S&S 89cc heads flow?

[Merc63]

Anyone have an idea of how much power the S&S 89cc Super Stock heads are good for out of the box? I am trying to hit around 135-140hp out of my 126 with 4.125bore x 4.75stroke...

Running a 45mm Mukini, Im at 122hp/137tq. I realize this carb is pretty small so I just got in a S&S G modified by dan davinci, venturi is bored to 49.5mm.. With the new carb Im hoping it will get some more air in the top end, but I am wonder if these heads will not flow enough out of the box?

Running a D&D boarzille exhaust. Don't know CR or cam unfortunately.

Thanks

[baker]

I don't have a lot of experience with S&S heads, but those heads will flow around 260/270 cfm at a .550 lift, more info on the heads will get you a more accurate answere, intake port size? valve size? cam info also?
That small carb is holding it back.
...Bake...

[Merc63]

2.000 inch intake and 1.605 inch exhaust valves

I am not sure what cam is in this engine

[Merc63]

None of the head porting guys have any feed back on these heads???

[NCTURBOS]

None of the head porting guys have any feed back on these heads???

Out of the box, I'm not too sure how well they work.  I know Hillside has had good results from porting them, and so has Kendall Johnson.  Maybe make a couple calls to some head porters about them. 

Also... I just looked at Tman's website and he offers both a Stage-3 & Stage-4 port on those heads.  I'm sure he would have some information of out-of-the-box #'s. http://tmanperformance.com/heads.htm


K.

[Don D]

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=7971.0
This one made 147/147 SAE with just a little buff and fluff

[1FSTRK]

I have seen the box stock crate 124 make 140-150 hp with an S&S man,S&S carb w/thunder jet, and good flowing stepped head pipes. If I remember correctly it made about 142 with the 48 Mik and wood large air filter. The heads should not hold you up.

[glens]

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=7971.0
This one made 147/147 SAE with just a little buff and fluff

Who was it that got all in my face the other day for suggesting it's better to attach images to the forum instead of providing links to off-site locations...?

[Hillside Motorcycle]

I have seen the box stock crate 124 make 140-150 hp with an S&S man,S&S carb w/thunder jet, and good flowing stepped head pipes. If I remember correctly it made about 142 with the 48 Mik and wood large air filter. The heads should not hold you up.

Don't feed folk's that bull"Potty mouth" about 150 hp from a crate 124"ers.
THEY DON'T.

[Jaycee1964]

  Who needs Oprah!

[Merc63]

I have seen the box stock crate 124 make 140-150 hp with an S&S man,S&S carb w/thunder jet, and good flowing stepped head pipes. If I remember correctly it made about 142 with the 48 Mik and wood large air filter. The heads should not hold you up.

Don't feed folk's that bull"Potty mouth" about 150 hp from a crate 124"er, because it is a LIE.
THEY DON'T.

So what are these heads good for out of the box? I have a 4.75inch stroke so I think this engine needs a lot of air at higher rpm.  I'll attach a dyno sheet when I get home, the torque blasts up quick and low but starts to almost instantly fall on its face.

[Barrett]

My Friends 124" S&S was hitting 145/150 but his was built, Leineweber cams and a lot of compression.. you can feel the rumble when riding beside it.

[Hillside Motorcycle]

My Friends 124" S&S was hitting 145/150 but his was built, Leineweber cams and a lot of compression.. you can feel the rumble when riding beside it.

Yep.

[1FSTRK]

So what are these heads good for out of the box? I have a 4.75inch stroke so I think this engine needs a lot of air at higher rpm.  I'll attach a dyno sheet when I get home, the torque blasts up quick and low but starts to almost instantly fall on its face.

You really need a bigger carb
Follow Deweys link in the post above and look at the specs. He did buff and fluff the heads as he put it but he made 10 more than your looking for. If you install the carb you may have to try a baffle change and some dyno tuning but you shuold be close to your goal. What ignition are you using? I've seen the bestresults with the DTT on carb bikes

[Merc63]

So what are these heads good for out of the box? I have a 4.75inch stroke so I think this engine needs a lot of air at higher rpm.  I'll attach a dyno sheet when I get home, the torque blasts up quick and low but starts to almost instantly fall on its face.

