103

[76shuvlinoff]

I will know in the next month or so if I will have the cash for this.

IF I do (get it? Big if. sorry  ) How do I get from a 93"er to 103" in the most wallet friendly but durable manner?  Except for the current cam, hyd lifters and blocks the mill is all S&S.  4.5 stroke, 3.625 +.010 bore. 25,000 miles.

I must be an idiot   

-Mark

[gryphon]

If you punch the cylinders to 3 13/16" (3.8125) you will get 103" (actually 102.7) while maintaining your 4.5" stroke. Actually, you would probably have to replace the cylinders with axtells or similar.

[shovelbill]

new flywheels.....T&O, S&S etc. may need to lap rod races and new crank pin/bearings. you'll know if you can reuse the pinion and sprocket shaft after you pull it down. basic crank rebuild and balance. intake manifold........probably a bigger carb unless you have a G or an equivelant size now.

...pistons, stroker plates or jugs as most 5"arm 103's are .300" taller than stock. do the breather window.....gaskets.......can do custom pistons in your barrels too, but costly. a "typical" long stroke 103 won't fit in a stock swingarm frame. longer pushrods and tubes.

you can also get to 103 with a 4 1/2" crank with 3 13/16" barrels. you didn't mention the stroke you wanted.

if you do the bigger bore 4 1/2"....you need to bore the cases, get pistons and cylinders, gaskets......rebalance......bore the heads.....bigger carb.........but, super thin center case bolt and possible cracked oil galley behind rear lifter block. lots of people say it fine and lots of people say it's too big of a hole for stock deck height cases

imo the big bore will last longer if built right........the long arm will have more torque down low.

i'd do a 98"......it'll fit in a stock frame and will last longer. either way you may want to go through the heads too.

[76shuvlinoff]

I definitely would not want to mod the frame and would like to keep my 4.5 stroke or a least I'm uneasy about piston speed in a 5".

The use:
Fat assed FLH, two up windshield and bags, not a bar blaster. Been running this 93"er since 04, I have played with cams and carbs but still looking for a substantial change. The bike is good but you all know after a while good isn't good enough.

Now after I price mods out "good" might be just fine.

[turboprop]

You might be able to resleeve your existing cylinders to 3 13/16". The heads will need to be machined for the larger fire ring.

this might be a little outside the box, but you could get 'more' by welding up the chambers and running a flat top piston. Would cost less (guess) and would really improve the efficiency of the chamber. Maybe get some good port work done, then that 93" shovel would be a totally different animal. Just a thought. 

[HotRodShovel]

And I thought I had it bad.......   go for it Mark...

[shovelbill]

tell us about the motor as she's built now......CR, cam, heads, blablabla....gearing. what is it that you want that this isn't doing for you?

[Powerglides]

If you use 5" stroke to get to 103, then you'll need to modify the frame to get it in. You will also be buying longer cylinders as well as flywheels (or a complete crank), pistons, intake manifold and pushrods.
If you use 4 3/4" stroke to get to 98", you'll still need the additional parts, but the motor will fit in the frame. However, it is so tight that you won't get the heads off in situ.
The 98" and 103" flywheels are smaller diameter in order to maintain a sensible piston skirt length. You would have to build up the scraper plate in order to stop oil being thrown up the rear cylinder.
Going the Axtell 3 13/16" route makes the most sense. Sounds like you're on S&S cases already. The tappet oil feed on these cases doesn't run behind the lifter blocks like the OEM cases, so the stress raiser isn't an issue, plus the cases are stronger anyway.
Check with Axtell what their piston weights are. Their pistons are quite light considering the size, and the S&S pistons from that era (cast, or TRW forgings with teflon buttons) are relatively heavy. They may be very close to what you already have.
Other than whether you choose to use the opportunity to check the crank and case bearings (I would), and the possibility of rebalancing, then case boring and opening up the head counterbores, is the only major machining required. You might also consider external oil drains from the heads. If it were mine I'd look at twin plugging it. The S&S heads have more meat in this area so you can use a regular 3/4" reach plug on this side as well.
For the use that you've described, I'd be inclined to keep the carb small, CV, HSR42, Super E.

[76shuvlinoff]

tell us about the motor as she's built now......CR, cam, heads, blablabla....gearing. what is it that you want that this isn't doing for you?

