HD Seeking Financial Help???

[charley992002]

Sorry if this has been posted but I find it hard to believe.  Latest issue of DealerNews has this story.....

http://www.dealernews.com/dealernews/Breaking+News/Harley-Davidson-Seeking-Federal-Bank-Bailout-Funds/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/576130?contextCategoryId=2704

[Sonny S.]

There is a lot I could say about that but it wouldn't be nice      ..... I think I'll watch

[lonegoosehonking]

 Kind of reminds me of some of the real estate people I have been dealing with. I am trying to buy a house  north of Dallas. Well these real estate people are still thinking they have the goose that laid the golden egg. Any inquiry I make is handled at a snails pace. One builder is 2 weeks in giving me a price to build a house. Re. HD. I have no sympathy whatsoever. If they go down the crapper its all of their own design. I will still ride the bike but I am disgusted STILL in the way they allowed the proliferation of thieves that were disquised as Harley Davidson Dealers. I am all about supply and demand but when the Parent Company condones screwing their customers I have a hard time using tax dollars to bail them out. Something else while I am on a rant...their new water Buffalo better be great because if not their is going to be a flushing vortex sucking sound as HD goes down the crapper.

[Phu Cat]

Practically every other company out there is applying, why shouldn't HD?  Seems like I heard on the news Larry Flint has applied.

PC

[82fxrstroker]

There is a lot I could say about that but it wouldn't be nice      ..... I think I'll watch

I'm with sonny on this one.

[HIPPO]

Practically every other company out there is applying, why shouldn't HD?  Seems like I heard on the news Larry Flint has applied.

PC

And none of them should have gotten a dime.

If a horse breaks a leg it gets shot and we get a new horse.

[96FLSTF]

Larry Flint applied for some bail-out, why not HD?

[Fxstchewy]

Shame on HD. 

[truck]

Seems strange that they should ask for help when they aren't doing anything to help theirselves like offering bikes below MSRP or giving cash back.

[charley992002]

When I said I was surprised I guess I am naive.  This country is in sad shape and when our large manufacturing industries need a bailout, something is stinking somewhere.  I do agree with the previous comments about how raping and pillaging have been running amonk for a long time.  Now either the tough get going or the giant sucking sound will commence soon, very soon.  Interesting article and it did catch me off guard.

Now Larry Flint, that's funny, during the VietNam war his magazine Hustler was outlawed on the Navy base in Yokosuka Japan where I was stationed and hence the base commnader became the A$$HOLE of the Month Award.  Remember that column?

Peace out.

[RVN73]

Lets just let all American companies go down the crapper. We could all get jobs flipping burgers at McDonalds. Oh, no one could afford them so those jobs would be gone to

[HIPPO]

That argument is a straw man.

Looked at from the point of view of ALL Americans, it is obvious that the assistance required exceeds the revenue that can be derived from the product that can be sold under current conditions.
Producing subsidized items that can not be sold transfers some wealth to a small segment of the people at the cost of burdening ALL of present and future generations with debt.

They can start by cutting management bonuses and dividend payments, and if that doesn't help then they should keep cutting.

[82fxrstroker]

That argument is a straw man.

Looked at from the point of view of ALL Americans, it is obvious that the assistance required exceeds the revenue that can be derived from the product that can be sold under current conditions.
Producing subsidized items that can not be sold transfers some wealth to a small segment of the people at the cost of burdening ALL of present and future generations with debt.

They can start by cutting management bonuses and dividend payments, and if that doesn't help then they should keep cutting.

Posted on: Today at 12:57:49 PMPosted by: RVN73 

Hippo,
   Your making way to much sense.

[Jeffd]

Oh,but today is the day all our troubles will be over as "The great and all mighty Obama" is at the helm.

[Fxstchewy]

Oh,but today is the day all our troubles will be over as "The great and all mighty Obama" is at the helm.

Yea, hasn't he flipped the magic switch yet?   