You really need a bigger carb
Follow Deweys link in the post above and look at the specs. He did buff and fluff the heads as he put it but he made 10 more than your looking for. If you install the carb you may have to try a baffle change and some dyno tuning but you shuold be close to your goal. What ignition are you using? I've seen the bestresults with the DTT on carb bikes

How can I change the baffle on the boarzille? I thought it was welded in there? Is this Modified G carb going to be big enough? The venturi is bored to 49.5mm and it has a signal booster added to it, no Tjet though, the guy that built it said it wouldnt need it....

I believe the ignition is a Dyna 2000. This engine was built about 8 years ago.

Id like to see around 140hp from this engine if possible without cracking it open.. Possible cam change in the future and maybe some head work... But I want to know if doing that is worthless if my new carb cant support that flow or something else is restricting it.. ?

Thanks guys.

[Merc63]

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=7971.0
This one made 147/147 SAE with just a little buff and fluff

I'd love to be putting out those numbers or at least very close to that. Could you PM me the cost of doing my heads up like that???

[HogBag]

I have seen the box stock crate 124 make 140-150 hp with an S&S man,S&S carb w/thunder jet, and good flowing stepped head pipes. If I remember correctly it made about 142 with the 48 Mik and wood large air filter. The heads should not hold you up.

Don't feed folk's that bull"Potty mouth" about 150 hp from a crate 124"ers.
THEY DON'T.

Scott do the 126 G2 engines pull 150/150 out of the box or do they need head work to get there.

[1FSTRK]

I have seen the box stock crate 124 make 140-150 hp with an S&S man,S&S carb w/thunder jet, and good flowing stepped head pipes. If I remember correctly it made about 142 with the 48 Mik and wood large air filter. The heads should not hold you up.

Don't feed folk's that bull"Potty mouth" about 150 hp from a crate 124"ers.
THEY DON'T.

I would like to correct my original post to say that it was not "box stock" but I stand by the fact the heads were.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Merc63]

Is there a difference between the evo style heads and TC?

[1FSTRK]

Is there a difference between the evo style heads and TC?

I honestly don't know. I do know that this was a motor from Dragspecialties and maybe S&S can tell you what heads are installed on what motors.
Sorry for any confusion that my post may have caused you.

[jsachs1]

Is there a difference between the evo style heads and TC?

The ports are basically the same. Cam geometry differs.
John

[1FSTRK]

Is it better on the TW or on the Evo?

[jsachs1]

Evo tends to be more friendly with tdc lifts on high lift cams.   
John

[biggzed]

How can you be chasing numbers and swapping parts when you don't even know what CR and cam is in it? How do you know the thing was ever put together right?

Zach

[Merc63]

How can you be chasing numbers and swapping parts when you don't even know what CR and cam is in it? How do you know the thing was ever put together right?

Zach

I assume it was built right, but you are right we don't know the internals as this engine was built over 7-8years ago and the guy who did it no longer works at the harley shop where it was assembled.

I can tell by the dyno sheet that its having a hard time breathing in the higher RPM. Torque shoots up fast but quickly starts to fall on its face.  Just by changing the exhaust to a boarzilla gave us over 10+ hp and flattened out the torque curve. Obviously the 45mm Mukuini is too small for this size engine.. Once the new carb is on and we see the result from that, we can either dig into it more (cam, heads) or leave it alone.


I see no other way to reach my goals other then experimenting? Do you have any ideas?

[biggzed]

How can you be chasing numbers and swapping parts when you don't even know what CR and cam is in it? How do you know the thing was ever put together right?

Zach

I assume it was built right, but you are right we don't know the internals as this engine was built over 7-8years ago and the guy who did it no longer works at the harley shop where it was assembled.

I can tell by the dyno sheet that its having a hard time breathing in the higher RPM. Torque shoots up fast but quickly starts to fall on its face.  Just by changing the exhaust to a boarzilla gave us over 10+ hp and flattened out the torque curve. Obviously the 45mm Mukuini is too small for this size engine.. Once the new carb is on and we see the result from that, we can either dig into it more (cam, heads) or leave it alone.


I see no other way to reach my goals other then experimenting? Do you have any ideas?

