but are unwilling to post due to the attacks you launch at people. I've never stated anywhere we have the latest and greatest equipment but we have plenty of good equipment here and are able to rent what we need as well. As for turning off the AFV's the first thing that you would need to do is learn how to use it and the second thing would be that the feature we provided must really work. So what good would a feature be if it doesn't work and you have no way to even test for it in the product. IF people quit worrying about AFV's and fixed the real problem there is not a need for it as well.

Steve I read through the tuning guide again and I do not see any guidelines for defining the size of the closed loop area of a tune.
I looked through many different base cals and I see that you often change the shape and size of the closed loop area from cal to cal.

Do you recommend that these areas not be altered?

If altering the closed loop area is permitted what should I use as a guide line to decide to put a cell into closed loop?

I would assume that the larger the closed loop area the more stable the tune would be not only from the active adjustments of the O2s but also because of a larger sampling area to draw data from for the AFV applied to the open loop cells.

The areas that we define to be in Closed Loop operation are done in testing. There is no set area for all builds but general rules do apply. Typically you do not run closed loop in heavy decel areas, those again would be defined by the engine/bike combination. Also we test when to come out of closed loop under load, based on the engine load, engine temperature and exhaust temperature. Typically the larger the area you can run closed loop control in the better the engine will run in all environments. As the weight and size of the vehicle changes it will effect the closed loop area. So what you can do with a FX and what you can do with a trike with the same engine package are different.

There is no way to define what the exact AFR the engine wants to run at just as there is no way to define the exact closed loop area the engine needs.

[1FSTRK]

The areas that we define to be in Closed Loop operation are done in testing. There is no set area for all builds but general rules do apply. Typically you do not run closed loop in heavy decel areas, those again would be defined by the engine/bike combination. Also we test when to come out of closed loop under load, based on the engine load, engine temperature and exhaust temperature. Typically the larger the area you can run closed loop control in the better the engine will run in all environments. As the weight and size of the vehicle changes it will effect the closed loop area. So what you can do with a FX and what you can do with a trike with the same engine package are different.

There is no way to define what the exact AFR the engine wants to run at just as there is no way to define the exact closed loop area the engine needs.

Thanks for the quick reply. I have been reading the method that Mayor uses on the different threads here and there is always that gray area as to adding fuel or subtracting timing. Is that the best process to determine closed loop areas? Do you have any tips on determining which to start with timing or fuel?

[Steve Cole]

Not really good information for you as we use more tools when developing a calibration here that you do not have hooked up and that is where part of the decision comes from. If you can at least get an EGT gauge tied to a cylinder then you could see what's going on at the higher load areas from a temperature standpoint, cylinder head temperature can also help but the stock engine temperature is a little slow. What I would do is ride 2 up with things that you would normally have the bike loaded with and go ride on some flat ground and slight inclines at normal operating speeds. Let that area you've riding in be a start to define the Closed Loop area.

[1FSTRK]

What EGT do I want to see in the higher load areas?

[Steve Cole]

As a general rule of thumb you do not want to exceed 1400 degrees. Now we all know rules are just guidelines and the engine will not fall apart if it goes to 1400 degree's but you had better not stay there very long. At idle you will typically see between 850 - 950. The longer you run with higher EGT's the hotter the head temperature and engine temperature get as well so you need to keep an eye on those too. Airflow across the engine plays a big role in how the heat gets handled. Trikes suck and about the 45 mph range there is little to NO airflow across the engine. Now get on a touring bike with leg guards and the airflow is completely different then one without the leg guards. So what works for one may well not work for another. I personally would have no problem with 1250 degrees all day long PROVIDED the head temperature and engine temperature ran cool enough.

[1FSTRK]

Thanks again Steve that is in line with what I got from the dyno shop for temps.

In reply 126 I proposed a theory of why the dyno tune might be later affected by the AFV in an adverse way. In your reply 129 you kind of address my point although I did not want to debate over which one is more accurate but instead discuss your point of how the dyno O2s can be affected by many things just like the bikes sensors by how they are installed in the pipes. For the purposes of getting my upper throttle and rpm VEs in sync with the V-Tuned VEs so that my AFV will work properly I will be using the dyno after the V-Tune extend. I spoke with the dyno operator and he has assured me that this would not be a problem. My thought is that the final test is to confirm his dyno O2 is in sync with the bike by running the bike at various rpm and loads in the closed loop area to see his equipment match the closed loop AFR. This should insure that any VEs calculated from the dyno O2s would be in line with the ones in the V-tuned area of the table. Next I will have him tune for power by adjusting the AFR and timing the way he always does. I think this should give the best power and the best chance for me to get the most from the AFV applied to the open loop. I am hoping to use the same EGT sensors that he uses on the dyno so that they too will be consistent.

