Need help with cold start on TTS

[wolf_59]

tuning 06 Heritage 95" S&S .583 cams since installing TTS when doing cold start up bike dies right away restart and idles good for a little while and start running rough then dies, What should I be looking to adjust? Had the same problem with my 06 Ultra until I took the idle area out of closed loop would like to learn how to fix this

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[Steve Cole]

Where are you located at? The reason I ask this is when you look at the MAP reading it's only going to 82.3 kPa with the engine not running. I would first try to increase the Cranking Fuel at 0 and 16 deg C. Maybe about 10% at 0 and 20% at 16. Then try increasing the Warmup Enrichment at the same two temperature places about 10%

[wolf_59]

Farmington NM 5928' elevation at my house

Where are you located at? The reason I ask this is when you look at the MAP reading it's only going to 82.3 kPa with the engine not running. I would first try to increase the Cranking Fuel at 0 and 16 deg C. Maybe about 10% at 0 and 20% at 16. Then try increasing the Warmup Enrichment at the same two temperature places about 10%

Thanks Steve I'll give that a try

[Steve Cole]

Since you are that high I would return the Warmup Enrichment back to the base calibration along with making the changes to Cranking fuel and see how that does. You made so many changes to the base calibration that seem to not make sense to me.

[FLTRI]

IME, 6k altitude needs a much leaner, not richer, warm up enrichment than in the base map as they are set for Wisconsin winter starts at sea level.
Bob

[wolf_59]

Since you are that high I would return the Warmup Enrichment back to the base calibration along with making the changes to Cranking fuel and see how that does. You made so many changes to the base calibration that seem to not make sense to me.

Copied and paste tables from from BNU141-83
The first recommendation didn't work any better
I'll keep trying

IME, 6k altitude needs a much leaner, not richer, warm up enrichment than in the base map as they are set for Wisconsin winter starts at sea level.
Bob

Thanks Bob thats what I was thinking

[FLTRI]

...Copied and paste tables from from BNU141-83...

IME, way too much warmup enrichment. Highlight the whole "Warm up Enrichment" table and choose "Set to Original" from top of the page.

Then reduce those numbers by 25% by typing 25 into the percent window and hit the Decrease.

Put that calibration into the bike without any other changes and see how it starts/runs.

Let us know,
Bob

[Steve Cole]

Since you are that high I would return the Warmup Enrichment back to the base calibration along with making the changes to Cranking fuel and see how that does. You made so many changes to the base calibration that seem to not make sense to me.

Copied and paste tables from from BNU141-83
The first recommendation didn't work any better
I'll keep trying

IME, 6k altitude needs a much leaner, not richer, warm up enrichment than in the base map as they are set for Wisconsin winter starts at sea level.
Bob

Thanks Bob thats what I was thinking

No need to Copy and Paste. Just highlight the table and then <click> on the set to Original. I think two things might be happening with your startup. The first thing is what the Crank fuel changes were to address. The second thing would be the Warmup Enrichment. Starting has to fall into a few groups. The first one is about getting the walls wet with fuel and the engine to fire and run. Then the crank to run and warmup fuel has to take over. So my increase in Crank fuel was to try and see if the extra fuel there made any change in how long it ran from the dead cold start you have. Warmup Fuel has to take over from there along with the IAC. Since your IAC looked good in your data log I believe it's the fuel that needs addressing.

[wolf_59]

Thanks guys I reset everything and will try fresh in the AM when it's cold, been working the timing and VE's today almost got it

[wolf_59]

Think I have it, was looking at another datascan from the stock 88" mapping which the idle worked just fine on even after the engine upgrades and noticed on the stock map startup timing was at 20* until 32*C engine temp and desired AFR was 11.5 @ 0*C 13.1 @ 16*C and 14.1 @ 32*C
made adjustments in the closed throttle spark and in the warmup areas to try to mimic the above letting it cool now to try again

Thanks for the input and any other suggestions you might have

[wolf_59]

Still haven't found the answer except to put it in open loop and hand the bike over to my buddy tell him to go ride and I'll work the same issue on my 06 Ultra unless someone has another idea that might help?

[Steve Cole]

Data log a cold start again with your newest changes. Also see if you can stand behind the bike when starting and smell the exhaust. Since we have no way to know what's going on at cold start on your bike the smell test can give us some clue if it smells rich or not.

[FLTRI]

Still haven't found the answer except to put it in open loop and hand the bike over to my buddy tell him to go ride and I'll work the same issue on my 06 Ultra unless someone has another idea that might help?