[northbrun]

The way i read it is, they are applying for a grant "in the event HDFS cannot pay there bills. it sounds like they have to be preaproved in case they need it.. also, HDFS (the lending portion of HD) is in the same trouble as all the banks. defaulted loans. which as i see it means there are going to be a whole lot of used harleys on the auction block soon!

[Skullfork]

Practically every other company out there is applying, why shouldn't HD?  Seems like I heard on the news Larry Flint has applied.

PC

I seen that the other night on the news.  Flint and the porn industry are asking for 5 Billion ...Seems everyone is trying to get their hands in the pot ...

[takwolf]

Yes, I've heard that Obama is going to bring back all our jobs from overseas and we'll all be drinking free bubble-up and eating rainbow stew.

[blk-betty]

Oh,but today is the day all our troubles will be over as "The great and all mighty Obama" is at the helm.

Yea, hasn't he flipped the magic switch yet?  

Dow dropped 332 points today...... uh oh 

[coolingfin]

If this economy doesn't turn around the only choices we'll have left will be Honda Furys and People Magazine.   

[highlander]

I declare BS. Nobody bailed my company out after 911 when everything dried up. I couldn't make payroll or pay other bills. Someone said something about a dead horse. Bad management should not be rewarded. This is all like a one legged cat trying to cover up "Potty mouth". It just aint gonna happen.

[One4Tone]

..I say if harley needs help..they should get it..Regan helped and turned the company around..do they need to make things affordable ..yes..and quit dictating to dealers that can't afford exposure and expensive butiqs...as for the porn industry they are wining cause the can't afford condoms...Well time to turn them inside out and shake the @#$% out of them...

[HDRDR]

Watch this! it will make you wonder what really is going on. We are in trouble if this bail out garbage doe's not stop!

This is a real problem we have going on in this country, and it's close to being a BIG issue imo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9h2x7R8pxUs

[Dennis The Menace]

....tick, tick, tick......

[Skullfork]

Watch this! it will make you wonder what really is going on. We are in trouble if this bail out garbage doe's not stop!

This is a real problem we have going on in this country, and it's close to being a BIG issue imo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9h2x7R8pxUs

Notice how that video, along with other anti-American videos, is funded and posted by the Russian government ...

[deathwish]

For those who think  the company can just go away , shame on you. Every company it the US has company GREED. Many companies that are going overseas have a very good profit line but they don't care , THEY WANT MORE. Shame on them! You pay the inflated price for a new HD, that is your problem. But at least the jobs are here. Just wait a couple more months and see how we are all affected. The article is basically about being able to finance bikes for people or cover what people are defaulting on. GMAC just went through this. Chrysler Financial also. If you can't finance, you can't sell! As soon as the banks see your sales line start to drop they pull your credit line. HD can't finance, they can't sell. In this case sales are off 20% and expected to drop 30% more. I'll bet on 45%. I see Kawasaki has decided it can't afford World Superbike Racing this year. But Hey guess what, Japan has already subsidided everyone. They did, Britan did, most of Europe has plus China but we only gave out half the approved funds and did a S--- job of that. Today it was announced in our small town of 5000 that the largest employer that just laid off 80 is now about to lay off to 1995 employment levels. That could be 300. Another company that has 45 is closing as of March. Everywhere people are getting the ax. Where will the jobs come from to re-employ these people? We need a Big Stimulas package but it needs to go to the people. Every tax payer. Give us all $50,000.00 if we pay taxes and we will bail everyone out. People could pay there morgages up to date. Pay the credit cards off, buy new cars or pay the hooker on the street corner if they want but the money would all be in quick circulation. Did anyone see the first $350 billion.Bla  Bla and Washington

[Tex_Bagger]

A found this on Motorcycle.com today.

http://www.motorcycle.com/news/harleydavidson-seeks-federal-bailout-87855.html

Interesting fact:
H-D’s stock price has dropped from $80-plus per share in December 2006 to $13.70 this week.
Personally I wish 'em luck as I know it's not a perfect Motor Company but still think it's the best motorcycle in the world.

[HDRDR]

Watch this! it will make you wonder what really is going on. We are in trouble if this bail out garbage doe's not stop!

