Very Interesting, and then a resurrection, The End

[billbuilds]

     Ok, I look a little closer and I do see a machined groove on the face of the breather gear indicating L77-84. Does the cam gear have a machined groove on it's face as well? If so you have the L77-84 style pinion gear/breather gear/cam gear combo. That's the same breather gear and pinion gear that was used on the Evo's so you can use an Evo cam provided you change lifter blocks, pushrods  and rocker arms. VelvaTouch makes a kit where you can keep the stock oiling and another where you can run oil thru the pushrod tubes like an Evo. Either way, will also need to machine down rocker shaft spacers as the Evo arms are just a bit longer. Great pics, thanks for posting them. Bill     

[War Horse]

Bill, the breather and pinion gear dont have machined grooves, more of of a scribe mark, the breather #0 . 070701B has what looks like a upside down T on it, the cam gear has the machined notch that IIRC all had.

I know this guys not going to want to go the Evo cam route.

And another observation is that the breather hole was never degree'd or opened up, not even made square....... now I got to try and find my old  notes about opening up the breather hole, this crap used to be in my head, but that was a long time ago!

[shovelbill]

Whats known so far is that I measured the stroke, which came out to 4 3/4" and the bore is a 3 5/8" this would add up to 98" , yes?

The breather gear says "Ultima" on it, the pinion gear has "RBD" not sure about the B part as the gear is cut into it and my eyesight isn't what it used to be.

The only flywheel numbers I can read for now through the timing hole is "A07U2868" I don't think these are S&S numbers, but the jugs and pistons are definitely S&S

that combo does make 98"......true. but i believe the "sidwinder" kits come with S&S rods and 8 1/4" wheels..........i'm curious to see what combo you have in there.....piston numbers would help. did you measure the height of the barrels? i believe the S&S sidewinder jugs are 5.530" (+ .200") and some 98" motors have to come out of the frame to remove the rear head, at least my friend's motor did.........you got "lucky" i guess.

very cool thread

[War Horse]

piston # 92-1800, 4 1/4 stamped on the boss, I dont have the cylinders right now as their at the machine shop with the heads getting cut for the 3 5/8 bore.

I'll be doing the valve work when I get them back and measure the cyl's at that time.

I believe that a clearer picture will present itself when I get the bottom end apart.

And I'll post up some more pictures later in the week when I get back on it.

[Hillside Motorcycle]

I see I beam rods which says to me it's not stock.  There are manufacturers marks on the wheels and rods, well..should be any way.  Splitting the cases was the best decision you could have made with this motor being its a mystery.   I can't imaging going forward with a top end build not knowing whats going on inside the case. 
You will end up with a reliable motor and not be riding around with your fingers crossed.

Once again I toss my vote in with Mark and give a call to Leineweber. He is a fountain of info and loves sharing his knowledge. 

Good luck....

Eagle rods, that Tedds sold for a while.
We bought the last 20 sets that were available, when they were dumping them.
They didn't catch on that well, but they are good.
We ran them in our racer, and never broke 'em.
Scott

[War Horse]

Ahh, Eagle rods, yep those are good, I had them in my 9 second drag car , 460 motor..... thanks

[shovelbill]

it's hard to tell from the picture, but i don't think those are Eagle rods......at least i can't see the rib inside the beam.

Eagle female and chinarican male....

[War Horse]

Heres a better picture, looks like the same thing..

[War Horse]

The plot thickens, since I dont care about sports or TV for that matter, I figured I'd go ahead and pull the motor and at least get the wheels out...


Ah-ha








Somebady tell me what the score was tomorrow......... 

[Lew]

Utima..velly intellesting.

[War Horse]

Looking through the Ultima site I dont see a 4 3/4 stroke set of wheels..... "Potty mouth" , I measured it 3 times, age mighta caught up with me, dead brain cells an such.......  cant believe the things I've forgoten, but some's coming back.. 

[Old Crow]

center of pinion to center of crank pin times 2. 

[shovelbill]

Ultima makes "heavy counterweights" in 4.25-4.75 and "no stroke"..............they weigh 27 pounds. my friend just bought the 4.5's......they're 8 1/2" also.....4 timing marks.....$220 to his door.

should have a Jims crank pin in there too with those rods.

[War Horse]

center of pinion to center of crank pin times 2. 

Old Crow, never thought of that, I did a BDC to TDC = stroke, hope I wasnt reading the measuring stick wrong..... 

[War Horse]

Well things are going slow and every part I touch seems to be put together wrong, shims on the left side rocker box behind the spacer, a binding rocker arm, cases that don't match ( high and ridge in center by .005) rings that were installed improperly, etc. , cant even remember all the other chit I've run into right now.

And to make matters worse, the friggen machine shop decides to A. not deck the cases (due to lack of equipment) and sand the deck, when only asked to press on one Timken on the flywheels , he decides to put one race in the case that haven't been cleaned from bead blast material and need grinding for breather work. B. I'm so pissed right now I cant see straight, that's what I get for sending the customer there. This area really is the pits when it comes to having things done right !!  Arrrrgg 

I'll post up some more pictures later this week as I regain my composure, needed to get this off my chest...... 