You said you reset everything to the baseline. What happened when you ran it. No change? Better? Worse?
Bob

[wolf_59]

it was worse, tried leaning warmup by 10% no change so went back the other way tonight did 8 attempts at cold start increasing the entire warmup cells by 10% each time until it finally start choking from being to rich then back it off 5% and it started and ran all the way to operating temp but by that time the engine temp had come up some so I'll have to try it again in the AM

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[strokerjlk]

your map looks nice.
if that was a data log you posted, I couldn't open it.
it isn't showing any signs of accel enrichment activity at idle is it?

[glens]

The datalog "opened" fine for me...

Why are the CLBs all set to 447 in the calibration?

[wolf_59]

your map looks nice.
if that was a data log you posted, I couldn't open it.
it isn't showing any signs of accel enrichment activity at idle is it?

Thanks
I didn't even think to look for that but I didn't see any

Why are the CLBs all set to 447 in the calibration?

vtunes a lot better there

[wolf_59]

the stock 88 open loop calibration does the cold start just fine, but datalog file is too large to post. I'll try to email it to Steve C for review
But here are some datalogs that just hit and die starting with baseline on warmup enrichment
I understand this is difficult to do over the internet and I appreciate those of you that are willing to try to help





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[wolf_59]

it isn't showing any signs of accel enrichment activity at idle is it?

Strokerjlk, I had to go over these logs again and you were right sometimes the accel enrichment activating just before it dies
what's the cause of that and what should I look at to correct it

[lonewolf]

Why is the injector bpw so high?

[FLTRI]

Consider this:
Lean idle VEs (50-60s as compared to rest of tables) yet excessively rich warm up enrichment is needed...at his altitude?

Most of the time I reduce warm up enrichment by up to 20%-25% to provide a nice clean warm up @ high altitude.

The user modified warm up enrichment in the cal posted is abnormally excessive IME..maybe even enough fuel to kill the engine?

Just don't make sense to me.

Bob

[strokerjlk]

it isn't showing any signs of accel enrichment activity at idle is it?

Strokerjlk, I had to go over these logs again and you were right sometimes the accel enrichment activating just before it dies
what's the cause of that and what should I look at to correct it

is it surging at idle. back and forth between 25-30 kpa?
is the timing dancing around ?
sorry I have not looked at any of the data files..
a number of things could cause this , but if you got it dialed in,and the kpa and or timing is still dancing around,get that lined out. if it is smooth and steady? then two things will take care of it.
open loop idle. but you already seen that.
or another cal.

[glens]

Why are the CLBs all set to 447 in the calibration?

vtunes a lot better there

Really?

What do you do with the VEs when you change the CLBs after v-tune?

[wolf_59]

Why is the injector bpw so high?

I noticed that too but I don't know thats why I'm asking

Consider this:
Lean idle VEs (50-60s as compared to rest of tables) yet excessively rich warm up enrichment is needed...at his altitude?

Most of the time I reduce warm up enrichment by up to 20%-25% to provide a nice clean warm up @ high altitude.

The user modified warm up enrichment in the cal posted is abnormally excessive IME..maybe even enough fuel to kill the engine?

Just don't make sense to me.

Bob

I only tried 10% leaner than Baseline last night before trying richer I'll try going leaner tonight and see what happens there, Just not understanding why in closed loop warmup afr 11.5 desired it wont stay running without help but switch to open loop with same warmup afr and just hit the start button and walk away no issues

is it surging at idle. back and forth between 25-30 kpa?
is the timing dancing around ?
sorry I have not looked at any of the data files..
a number of things could cause this , but if you got it dialed in,and the kpa and or timing is still dancing around,get that lined out. if it is smooth and steady? then two things will take care of it.
open loop idle. but you already seen that.
or another cal.

Once I get it to stay running for a minute idle is fine KPA 37-40 and timing steady

[strokerjlk]

Just not understanding why in closed loop warmup afr 11.5 desired it wont stay running without help but switch to open loop with same warmup afr and just hit the start button and walk away no issues

is the accel enrichment kicking in and out in closed loop still?
in open loop it dosent kick in and out?
take all the accel enrichment out and try closed loop again.
sensor's working proper?
are you able to sample and see actual AFR on cold start up?


set it at 13.8 and let it be happy

Why is the injector bpw so high?

I noticed that too but I don't know thats why I'm asking

If it wasn't set up with a smaller inj constant , it would never have enough VE head room with a 94.6 ci constant.  given the current ve tables.