I think taking the cams out and looking for a part number would be a good start before too much experimenting happens. Use a bore scope to determine the general style of piston it has (flat top/domed/dished). I wouldn't assume to much. If someone put together an engine this size and felt a Mik45 was the right carb, maybe they also thought a .510 cam was the right cam. Stupid example, but just trying to illustrate you should dig into it and find out what the total build is before throwing money/parts at it to achieve a goal.

Zach
What I meant by my previous comment about it being put together right was more along the lines of if the cams/heads/compression were a good match.

[bladerunner]

  7 or 8 years old ? how many miles  ?    If  it was mine and it ain`t..        ..I would take it down see what the internals are  ,cc the heads etc ,hone  ,re-  ring  ?  Zach is right,   think your chase`n your tail  ,  untill you know what your working with...bladerunner

[Merc63]

I have the carb already, so we will see where that takes us. It just might do the trick, if not, looking into the cams and heads is next.

[1FSTRK]

After you get it running with the new carb, while it's warm do a cranking compression test.
This will tell about the condition of things and if you get the cam number you'll have an idea of what range of cams you can shop with out static compression changes

[Don D]

Your question what do they flow:
This is with a 1.610 ex and 2.08 intake and very minor port work.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[1FSTRK]

Your question what do they flow:
This is with a 1.610 ex and 2.08 intake and very minor port work.

Is this a reprinted document or Did you confirm these numbers on your flowbench?

[Don D]

My flow bench

[1FSTRK]

  Nice

[Don D]

This EVO 124 went 147/147 SAE at 11.2/1 Mik 48 stock motor otherwise.

[aharp]

Those S&S TC heads seem to like that stock .605 exhaust. That may be just me though.

[Merc63]

This EVO 124 went 147/147 SAE at 11.2/1 Mik 48 stock motor otherwise.

Awesome numbers, thanks for the document.

[Merc63]

After you get it running with the new carb, while it's warm do a cranking compression test.
This will tell about the condition of things and if you get the cam number you'll have an idea of what range of cams you can shop with out static compression changes

I am not sure if this was done warm or not, but I had asked my indy and he said it was in the 150psi range. Does this seem too low?  Bike runs good, 122hp,137tq... Doesn't smoke or anything. BTW, this was done with the Mik 45 on it.. Haven't got the G on yet because the manifold that S&S sent doesn't fit the 4.75" stroke. I have to send them my old manifold to get a custom one made up.

[Don D]

And the releases? Disconnected or not? Throttle open??

[Merc63]

And the releases? Disconnected or not? Throttle open??

He said the releases were disconnected. However, I am not sure if they opened the throttle or not, I will ask!

[1FSTRK]

After you get it running with the new carb, while it's warm do a cranking compression test.
This will tell about the condition of things and if you get the cam number you'll have an idea of what range of cams you can shop with out static compression changes

I am not sure if this was done warm or not, but I had asked my indy and he said it was in the 150psi range. Does this seem too low?  Bike runs good, 122hp,137tq... Doesn't smoke or anything. BTW, this was done with the Mik 45 on it.. Haven't got the G on yet because the manifold that S&S sent doesn't fit the 4.75" stroke. I have to send them my old manifold to get a custom one made up.

Your not going to see your goal hp with that cam/compression combo so my next move would be to identify the cam you have.

[NCTURBOS]

After you get it running with the new carb, while it's warm do a cranking compression test.
This will tell about the condition of things and if you get the cam number you'll have an idea of what range of cams you can shop with out static compression changes

I am not sure if this was done warm or not, but I had asked my indy and he said it was in the 150psi range. Does this seem too low?  Bike runs good, 122hp,137tq... Doesn't smoke or anything. BTW, this was done with the Mik 45 on it.. Haven't got the G on yet because the manifold that S&S sent doesn't fit the 4.75" stroke. I have to send them my old manifold to get a custom one made up.

Your not going to see your goal hp with that cam/compression combo so my next move would be to identify the cam you have.

If the CCP was checked correctly, 

K.

[Hillside Motorcycle]

Those S&S TC heads seem to like that stock .605 exhaust. That may be just me though.

As long as the "camel hump" exhaust floor is semi-maintained.
If going to a larger exhaust, then that is when that is changed, here.
Scott

[biggzed]

While you're waiting for the custom manifold to be built, why not pull the cams? Doesn't take long and it's a big missing component to realizing what needs to be done to achieve your goals.