In the end this is all going to be about funds and how I'm affected $$$ by a daughter soon moving from a junior college into a university.
What it's doing for me now... honestly is boredom.  Had me wondering how big I can go, stay in my frame, not break the bank still putt the back roads with the wife . This chilly morning I'm reading all this and thinking .....just because I can doesn't mean I should.

Heavy FLH


All S&S 93" mill (late shovel) with .010 over cyls, S&S slugs.
Dual plugged S&S heads, long plugs.
CR unknown, sold to me new in 04 as 9.3:1
The mill came with S&S 560 cam, I installed Andrews B then 560 again, now Leinweber L3S. (told ya I get bored)
Jims top end oiling (with hyd lifters of course) and roller tip rockers.
I think it was last winter I put a compression tester to her and got 200+ per cyl and yes I am wondering about my tester. I know I ain't kicking it.
Dyna 2000i ignition
CV40 sporty needle 50/200
5 speed in a 4 speed tranny.
Gearing.. 24/37/23 and 51, this works great for two up sight seeing but that rear has been 51 then 49 then 48 then 46 then 48 then 51.... yep  boredom does that.

back under the bridge, maybe I'll just knit some socks this winter.   

[turboprop]

You know, this sounds like a very good shovel motor. Have you had it on a dyno, curious to know what the numbers on a motor like this are.

[billbuilds]

    Mark, :Why not leave the bore and stroke as is? Remove your  S&S heads and sell them. Take the proceeds plus your bonus and purchase a set of those Sorensen heads that Nomad made mention of.  I believe that they used Sorensen Performance designed CP pistons and rings along with a G carb and an Andrews M grind cam and got 108/108 out of an "ordinary" 93" motor. Might be worth a phone call or perhaps just an email to see what you'll need to get the kick that you want.     Bill

[easyricer]

  Go with the Sorenson set up! That'll boost the old gal some!
EASY

[catmcaw]

  Mark
   I think Sorensen will port your S&S heads.  I understand he is easy to talk with and could put you a nice package together without breaking the bank.

[76shuvlinoff]

Sorenson heads hmmmm   where can I sell a kidney?

You know, this sounds like a very good shovel motor. Have you had it on a dyno, curious to know what the numbers on a motor like this are.

Dyno's scare the "Potty mouth" out of me, that's probably an unreasonable fear but I watched a few runs on portable units at a couple rallys and I can't see my shovel rolling away from that under it's own power.

[shovelbill]

it sounds like you have a pretty good recipe there 76....should be a stout motor. yea, i forgot about the external drains on the BB 103. i personally think a 96" is the best all around big shovel you can build......the only way to know the true CR is to CC the whole deal...that way you KNOW what you have and can bettter match all the parts to what you want. a balanced and blueprinted 96, geared and cammed correctly should be able to motivate most mini vans, let alone a sled.

it just needs to built as a locomotive motor, not a quarter mile drag bike. evo cams are the way to go imo. better choices, more under the curve. a little head work goes a long way....i'm not talking about welding intake ports like i did. Mike Sorenson did my heads by the way. probably the last set of hand done heads he'll do, at least for a long while.......a real good (Serdi) valvejob is the best bang for the buck imo. PIPES.......very important.......pipes can make or break any motor combo. especially if they dip at the time you need them to shine.

dynos are wonderful as a tool to see where things are at at for some tuning, but nobody rides a dyno. all these big numbers you see may be wonderful....and may be what some want for the way they ride, but i'd rather have 10 pounds of torque in the rpm range i ride than at 6K rpms......where i seldome go to.

good heads. high lift and a sensible duration seems to work well. i run a Mackie 581 in my 80" and love it.....nice lobe profile, don't beat the "Potty mouth" out of the valve train. call him and talk to him. i really like Dave Mackie. http://davemackie.com/cams.html



my friend Mikey just got his his own CNC up and running and at this time has no real inventory to sell........he will though. as of this moment he has his ported billet super G manifolds and is working on the lifter blocks......he says he'll be working on his heads soon. i love Mike and introduced hm to this forum like 3 years ago. around here:

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,3521.msg34597.html#msg34597

you could spend lots of money and build a mediocre 103 for power or build a balanced and blueprinted 93/96 and blow it away......just got to hit on the correct combo for the way YOU ride........lots of issues can be addressed with the PROPER cam, compression and gearing combos.

i've had these on my shelf for over 2 years now......Mikey did my heads and one day i'll own the billet ones too, for my 96"(sand blasted of course)

Jim T made these for me.....from Vision Grinding.