[Lew]

I feel yer pain..seems half the stuff I work on is stuff that came back from a shop that did it half azzed.  The other half is stuff the owner did half azzed.

[Reddog74usa]

  best thing you can do is walk away from it and come back when your chilled out. It will be that much nicer when you get er done right

[War Horse]

Lewy, I cant believe it, even the threads under the one rocker arm shaft, ya know the one to hold the bracket for the air cleaner brace, was so over tightened that I had to beat the the hell out of the shaft to get it out, now I'm in there with a dremel sanding barrel trying to get it back together, this started out as a fun job to help a buddy out......  and is doing more to piss me off. Some people need their hands cut off , so they never touch an engine again    I really wish I hadnt sold my engine shop and all, but theres not much call for doing the old iron right anymore, but then again everybody's a Harley expert on those..... God help me I really am burnt out , this just aint fun anymore....

Been a bad day, tomorrow is a new day, maybe even a better outlook on things, maybe I'm to ol skool....... 


Reddog, yep, thats what I did, just venting and having a few cocktails....... 

[Lew]

Sometimes hero's just don't get the respect they deserve.  When I bail people out from crap like this I make sure they know where I stand.  I agree some people need their hands cut off so they don't cause any more trouble than they've caused already.  Sometimes I wonder how some people have managed to survive as long as they have being so friggin stupid.  Concider yourself a hero brother and make sure they know it.  Just maybe it will sink in for them when you do.
I get the feeling you and I would work well together..

[War Horse]

Thanks Lewy, good news today just got done talking with my buddy and we decided to order a new set of S&S cases  the old ones have to many questionable things going on, and I never liked the stock cases for a big bore anyway. I'm not gonna go into what wondrous job the machine shop did on these, suffice it to say that repairing what he just did will cost more to repair than its worth. I'm going to feel a hole lot better about this build now !

Gonna go bead blast some heads now and start doing the valve job..... the only thing on this engine that wasn't FUBAR was the oil pump..... 

[Lew]

Right on!  Now you will have some piece of mind on the build.  I agree, not a fan of big bore on stock cases, not much meat left. Sounds like those stock cases weren't a matching set from the factory.  With the deck being the way it was no telling what else was out of align. 
I just got back from a shop that I had do some crack repairs on a rear belt inner primary.  When I took it there I told the guy doing the work that he needed to connect the ground to the casing so there would be no arcing on the machined flange the outer cover bolts to.  I go there (after several phone calls and waiting three weeks for it) and find he didn't ground the part like I asked but just laid in on the table and welded it.  The flange was arced and pitted all around, with the worst one being right at the bottom.  I was so pissed I told him there was no way I was going to pay for this.  He insisted I said nothing about grounding the piece separately (that is supposed to make it all right??).  The owner of the place popped out of his office and told the guy that welded it that he distinctly remembered me saying that.  He then commenced to chewing the guy a new one and told me to just take it without paying.  So, now I'm here sanding the flange down so the gasket has a chance to seal.
It amazes me how some of these shops stay in business.
Sometimes, I feel I'm the only one that has a clue..when did I get so special?   

[War Horse]

Sometimes, I feel I'm the only one that has a clue..when did I get so special?   

We're a dying breed,its hard to explain , what with all the blowhards and their dyno charts and flow charts, trying to justify the prices for crap that may or may not work in the real world..... but I guess it gives people a reason to feel good about numbers that don't mean chit.

I just cant understand why some "professional" cant just do what I want and nothing more, for Christ sake, I'm building the thing and I didn't ask for their input, maybe trying to have some fun and keeping it light is a sign of stupidity. I have always tried to have some fun between the seriousness of the work.

Gotta say that I wish I had not sold my shop and still had the equipment, but then again I was tired of buying everything to keep up, and having people whine about the cost.

This build has just about driven me off the deep end of others stupidity and incompetence, and may not do any more.

Jeesh, when did it quit being fun...

[shovelbill]

can i ask as to why you chose S&S cases over STD or Ultima?

[War Horse]

Bill, we haven't settled on one yet, we are also considering Delkron, talking with S&S yesterday didn't instill allot of confidence due to the fact that the guy didn't know if the S&S oil pump I have would fit, something about only 79 to 84 pump will fit 

Back when I was doing this full time S&S did well for me and back then I had some issues with STD heads dropping seats....... times change though, where you cant count on the standard being set by any one manufacture.

So , with all the choices , what do you guys like ?

[turboprop]

Cases are not available yet from STD, maybe by the end of the year. I talked with Jason Moses of Delkron at the expo, they have evo cases on the shelf.

I have used cases from every manufacturer except Ultima and prefer the Delkrons. Aside from being extra thick, that trap door has helped out on several occasions.