For over a year now I have read and studied this and it always came back to the O2 battle over which was right the dyno or the bike. I now believe they both can be installed and operated wrong. That said if properly installed and synchronized they both could be used to develop all areas of the tune so that it will operate as designed. I guess both Steve and the dyno shop were telling me the same thing all along I was just not hearing what they were saying.

[Steve Cole]

The thing that you need to remember is where are the dyno O2's once you leave and go ride the bike. Right or wrong doesn't much matter at that point as the ECM only see's and works with it's O2's. This is why it is so important to use them, since they are the final answer. Just think about it, the dyno O2 say one thing and the factory O2 and ECM say a different thing, which one do you think is going to win the battle over how the bike runs down the road? This is why I keep saying let it win, I do not care. Once I know where it wants to be then I can make adjustments regardless of what it wants to get it to where I want it to go. The trick is to let the ECM and O2 win, since they always do in the long run anyways. Now I can change the adjustments knowing the ECM and O2 are happy to where I feel it needs to be. Then things work just as they should.

All the tools have there limits and you have to work within those limits as well, so if a dyno O2 has a +/- 8% range you or I have no idea what the real number is. We just know the number we see +/- 8%. Keep that in mind when thinking the ECM is wrong as well. So when you see 13.0 : 1.........

13.0 + 8%=14.04
13.0 - 8%= 11.96

This is the range that the AFR really is provided you know what the base fuel was to start with in the first place. So now does it really matter as long as the bike performs well and does not break parts and overheat?

Let's say that you step up to better equipment than most dyno operators own and get it down to +/- 3% that still gives you

13.0 + 3%= 13.39
13.0 - 3%= 12.61

All this ASSUMES that things are install properly and working properly but I hope it's getting clearer to you all what is really going on. I can tell you the engine doesn't care as long as you keep the ratio close and you do not overheat it.

So if you can run down the road at 14.9, 14.0 or 13.0 without over heating engine temperatures or EGT's the only thing you are going to loose is fuel economy as you go richer. The power output in those ranges is going to be pretty close to the same!

[1FSTRK]

I know the ECM is what counts but because we are reverse engineering are VEs off from
O2 readings and I can’t run closed loop at the top of the table. I need to get that info from some place so the VEs are correct and as long as everything agrees it should work.

[turboprop]

if you are good at deciphering double talk? in between the slander,and name calling , steve actually gives  some very good open loop points 

FYI - Stroker was banned last night as a result of this post. So much I'd like to say but won't.

Cheers Jim, you are one of the best and will be missed. 

[HV]

FYI its a Temp Ban...

[Coyote]

Discuss what you want but personal attacks and baiting will result in a vacation. As HV says, it's only a couple of days for Jim.

[BVHOG]

Temporary? Really?  The end of his message read as follows "This ban is not set to expire"

[wurk_truk]

Good deal on Jim coming back.

My thought is it takes two to tango but invariably only one gets sent to the woodshed.

[Coyote]

Temporary? Really?  The end of his message read as follows "This ban is not set to expire"

Bans are adjusted from no end date to a time period after all the admins have a chance to voice their opinions.

[wurk_truk]

Cool.

[BVHOG]

I will pass that on when I speak with Jim again

[1FSTRK]

The thing that you need to remember is where are the dyno O2's once you leave and go ride the bike. Right or wrong doesn't much matter at that point as the ECM only see's and works with it's O2's. This is why it is so important to use them, since they are the final answer. Just think about it, the dyno O2 say one thing and the factory O2 and ECM say a different thing, which one do you think is going to win the battle over how the bike runs down the road? This is why I keep saying let it win, I do not care. Once I know where it wants to be then I can make adjustments regardless of what it wants to get it to where I want it to go. The trick is to let the ECM and O2 win, since they always do in the long run anyways. Now I can change the adjustments knowing the ECM and O2 are happy to where I feel it needs to be. Then things work just as they should.

All the tools have there limits and you have to work within those limits as well, so if a dyno O2 has a +/- 8% range you or I have no idea what the real number is. We just know the number we see +/- 8%. Keep that in mind when thinking the ECM is wrong as well. So when you see 13.0 : 1.........

13.0 + 8%=14.04
13.0 - 8%= 11.96

This is the range that the AFR really is provided you know what the base fuel was to start with in the first place. So now does it really matter as long as the bike performs well and does not break parts and overheat?