This is a real problem we have going on in this country, and it's close to being a BIG issue imo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9h2x7R8pxUs

Notice how that video, along with other anti-American videos, is funded and posted by the Russian government ...

How would you know that? Its not anti America it was made to help America, and NOT follow the same path we have! Is that why Putin was at the big party yesterday? 

[Skullfork]

Without getting political, and I agree the topic they discuss in the video is certainly a serious matter, but, Russia Today is a news channel out of Russia that the government started in Dec. of 2005 and they call it the "Voice Of Russia."  They have a way of making things seem worse than they really are when it concerns the U.S.  They like to use media outlets such as YouTube to subtly make the U.S. look bad in the eye's of the international community while making it look like they are genuinely concerned. Why should you accept unquestioningly, information/propaganda disseminated by a foreign government, with whom our country has had a recent cooling in relationships?  Based on RT's track record in the past, I would just want to keep an open mind about their true intentions is basically what I was getting at ...   BTW- Putin showing up at the inauguration was nothing more than a political show.  He's a thug and Russia is slowly becoming our next big threat ...again. 


On subject, if H-D doesn't do a reality check and soon, no amount of money the gov might throw their way is going to make any difference. Two local dealers near where I live are hanging on by a thread right now, and still, they insist on charging above MSRP ...

[HIPPO]

Evil

Schiff is a OK guy and a fellow proponent of the Austrian Economics School, very smart and he saw the situation coming way early. His mistake is that he bet on the wrong horse because he thought economies would decouple. He lost his Euro Pacific fund clients a wagon load of money.

[HIPPO]

On the other issue, what people miss is that we do not have a liquidity issue, we have a solvency issue.

There are plenty of funds to be borrowed by credit worthy companies and individuals, the problem with sales is that the people that want the loans are not good credit risks, and the ones that are good risks don't want to borrow. The free HELOC money is not coming back. Everyone has massive overcapacity for what the market can absorb now.

Like it or not, there is no other way then to adjust capacity.

[Skullfork]

Hey HIPPO ...

I absolutely agree with you about Schiff and you're spot on about the credit market.  I'm just leary about the Russian government using him as propaganda against the U.S. after I saw that they were the ones posting the video.

[HIPPO]

Thing is that you can find multiple versions of Schiff interviews touching on the same subjects and with the same answers on Bloomberg, CNBC and other networks.

[HDRDR]

Thank you both for the input.... I just know damn well we are in trouble! and so do a lot of other folks. Check out gun and ammo sales, that's a start on how people think. I understand it's not just about BHO its about the world we live in, and whats going on within it! I listen and watch like lots of folks do and it's not a very good sign IMO.

Ride Safe!

[Skullfork]

 

[fxrp]

There is a lot I could say about that but it wouldn't be nice      ..... I think I'll watch

I'm with sonny on this one.

I shouldn't but I'll say something.

If you read the article the problem is with Eaglemark Bank and HD Credit. If they're in trouble its their own fault. Talk about predatory lending. You could buy a Harley, upgrade it to 110," Buy a 4 year maintanence plan, a helmet, vest, jacket, chaps, gloves, boots, sunglasses, t shirts, whatever, and finance it all for 99 months. And when the banks were lending at 5 and 6%, HD credit was 9%. I'm glad to have seen the article in Dealernews because I plan on calling my Senators (Wyoming) and informing them of HDs predatory lending practices and asking them to vote against a bailout for HD.

Paul

[Jeffd]

Before they get a penny the CEO's should have to pitch in as well as the workers themselves.  I wonder what the top 10 CEO salaries equal.  Not saying the workers should take it in the shorts but if each one gave up 50 cents an hour.  Maybe the workers could give up 1 cnet per hour for each percentage point the CEO's gave up ie CEO give up 60% worker give up 60 cents.

[silvercab996]

Let's start by having the CEO and some of the other principals sell off a few of their personal assets. A beach home here, a plane there, a few collector paintings and such.

Not gonna happen. It's not the same of what any of us would do to try to save our company.

I think it's a game to them. The Co could disolve and it wouldn't affect their live style one bit!

