Tunning for Spark advance

[whittlebeast]

Mayer

If lots of this data off the ECU is total garbage, how do you determine when it is valid and what is total garbage?

Beast

[N-gin]

So, do i Change my AFR table to 13.5 in the 90 Kpa area and change my timing lower?

[whittlebeast]

So, do i Change my AFR table to 13.5 in the 90 Kpa area and change my timing lower?

That question is impossible to answer until you do a data log and see what the bike is doing.  The issue could be the bike is going dead lean up there.  It could be a engine temp issue.  You simply have to look at the data and see what is happening.

Beast

[Steve Cole]

Set the WOT AFR to 13.0 This is to the rich side of things but I would rather be rich in these conditions when starting a tune. Also the fact the engine has the proper squish set up will allow you to run more timing. You need to work one area at a time and not jump all over with timing and fuel when learning. So I would do a quick Spark data only recording (15 minute) to gather enough information to see if you have a pinging issue. If you do then let's make a few quick corrections based on the recording. It would be a waste of time and effort to go out and do hour long recordings. What your looking for is to rough in a safe starting point to then do the fine tune work. Since you already have a few V-tunes under your belt and that's getting closer I would do the spark now just to make sure its safe. Later after we know the spark is safe you will finish the Vtunes.

Start from the tune you have in the bike right now except change the 90 - 100 to 13.0 and record the Spark Data. Then post the recording and the calibration that was in the bike at the time of the recording.

[N-gin]

OK what I did was I studied a lil bit of the tune I had on the dyno day. They measured the AF ratio from the pipe. I have a two into one Thunder Header. See first attachment. From that I Saw that The 100 KPA AFR was rich lower RPMs. So I leaned it out just a tad. I also noticed with some help from another tread from Mayor he pointed out that I was way lean after 3400 RPM and he gave me info how to correct it. So I did. The second attachment is the dyno. The third is the new tune Im going to run for the Generic data and or 02 Data. I made some changes Due to the fact Iv been noteing What the bike does at certain RPM and variing loads. What the plugs are reading, and What you guys have recamended. Is this the best way, No, But it is also not a final tune. Im just basically smoothing some things out so I get good info.
Am I missing something? should I make corrections?

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[N-gin]

Here is the third.
Im heading out to lunch and will be back. I will also have time to hook the bike up So let me know.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[N-gin]

WOW that was a chilly ride.
Attached are the data files.
1-4 I kept loosing signal from the data port. Frickin USB port 


[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[N-gin]

Other two files are too large  :doh:how do I post them!

[N-gin]

This is run 6 the other file is too big to post.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[mayor]

Other two files are too large  :doh:how do I post them!

you can open up a BOX.net account to host them there (and post the link), or see if Glen's zip program reduces it enough in size to post. 

[whittlebeast]

Mayor

If you save the file off somewhere and then change the name back to *.dm3, they come up fine.

N-Gin

Your VEs vs VE News are all over the place implying your bike still needs tuning.

Beast

[Coyote]

Other two files are too large  :doh:how do I post them!

you can open up a BOX.net account to host them there (and post the link), or see if Glen's zip program reduces it enough in size to post.

Or create a folder under Media and upload it there. 

[mayor]

yea, I always forget about that. 

[N-gin]

Lets see if i did it right.....
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/MGalleryItem.php?id=814

[Tsani]

 
This what I see:

ïÿï8RR$=i:3ôã@Ã"uº1ñ{‹Pˆ39§L+’mrPO¬<¤¤”“”Å'$ôÿï9RR$Æ'>i:3ôã@vº1ò{‹Qˆ39¦T+’wtPN«g줤”““Ž#ÿÿï9RR$Æ'?i:3ôã@_wº1 {‹Mˆ39¦¿*’wvML©ó¥¥’Å'$ ÿï9RS#Æ'@i:3ôã@"xº1 {‹M ˆ39§~*’twML§;»¥¥’Š# ÿï9SS#Æ'Ai:3ôã@æxº1 {‹L ˆ39§O*’vwLL¦íÚ¦¦’‰# ÿï9RR#B2_7:3ôã@Â¥yº1 {‹L ˆ39§«*’tuLL¦Ú¦¦’“‰# ÿï9SS#Æ'C2_7:3ôã@gzº1 {‹M ˆ39§M*’vwML§J¤¥¥’’ˆ# ÿï:SS#Æ'D2_7:3ôã@${º1 {‹K ˆ39§Å'*’xuKL¦êÃ'§§’’ˆ# !ÿï:SS#E2_7:3ôã@è{º1 {‹L ˆ39§y*’lsMK¦Sµ¦¦“•‡# (ÿï:SS#Æ'F2_7:3ôã@¯|º1 ){‹J ˆ39§Æ'*’wwJK¢)›§§“”ˆ# 1ÿï:TT#Æ'Gú¤O:3ôã@t}º1 4{‹H ˆ39§K*’xwHK¡ÉŠ©©Å'Æ'# 3ÿï:TT#Æ'Hú¤O:3ôã@.~º1 5{‹H ˆ39§s)’wuHHŸ÷j©©Å'Æ'# :ÿï:TT#Æ'Iú¤O:3ôã@ê~º1 D{‹G ˆ39§s)’wsGHžÃ¥n©©Å'Ž…# :ÿï;TT"Æ'Jú¤O:3ôã@±º1 F{‹F ˆ39§|)’wuEH£ªªÅ'Ž…# Aÿï;UU"Æ'
Kú¤O:3ôã@âºLú¤O:3ôã@Å"â,¬Âº1 L{‹E ˆ39§›(’wwDFâ,,¢²C««

[N-gin]

 
I guess it didnt work.
let me try something else

[N-gin]

Maybe this?
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?action=media;sa=item;in=814

[mayor]

it worked that time.   

[glens]

If lots of this data off the ECU is total garbage, how do you determine when it is valid and what is total garbage?

"Lots of" the data is only total garbage when it's collected and served up in an improper manner.  If your data gathering device is representing that it's collecting data multiple times faster than is possible; is replicating data to fill in the gaps; is not collating it properly.  Stuff like that.

[glens]

If you were to tune with the enleanment and enrichment on wouldn't that cancel the effects it would have on non tuning conditions? Regular riding.
So in other words you would have to further increase the scale to prevent popping on Deaccel and stumbling on added throttle.

Something crossed my mind about this today.  In your example, you've got AE disabled while v-tuning.  Around 3k RPM in the 0 TPS column you've got an abnormal bulge in the VE tables (and who knows what effect anywhere else?) evidently as a result.  In effect, it seems, what you've done (in at least that one area) is to wind up with corrective measures to the baseline which tend to mimic the effects of what the AE would do there were it enabled.  When you later re-enable it, I believe the effect will become too much at least in the one obvious spot in question.  So in this case the concern you expressed above will have appeared in the end when it wouldn't have while taking the alternate route.

I really think this os a preferences thing. Who is to say that the soft ware ignores this during tunning.

When you have the transient fuel enabled while over-the-road v-tune logging, the software will indeed ignore those measures while they serve to provide for smooth(er) short-term, quick(er) transitions.  That's what it's designed to do so those momentary conditions can be dealt with nicely while riding to data-log yet not adversely affect the final result.  This as opposed to what evidently can happen when one attempts to circumvent the overall scheme trying for a few extra hits on the road, especially doing so while operating "blindly".

When you've got the bike on a dyno for generating the v-tune data logs, you can disable the transient fueling and save several seconds per transition, immediately getting to your next target location and drowning out with excellent data any blips you'll pick up from the uncorrected transients.  In my experience on the road, it's a different matter altogether.

Steve's been doing this for a while.  If he's willing to lend a hand, I'd recommend you follow his instructions as best you can.  He's recently asked you do take a "Spark data" log of about 15 minutes duration, with certain AFR values to use while doing it.  It'd be worth your time to try it.

[Doc 1]

If you were to tune with the enleanment and enrichment on wouldn't that cancel the effects it would have on non tuning conditions? Regular riding.
So in other words you would have to further increase the scale to prevent popping on Deaccel and stumbling on added throttle.

