120R TTS Map?

[glens]

We understand a VE number is just that.  A number.  The programmers have to put a ceiling on it, just has they do with the bottom number.  My question is:  Does adding 5% really "potty mouth! " "Potty mouth" up?

Could you elaborate on "adding 5%"?

The ceiling the programmers have put on the VE number is simply because each cell value is held within one byte of memory.  A byte is an eight-place binary number (anywhere from 00000000 to 11111111) which translates into the range of "0" to "255" (2^8 - 1) in base-ten like we're accustomed to using.  Since the VE numbers are incremented by 0.5 (two increments per whole number) that leaves "128" (256÷2) possible discrete values.  Try tuning that with a carb!  Hahaha!

[hrdtail78]

Adding 5% to cubic inch.  Might as well say 20%.   Throw in force induction....?? 

Sorry for the "potty mouth" to my fellow HTT's and the mods.

I will add this. I have had some success fixing high VE's in WOT with PE mode. But my understanding is this is not what this table is for.

[BVHOG]

Both bikes are 120R out of the box, 58 mm DBW, 5.3 injectors, heavy breather and 2:1 exhaust. One a borzilla and the other RB Racing, so they are about as close as your going to get. Both make within 2 &2 on the dyno of each other but you swap the cal's between them and they both turn into turd's. One's at 132 T and 131 Hp the other is 130 T and 133 Hp on our dyno. Both run side by side when riding and turn in within 1 MPG to each other, different days different one wins the MPG. Tunes vary as much as 20% on the VE's and 5 degrees in the timing! Somethings going on that I need to find and understand before I let something out. My "Potty mouth" always gets done last so I'm use to it.

I'm with lonewolf on this one, swap the pipes and the cals and then see what you have, no way in hell are those two pipes going to tune even close to each other and you know that as well as anyone. When I swapped out the Bassani for a Rb on my own bike the Bassani map wasn't even usable, no surprise there either.

[BVHOG]

This whole discussion proves to me what all of us already know.  Give the build what it wants.  I think staying in the confines of cu. in. is great, and a lot less work for me.  In reality.....  Spent some time with a 12 cvo with 54's, heavy breather, fulsac x pipe, .030 hg, 4in. RH's today.  MT8 hit the ceiling on rear in the 100kpa.  Maybe my problem was I started with Fulsac's cal.  Used that same cal. on almost the same build but the 555.  It was fine.  Did I cc the heads on either build?  No.  I have nothing bad to say about the fulsac head pipe, but...  You guys have seen them.  That's a funky bend before it goes behind the trans.  4500-5000 steady state tuning will put some heat into them at the xpipe.

"Also...  NOTHING is close for the 120.  You will REALLY have to work at cold idle and hot idle.  Playing with the crank to run and crank steps, etc.  It takes time.  Also, fairly soon into v-tuning you will REALLY need to lower the warm idle RPM to 700 and v-tune the 750-1250 areas while sitting in your garage.  Do that until all white and raise the idle back up to 1000."

That's called tuning.  Would love to spend 3 hours vtuning, setting WOT, checking spark knock and kicking them out.  Get off the beat'n path of a stage 1.  You will start leaving it for the night and hitting up warm up lambda in the morn.  Then spending more time tuning.

My point is this.  We understand a VE number is just that.  A number.  The programmers have to put a ceiling on it, just has they do with the bottom number.  My question is:  Does adding 5% really "potty mouth! " "Potty mouth" up?

Give the build what it wants, that's what it has always been about. I have had to do things at idle with a 120r that I have never seen with any other build.

[wurk_truk]

........


"Also...  NOTHING is close for the 120.  You will REALLY have to work at cold idle and hot idle.  Playing with the crank to run and crank steps, etc.  It takes time.  Also, fairly soon into v-tuning you will REALLY need to lower the warm idle RPM to 700 and v-tune the 750-1250 areas while sitting in your garage.  Do that until all white and raise the idle back up to 1000."

That's called tuning.  Yes it IS tuning and you need to remember that I was 'talking' to the OP here.  I, myself, expect to ALWAYS check all of this out, but some don't bother.  With the 120r... one NEEDS to bother to get a nice idle..

[robertg]

I did a couple more garage V-tunes and everything went well. The only problem that I had is it wouldn't collect data in the 2500-3000 range, the waiting light would just come on. I changed the displacement to 120 from 124 and that seemed to help. It runs really good at 3000 now with no load and it purrs like a kitten at 720 rpm. It might be a couple of months before I can ride it on the road again, depends on the weather. At least I can see what the v-tuning does now.

[wurk_truk]

Robert... since it is too cold for both of us...  I am going to get around to installing the new lifters and tune a bit.

I wish to tune my idle qualities... warm AND cold.  While I await a little better weather for v-tuning. 

I was really happy to see BVBob state HE has seen idle issues, on 120s, too.  Makes me know that I am on the right track having to play with this somewhat.

Yes... it IS reversion that made me raise my CI up a bit.  And, I am sure that once I get to that part it will all smooth out quite a bit.  But for now, I was concentrating on idle and getting the map in shape somewhat before the 'finer' tuning comes into play.  Steve, I am sure that if I smoothed the EGR right at the beginning, maybe I wouldn't have needed to add like 4%, but...  I do things the retarded way I guess, and go with how I know the tune will finally end up being pretty nice.  Besides the 4%, I took my map and added like 10 more % to the VEs.  Then I let V-Tune DROP them into place instead of worrying about lifting them in place.  I know you may bitch, but it is how I figured I wanted to do it.