They would either retire or just move on to another business.

[ST40]

About an hour ago Fox News reported the HD factory is laying off 1100 workers.  I don't know if federal assistance is the answer, but I do know they had better offer some incentives or lower their prices to try to help themselves first and foremost.  It's no different than some of the things I have to do in my own business including getting by on less than I have had in the past.                  Marty

[HIPPO]

There is a lot I could say about that but it wouldn't be nice      ..... I think I'll watch

I'm with sonny on this one.

I shouldn't but I'll say something.

If you read the article the problem is with Eaglemark Bank and HD Credit. If they're in trouble its their own fault. Talk about predatory lending. You could buy a Harley, upgrade it to 110," Buy a 4 year maintanence plan, a helmet, vest, jacket, chaps, gloves, boots, sunglasses, t shirts, whatever, and finance it all for 99 months. And when the banks were lending at 5 and 6%, HD credit was 9%. I'm glad to have seen the article in Dealernews because I plan on calling my Senators (Wyoming) and informing them of HDs predatory lending practices and asking them to vote against a bailout for HD.

Paul

If you look at it a little further, it is not predatory lending. Just the contrary, it is a underpricing of risk.

With the low or non existent down payments, and the amount financed higher then the value of the collateral, the borrowers have no skin in the game and at the slightesy headwind can jingle mail the keys and walk away. The bank gets killed with losses. The residual value of ALL the bikes takes a hit.

It has the secondary effect of pulling sales forward inflating demand. Now comes the downside, including the market saturation with low mileage used bikes.

Not unlike what domestic car companies did by rolling upside down people into new loans for up to 140% of collateral. Never mind government policy forcing sale of real estate to utterly unqualified people under the guise of "expanding home ownership".

[quikbike]

If you look at it a little further, it is not predatory lending. Just the contrary, it is a underpricing of risk.


Same thing that killed the housing market

[One4Tone]

..when harley was building 400,000 plus units a year..they had no choce but to do "predatory lending"..otherwise unless they dropped the price dramaticly how else would they move so many bikes..I think the key to the problem was over production..the upside to the whole mess is prices did come down a bit after 04..(too late for me)..paid a big price for my 03 FLHT..which is a great bike but worth only 45% on a trade in..(mint with 20 miles)..so I'm keeping it meaning it took me out of the market...timing really messed up harley...and many pre 04 customers as far as upgrading to newer models..these bikes last a life time and beyond..still have my 72 FL after 29 years and running great..in some ways harley may be a victim of it's own success..they may have to differsify like AMF did building sports equipment, golf carts, etc..personally I wonder  why don't they build a car like the "smart car" using the harley engine..I would buy one if the price was reasonable..build a little coupe with the v-rod engine..they have name recognition..all they would have to do is build and maybe instead of imports people would buy us made cars made by harley..they have the work personel..they have the plants, they have good engineers (well the jury may still be out on that one)..lol..I suppose the wage factor in the U.S. could be a factor.. that  may needs tweeking..the stock has crashed 70's down to teens...I think it's time to re-think, re-organise their productions..and keep the prices low..why is a side hack 6000 bucks(in Canada) so I can take the OL and the dog for a ride out in the country..?..when for that money I can buy a decent old chevy pickup..which will allow me to take the dog the OL and the scooter out in the country..time to re-think MoCo!!!

[fxrp]

..they had no choce but to do "predatory lending"..otherwise unless they dropped the price dramaticly how else would they move so many bikes..

HD's lending policies have nothing to do with trying to move bikes. They were deliberatly loan-sharking.

You could put helmets, boots, chrome dodads, etc on the loan with HD Credit; the banks and credit unions wouldn't allow it
so HD Credit charged 9% interest when the bank rate was 5.5%.

You could add pipes, AC, and SERT, or even go all the way with a 110" kit, or add a 2, 3, or 4 year maintanence plan and roll it all into loan; the banks and credit unions wouldn't allow it. HD did it to unfairly compete with the independent shops.