Zach

[Hillside Motorcycle]

After you get it running with the new carb, while it's warm do a cranking compression test.
This will tell about the condition of things and if you get the cam number you'll have an idea of what range of cams you can shop with out static compression changes

I am not sure if this was done warm or not, but I had asked my indy and he said it was in the 150psi range. Does this seem too low?  Bike runs good, 122hp,137tq... Doesn't smoke or anything. BTW, this was done with the Mik 45 on it.. Haven't got the G on yet because the manifold that S&S sent doesn't fit the 4.75" stroke. I have to send them my old manifold to get a custom one made up.

Me thinks the 124"er has a 4 1/8" hole x 4 5/8" arm.
If your running a 4 3/4" flywheel assembly that would be a 127" powerplant.
Scott

[happyman]

I have seen the box stock crate 124 make 140-150 hp with an S&S man,S&S carb w/thunder jet, and good flowing stepped head pipes. If I remember correctly it made about 142 with the 48 Mik and wood large air filter. The heads should not hold you up.

Don't feed folk's that bull"Potty mouth" about 150 hp from a crate 124"ers.
THEY DON'T.

thank you

[1FSTRK]

This was already addressed on page one. Try to stay up to speed

[Don D]

1.605 VS 1.610, they are nearly identical.

[Merc63]

While you're waiting for the custom manifold to be built, why not pull the cams? Doesn't take long and it's a big missing component to realizing what needs to be done to achieve your goals.

Zach

Good idea, but I think Im just going to wait till the carb is on, see what happens then take it from there.. Who knows maybe that will bump the power up a bit and Ill be happy with that.

[biggzed]

While you're waiting for the custom manifold to be built, why not pull the cams? Doesn't take long and it's a big missing component to realizing what needs to be done to achieve your goals.

Zach

Good idea, but I think Im just going to wait till the carb is on, see what happens then take it from there.. Who knows maybe that will bump the power up a bit and Ill be happy with that.

Well, you've been led to water. Good luck. I hope that carb is the golden key for you.

Zach

[Merc63]

Yep, it's a learning curve. I'll report back once the carb is on!

[pwmorris]

I have seen the box stock crate 124 make 140-150 hp with an S&S man,S&S carb w/thunder jet, and good flowing stepped head pipes. If I remember correctly it made about 142 with the 48 Mik and wood large air filter. The heads should not hold you up.

Don't feed folk's that bull"Potty mouth" about 150 hp from a crate 124"ers.
THEY DON'T.

Thats for sure Scott-150 HP crate 124"'s my azz...
Out of the box w/ a G, depending on the pipe, intake, tune and dyno-125-132 HP.
I initally ran a superstock head set up from a crate 124" with a rocker swap (1.7's), .2 bump in compression, D carb and velocity stack, and Sam Wills Racing Innovations dual stepped pipes and here was the result in 2002-It made 142 HP at a tuning session, and at a shootout a couple weeks later here was the result (putting a couple big name builders on the trailer as well)...

2002 LA Calendar Bike Show's White Brothers West Coast Dyno Horsepower Shootout Winners:
V-Twin 88 ci & Over-

Paul Morris, 1990 Harley FXR, 137.5 HP

[1FSTRK]

I have no idea of the abilities of your mechanic or tuner and frankly that has nothing to do with it.
No one selling anything in my posts and just stated what I saw, some folks got offended, I backed it up with as much info as I could and you can take it or leave it. It's an open forum.

[pwmorris]

No doubt top head guys who massage the superstocks and bump compression along with it and other mods have taken a crate 124" and bring it well into the upper 140's square and perhaps beyond but thats a million miles from a "crate" motor.
The S&S site itself advertises less than 130 HP from their 124" crate motors and back when Rob Schof from Hal's won the Hotbike S&S ultimate challenge (several top builders using crate 124"'s with the S&S tuned induction dual runners-no internal mods allowed) he managed just over 140 HP, with Kendall, Wink and others in the 130's HP. This was with the best in the world trying to squeeze power from these crate motors.
The big, big power just isn't there from these superstocks out of the box. Period.

[Hillside Motorcycle]

With the right work, those buggers will flow some mighty good numbers, on both sides of the head.
Combined with the right amount of squeeze on the .640, intake system, and exhaust, they can really rip.
Scott