Plus...  I STILL think closed loop is a good goal to shoot for, but again, I am being 'different' about it.  My CL area is top center of the map.  I do NOT want 3000 and up in closed loop as 2800-3000 is MY cruising range and I wish for a tad bit more fuel in those areas... low 14s, I figure...from past experiences, I guess.  I like to do 75-80 mph and set the cruise for that speed.  I have noticeed that when I do this, the bike WILL get kinda hot after like 50 miles or so if I have that area set at 14.4-5.  If I run 14-14.2ish, the bike will NOT go into ETIMS when I get back into city traffic like 14.4 will.  I do NOT know why this is, but it is for sure doing this.  Its a right on the edge thing for my own bike I guess...  pulling too much fat around?  How in the Fudge can a couple TENTHS of a point make the ETIMS fire or not is beyond me.

After all the v-tuning I can get, I will sample with TS kit and check it all out to look for what 'matches' and what doesn't.. fill out my 80-100...  and THEN make the decision on where the break points will be between the v-tune and the TS+.  My thoughts right now are to use v-tune for like up to 70 kpa... make sure 80 kpa is all open loop and still has v-tune data, then use the data from the TS+... smoothed out... for the 90 and 100 kpa areas.  Then as the RPM climbs.. go backwards like to 60 and then even 50 for my data break points.  Then..  I will also wish to use the higher rpms almost pure TS+ kit, but all the break points on keeping the data copacetic makes my head hurt.

I totally 'get' the idea of making the ECM happy.  I was driving home, like 150 miles, tonight and thot about the van I was driving.  250k on the clock and still runs good.  Every time the battery goes dead from lack of use, the van runs like crap until all the AFVs get re - installed from driving.  My question is why do the AFVs REALLY help my van dial in, but we wish to make AFVs do minimal damage to the bikes?  My thought was...  Happy ECM.

I already feel that I should pull the pipe and weld some half nuts as bungs before I go much further.  Install the EGT bungs and 12mm bungs while I am at it.  What I really should do is stop my efforts trying for an AFR tune, weld the bungs in and go with my 2010 ECM and do Lambda tuning instead.  Then... while doing all of this road tuning, I could data log off of some LC1s I have and finally actually see what the BB sensors say at the same time the NBs are in and working.  THAT will be the goal at some point.....  the Data loggers I have right now simply can NOT import the various traces into one 'readable' data run.  I wonder if MLV will do this?   Anyways...I am IMpatiently waiting for you, Steve, to come up with some analog inputs for me to use...  use them I will!!  HAHA!

[1FSTRK]

Both bikes are 120R out of the box, 58 mm DBW, 5.3 injectors, heavy breather and 2:1 exhaust. One a borzilla and the other RB Racing, so they are about as close as your going to get. Both make within 2 &2 on the dyno of each other but you swap the cal's between them and they both turn into turd's. One's at 132 T and 131 Hp the other is 130 T and 133 Hp on our dyno. Both run side by side when riding and turn in within 1 MPG to each other, different days different one wins the MPG. Tunes vary as much as 20% on the VE's and 5 degrees in the timing! Somethings going on that I need to find and understand before I let something out. My "Potty mouth" always gets done last so I'm use to it.

Steve
I've been thinking about this post for the last 2 weeks and it has really kept me guessing. Hope you have made some progress on the 120r maps (I won't need one for at least a month)  but I also hope you will post the information on what you find when you figure out these two bikes and their maps. Alot to be learned here by all. Thanks for sharing so much here with us.

[bulldog]

Like to ask few questions:

Need a TTS map for 120r build for just startup;

Build:
R&R cast heads
662-2 cams
Fatcat 2-1 pipe
6.2 injectors
55mm HP TB

Need it only for startup,just to make sure it has good oil pressure and everything sounds correct.Then straight to the tuner!!
Or should I just build the motor then take it to the tuner and just cross my fingers that everything goes alright?

will

[Rdub]

Both bikes are 120R out of the box, 58 mm DBW, 5.3 injectors, heavy breather and 2:1 exhaust. One a borzilla and the other RB Racing, so they are about as close as your going to get. Both make within 2 &2 on the dyno of each other but you swap the cal's between them and they both turn into turd's. One's at 132 T and 131 Hp the other is 130 T and 133 Hp on our dyno. Both run side by side when riding and turn in within 1 MPG to each other, different days different one wins the MPG. Tunes vary as much as 20% on the VE's and 5 degrees in the timing! Somethings going on that I need to find and understand before I let something out. My "Potty mouth" always gets done last so I'm use to it.

Steve,

Any chance you would post the cal from the bike with the Boarzilla or email it to me?

[Rdub]

I guess i should have read all the previous posts before i asked for the cal...sorry. do you anything more figured out?

[Rider57]

Both bikes are 120R out of the box, 58 mm DBW, 5.3 injectors, heavy breather and 2:1 exhaust. One a borzilla and the other RB Racing, so they are about as close as your going to get. Both make within 2 &2 on the dyno of each other but you swap the cal's between them and they both turn into turd's. One's at 132 T and 131 Hp the other is 130 T and 133 Hp on our dyno. Both run side by side when riding and turn in within 1 MPG to each other, different days different one wins the MPG. Tunes vary as much as 20% on the VE's and 5 degrees in the timing! Somethings going on that I need to find and understand before I let something out. My "Potty mouth" always gets done last so I'm use to it.

Ditto on the 20% crap.Redid the valves and seats. Checked coil bind. Ahhhhh....

[Rdub]

So... are you saying the out of the box engines have the springs going into coil bind?