So by the time you add all that to say an $16k bike you end up with a $25k loan and the poor sucker can't afford the payment, so HD stretches the term out to 99 months, 8.25 years; the banks and credit unions won't do that.

So HD Credit gets the loan through unethical practices and if Eagle Mark Savings Bank and HD Credit Co are choking on their bad debt, that's just tough $hit.

Paul

[Faast Ed]

fxrp, that is exactly what they tried to shove up my a, when I was buying my last bike. The part that pissed me off the most was that I clearly stated from the beginning that I wanted them to "run it" thru the same credit union I bought my last bike through.  A few days later when I come to finish the deal, I find that they never even ran the numbers thru my credit union.
All I got was a long winded speech on how I can get more accessories with the larger-limit, longer term (higher interest) HD credit.  .... as well as an unwelcome delay while they started over.

[fxrp]

Yeah I think its unbelieveable. I think HD is in competition trying for the title as the world's oldest profession.

These guys are so greedy, my local dealer, Cheyenne, WY HD was selling bikes without collecting sales taxes to try to compete with surrounding dealerships. They got audited by the State Attorney General's Office and are now making payments to the AG for restitution of taxes, fines, penalties, and interest.

Paul

[Tollbooth]

 Today on comcast news. The experts are saying this stimulus is only stalling what should happen now. The depression will last 10 to 12 years. The Dow will go down to 3500 to 5000. Not good news. Bottom line is be prepared . Keep something liquid, just to live on. Dry goods should be stocked. Man this seems like the plot to a lousy movie.
TB

[dakota224]

I hear ya tollbooth. im stocking up on everything.. including Silver bars   

[fxrp]

Man it isn't that bad. The situation was much worse during Carter's administration and we didn't have all this chicken little paranoia.

For the last 2 years during the primary and campaign all we heard was how Bush's over spending ruined the economy. Two weeks ago I watched Obama live on TV stating that "the problem with our economy is Government isn't spending enough." All this 'sky is falling' BS is spin trying to pass the Dems welfare (incentive) program.

Paul

[harborjohn]

The Dems havent figured it out yet. The government does not create jobs. The private sector creates jobes to make money and pay taxes. The gov can only make it easier for the private sector to create more jobs to pay more taxes. Whithout the private sector creating jobs and paying taxes there can not be a Govt. More Govt jobs is like more welfare!

[Kansas]

I was reading in the Wall Street Journal that banks are taking the bail out money and buying Treasury Bonds with it for the safety.  Thus all these billions get printed and then come right back to the Treasury.  There is still no liquidity in the financial markets and companies can't get the credit they need to stay in business.  I had planned on ordering a 2009 FLSTH about now but I think I'll dwaddle and see if Harley can survive this.  I hate to spend $20K for a brand new orphan with no factory to back up the warranty.

[tireater]

The warranty is not really that important if they deny your claim anyway...

[Ultrashovel]

Oh,but today is the day all our troubles will be over as "The great and all mighty Obama" is at the helm.

I was awaiting some mention of our saviour who art in Washington. Hallowed be his name. I agree totally. Let Obama fix it. He told us he would. 

We don't have anything to worry about with Obama in charge.....do we? I mean.....do we?   

[longrider1951]

If you read H-D's quarterly report they're cutting production to try and keep prices and margins up.  Harley's margins were around 35% and the dealers margins are around 20%. This means that 50% of the price you pay is profit to somebody.  My son worked at a dealership that sold him a bike at cost, if you took Harley's markup out of the equation the bike cost about $8000 to produce.  The Msrp on the bike was $14,000.

Harley could put an Msrp of $11,520 on that bike and still have a 20% margin for them self and 20% for the dealer.  The reason the Japanese are eat they're lunch is pure greed.

Just my opinion, Glenn

I had posted this as a reply to another topic, but it really fits in better here.

[softailwins]

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-harley24-2009jan24,0,1832593.story

[Molly]

Things haven't completely imploded here in NZ as bikes are still selling well (though the doom-sayers are stirring as much "Potty mouth" as possible). I just think H-D need to push overseas sales as much as possible. I guess they know that though or they wouldn't have bought MV Augusta.