Let's say that you step up to better equipment than most dyno operators own and get it down to +/- 3% that still gives you

13.0 + 3%= 13.39
13.0 - 3%= 12.61

All this ASSUMES that things are install properly and working properly but I hope it's getting clearer to you all what is really going on. I can tell you the engine doesn't care as long as you keep the ratio close and you do not overheat it.

So if you can run down the road at 14.9, 14.0 or 13.0 without over heating engine temperatures or EGT's the only thing you are going to loose is fuel economy as you go richer. The power output in those ranges is going to be pretty close to the same!

I know the ECM is what counts but because we are reverse engineering are VEs off from
O2 readings and I can’t run closed loop at the top of the table. I need to get that info from some place so the VEs are correct and as long as everything agrees it should work.

[HV]

Its actually more then 2 tangoing ..trust me there may be more to come..... 

[autoworker]

Jim is passionate about tuning.He posts here to help others understand tuning the way he sees it.I'm sure he has gained some business from posting here.However,it does not and am sure it will not replace his current carreer for income.His only downfall,in my opinion,is that his true sincerity sometimes overrides his responses.

I personally am tired of tuners,and head porters attacking others on this site in order to stir the pot or maybe even gain business.

I say this having not made one cent from others here.

It used to be fun sharing information and learning from others here.I have also met some very good people here.It seems as if the agendas of some posters have taken some of that away.

I deleted many of my posts today because of recent trends and my personal frustration with some posters and actions here.

I've said my peace.

[Sporty 48]

Caring passionate people can get carried away.
That is one side effect of striving for perfection in a discipline.
Cooling off periods are good, I went hunting for a week, hardly thought about tuning at all.

[Coyote]

Guys, just so you know. This isn't about any one person here. We (and I mean Mayor mostly (he was not the admin that banned jlk)) have been warning some of you about this for some time. And his warnings were coming from the group of admins on this site. Since he often takes care of this board, he took care of the warnings. We know it's a passionate subject. The truth is you can say pretty much what you think it's how you phrase it that's been an issue. There have probably been a lot more posts removed than any of you know about since we get them pretty quickly most of the time.

So we tried the warnings and now we've moved on to giving vacations. Keep the personal crap out and we don't have a problem. Personal attacks show a marked lack of respect and I don't think that's what any of us want. This is just my perspective on things.

[Rider57]

The thing that you need to remember is where are the dyno O2's once you leave and go ride the bike. Right or wrong doesn't much matter at that point as the ECM only see's and works with it's O2's. This is why it is so important to use them, since they are the final answer. Just think about it, the dyno O2 say one thing and the factory O2 and ECM say a different thing, which one do you think is going to win the battle over how the bike runs down the road? This is why I keep saying let it win, I do not care. Once I know where it wants to be then I can make adjustments regardless of what it wants to get it to where I want it to go. The trick is to let the ECM and O2 win, since they always do in the long run anyways. Now I can change the adjustments knowing the ECM and O2 are happy to where I feel it needs to be. Then things work just as they should.

All the tools have there limits and you have to work within those limits as well, so if a dyno O2 has a +/- 8% range you or I have no idea what the real number is. We just know the number we see +/- 8%. Keep that in mind when thinking the ECM is wrong as well. So when you see 13.0 : 1.........

13.0 + 8%=14.04
13.0 - 8%= 11.96

This is the range that the AFR really is provided you know what the base fuel was to start with in the first place. So now does it really matter as long as the bike performs well and does not break parts and overheat?

Let's say that you step up to better equipment than most dyno operators own and get it down to +/- 3% that still gives you

13.0 + 3%= 13.39
13.0 - 3%= 12.61

All this ASSUMES that things are install properly and working properly but I hope it's getting clearer to you all what is really going on. I can tell you the engine doesn't care as long as you keep the ratio close and you do not overheat it.

So if you can run down the road at 14.9, 14.0 or 13.0 without over heating engine temperatures or EGT's the only thing you are going to loose is fuel economy as you go richer. The power output in those ranges is going to be pretty close to the same!

As a case in point.
Most advanced area emissions testing is done with tolerances at 2.5%. And that is considered as "tight"!

[glens]

As a case in point.
Most advanced area emissions testing is done with tolerances at 2.5%. And that is considered as "tight"!

And yet the stock equipment on the stock bike is able to work within that window?  Would it be fair to say that if I had a Dynojet setup in my shed, and/or a TwinScan kit, and I found with either of them a discrepancy relative to what the ECM showed, that I might just be best off going with what the ECM had to say about it?