Something crossed my mind about this today.  In your example, you've got AE disabled while v-tuning.  Around 3k RPM in the 0 TPS column you've got an abnormal bulge in the VE tables (and who knows what effect anywhere else?) evidently as a result.  In effect, it seems, what you've done (in at least that one area) is to wind up with corrective measures to the baseline which tend to mimic the effects of what the AE would do there were it enabled.  When you later re-enable it, I believe the effect will become too much at least in the one obvious spot in question.  So in this case the concern you expressed above will have appeared in the end when it wouldn't have while taking the alternate route.

I really think this os a preferences thing. Who is to say that the soft ware ignores this during tunning.

When you have the transient fuel enabled while over-the-road v-tune logging, the software will indeed ignore those measures while they serve to provide for smooth(er) short-term, quick(er) transitions.  That's what it's designed to do so those momentary conditions can be dealt with nicely while riding to data-log yet not adversely affect the final result.  This as opposed to what evidently can happen when one attempts to circumvent the overall scheme trying for a few extra hits on the road, especially doing so while operating "blindly".

When you've got the bike on a dyno for generating the v-tune data logs, you can disable the transient fueling and save several seconds per transition, immediately getting to your next target location and drowning out with excellent data any blips you'll pick up from the uncorrected transients.  In my experience on the road, it's a different matter altogether.

Steve's been doing this for a while.  If he's willing to lend a hand, I'd recommend you follow his instructions as best you can.  He's recently asked you do take a "Spark data" log of about 15 minutes duration, with certain AFR values to use while doing it.  It'd be worth your time to try it.

Wrong again Glens....you have it totally backwards....duh...!!!!!!!

[whittlebeast]

Doc please expand your answer.  Personally, I never ride the bike on a dyno.  I tend to ride my bike on the street.

Beast

[glens]

Wrong again Glens....you have it totally backwards....duh...!!!!!!!

You quoted the whole damn post.  I'd said a lot.  Every word was backwards?  Hahaha!  You're going to have to do better than that.  Is your blood sugar a little off this morning?

Guy shows a bulge in the VE tables after v-tuning on the road.  Someone points that out and says "what's up with that?  don't look right".  Another says "yeah, I got that too when doing the same thing; if I do it the other way that don't happen".  First guys says "yeah, me too".

Expound upon that and set me straight if you're of the mind I need it.  Don't just pop in and drop off a whatever that was on your way by.  It ain't worth nothing except to indicate maybe you're mad about something or got a bone to pick.

[mayor]

I'd like to see the vtune runs that made the ve's in those "bulge" areas.  It's entirely possible that those "bulge" areas was populated with yellow square values, and the only way to prevent that is try to get better data below (higher rpm) the troubled area or manually smooth the bulge area.  It may be that with DE on, that area doesn't collect any data so the data that is used during the vtune is from the base cal.

[whittlebeast]

I'd like to see the vtune runs that made the ve's in those "bulge" areas.  It's entirely possible that those "bulge" areas was populated with yellow square values, and the only way to prevent that is try to get better data below (higher rpm) the troubled area or manually smooth the bulge area.  It may be that with DE on, that area doesn't collect any data so the data that is used during the vtune is from the base cal.

That is exactly the reason that I do full time data logging and later look at the data to find the lean holes that always seem to be there.  It is sometimes difficult to get your head around exactly what is the combination that gets you that lean spot but none the less, it is there and you have the tool to tune around the issue.  I find that once you have holes filled, the bikes (and cars for that matter) are far smoother and responsive.  Now that I am running wide bands most of the time, I am finding throttle response is very sensitive to what AFR the bike was running right before the AE event happens is a huge factor.   Coming from too rich is really problematic on throttle response.

I tend to tune steady state on a wide band and then I tune the AE/DE with a narrow band and based on watching the RPM change per sec compared the TPS/MAP.  This is a little sketchy on the Harleys are the data rate is so slow.

AE tends to be a balance act with raw throttle response in first and smoothness in shifting.  With the Sporty, I can get the front tire to lift off the ground on a 3000 RPM throttle stab when the AE is getting close.  The FZ1 tends to fly swat you when you get it right.

I personally never tune with AE/DE turned off.  AFR spikes will always show up throwing off whatever method you are using to determine the correct VE.

Beast