JE made these for Mikey....i split a set with someone





save the pennies and have Mike stear you in the right direction.

[76shuvlinoff]

gonna print this thread, do some research, figure the financing

thanks, you guys make me insane

 

[shovelbill]

gonna print this thread, do some research, figure the financing

thanks, you guys make me insane

 

one thing i will say.....if you do decide to go the short stroke 103 ......at that point it's a no brainer to do a 4 5/8 flywheel for 106......everything else is the same cost and i happen to know someone that would buy your 4 1/2" wheels. whilst you're in there 3" is 3", right?

http://www.axtellsales.com/106-C.I.-SHOVELHEAD-STROKER-KIT-200-602.html

hmm...Axtell don't list a 96" or a 103" kit anymore either.

here's another fine American making go fast parts for our sleds.......especially big bore jugs. contact Randy.

http://kingofcubes.com/?page_id=132

[turboprop]

hmm...Axtell don't list a 96" or a 103" kit anymore either.

Axtell most certainly does make a 96" and 103" kits for shovel heads. Their website is not up to date. You have to call them. They will make them custom to exactly how you want them. Not cookie cutter of the shelf. They are built to order, to whatever spec you want.

[gryphon]

How things have changed. When I first started riding HD's an 80 incher was considered to be big. Anything much larger than that was starting to get crazy and 90 inches was just insane. Now Mark is riding an "ordinary" 93 incher. When I built my first 88 incher I was concerned that it might be to radical for dependable street use so I stayed with compression in the low 7's. Funny. Being able to buy "off the shelf" performance has sure made things different. As has the increase in knowlege and technology I suppose.

[HotRodShovel]

I'm still a little cautious about my 96". I listen a whole lot closer than I did when it was 80"

[Hillside Motorcycle]

If you can perform machine work, you can buy Dura-bar lengths, from MSC, and manufacture your own cylinders.
Scott

[shovelbill]

good to know....and thanks turbo. in my present financial circumstance...calling these folks is like "here's the menu, kitchen's closed"

when you get into this level of engine building EVERYTHING needs to be built on paper first.......you can't be spending $1800 on a top end kit to save pennies by buying chiwaneese roller rockers or skimping on a "perfect" rotating assembly. it just don't make sense to me.

a virtually stock 74" motor......balanced, blueprinted with even a small cam and compression bump....lovingly massaged becomes a serious contender to half ass built motors 30 cubes larger.......the motor KNOWS what went into it building it. that i believe.

do these tractor motors NEED to be built this well......NO, they'll run practically no matter what.... can they be made to really shine?......hell yea they can. the effort you put in will show in spades how it runs. my favorite setup happens to be an 89"

[turboprop]

I totally agree with you Bill. No reason for these motors to be slammed together. Real power and longevity comes from things like  micrometers, hones and dial indicators.

The guys at Axtell are my buddies, I probably talk to Chaz and Terry almost every day. They are true gear heads. Terry is a fanatic about shovel and older stuff. Might be good to call them just to get an idea of what the cost and lead time on this stuff is. They may even give you a few ideas that you did not consider. Call Chaz and tell him he is a sexy MoFo. 

[76shuvlinoff]

If you can perform machine work, you can buy Dura-bar lengths, from MSC, and manufacture your own cylinders.
Scott

Scott I'm qualified to call MSC but after they pick up the phone I'd be over my head.

How things have changed. When I first started riding HD's an 80 incher was considered to be big....... Now Mark is riding an "ordinary" 93 incher. 

Somehow all I can come with is,  I must be suffering from penis envy. 

Obviously I have a lot more to think about than I first realized. There's a helluva knowledge base here, a few ways to skin this cat,  and some benefits to leaving it alone.

Thanks all.

[HotRodShovel]

Ain't this place something else? You will never find as much knowledge crammed into one place as there is here, myself excluded. 

[Powerglides]

when you get into this level of engine building EVERYTHING needs to be built on paper first.......you can't be spending $1800 on a top end kit to save pennies by buying chiwaneese roller rockers or skimping on a "perfect" rotating assembly. it just don't make sense to me.

a virtually stock 74" motor......balanced, blueprinted with even a small cam and compression bump....lovingly massaged becomes a serious contender to half ass built motors 30 cubes larger.......the motor KNOWS what went into it building it. that i believe.

do these tractor motors NEED to be built this well......NO, they'll run practically no matter what.... can they be made to really shine?......hell yea they can. the effort you put in will show in spades how it runs.

Very well said