TTS Mastertune Noob Question

[dcgray2]

All,

I am trying to get up to speed over the next couple of weeks on the TTS software in preparation for firing the bike up the first time.

My configuration will be:

2010 FB Lo
103" @ 9.42:1 Corrected Compression
Ported Heads (83cc, 1.9 Intake)
Ported Stock TB (HPI)
S&S 570 cam
S&S Tuned Induction Intake
D&D Lowcat 2:1 Exhaust
SE Injectors (4.9 gm/s)

I am looking for a starting calibration and based on the docs it looks like:

DNI176-03   2006 â€" 2011  2 into 1 Exhaust with O2 Sensors
Configuration: 1690 SHO with 50 mm Intake
Components:
• 4.9 G/S High Flow Injectors
• Air Cleaner and Breather Kit 
• 50 mm EFI Throttle Body
• 3 7/8" Big Bore Cylinders
• 3 7/8" 103+ Forged Stroker Pistons
• 103+ Heads 
• .569” Lift 252/260 Duration Camshaft
• 2:1 Exhaust

Is the best match.  It looks like a slam dunk to me, but can anyone confirm or suggest a better alternative?  The duration is slightly off, can that be adjusted after the calibration is loaded?

Also, when firing up for the first time should I do anything "special" for the TTS?  I have read about tuning the idle as a first step, but anything beyond that before starting v-tune runs?

[Scotty]

What year & model is your bike  ?

[HogMike]

Read the help files as much as you can.
If that calibration is as close as your build is you will be pretty spot on.....nothing a few V-tunes can't dial in.
Make sure you follow the procedure on your first time saving/loading a new file.
Depending where you bought the TTS that vendor may help you over the phone or email to speed things along.
Remember: "service after the sale"
IF you have any issues getting a clean running bike, go the source: TTS or your local tech who is knowledgeable with your software.
If all else fails,  you can also ask questions here!
JMHO, of course.

[dcgray2]

@Scotty

2010 FB Lo

@HOGMIKE:

I will be reading every scrap of documentation several times, but I'm out of town (working) for the next week and wanted to get a little bit of progress accomplished if possible.

I'm sure the vendor will be happy to help me and I know Steve pops into these forums occasionally, but I also know I and others have gotten really good answers that I trust here on HTT.

@Coyote

Thanks for moving, I am so used to hitting the Twincam forum for my build, I had forgot there was a tuning forum!

[rbabos]

Don't rule out the DNO176 as well. For my last build it worked better than the DNI even though I was running a 2-1.
Ron

[dcgray2]

Don't rule out the DNO176 as well. For my last build it worked better than the DNI even though I was running a 2-1.
Ron

Ron,

Is there something to look at that would indicate one would be better than the other or does it boil down to the fact that the bike seems to run better with one of them?

[rbabos]

Don't rule out the DNO176 as well. For my last build it worked better than the DNI even though I was running a 2-1.
Ron

Ron,

Is there something to look at that would indicate one would be better than the other or does it boil down to the fact that the bike seems to run better with one of them?

For a grass roots approach pick the one that seems the smoothest during cold start and has the best idle when hot and showing a idle kpa between 35-40.  This is the one I would tune with since it just seems to be a closer fit. Why that is I don't know since many cals look the same but don't act the same with the engine running.
Ron

[TXP]

Might I suggest if you really want to learn as you go, pay a pro tuner. And find one that doesn't mind you watching the process. And, if you want to actually be in the dyno room and learn step by step what changes and why they are being made, well that takes more time and does and should cost a little more. Also if you decide to pay a "pro" make sure you get a copy of your final tune. Thats not to beat up your tuner with either. You could post up a tune done by GOD and someone on the boards would find fault with it. A "perfect "tune is as elusive as a unicorn. The net and these boards are a great resource, but beware of some of the analysis you see on any board of any particular dyno run. Its easy to stack the numbers. And might I add its all too easy to blame TUNER'S for bad builds using known engine configs. I know I've been kicked in the nuts more than once by very respected tuners on THIS board who simply had no idea of what the CUSTOMER had done or more importantly had not done BEHIND THE SCENES during the build. Tuning is not a replacement for engine building 101.

[dcgray2]

Might I suggest if you really want to learn as you go, pay a pro tuner. And find one that doesn't mind you watching the process. And, if you want to actually be in the dyno room and learn step by step what changes and why they are being made, well that takes more time and does and should cost a little more. Also if you decide to pay a "pro" make sure you get a copy of your final tune. Thats not to beat up your tuner with either. You could post up a tune done by GOD and someone on the boards would find fault with it. A "perfect "tune is as elusive as a unicorn. The net and these boards are a great resource, but beware of some of the analysis you see on any board of any particular dyno run. Its easy to stack the numbers. And might I add its all too easy to blame TUNER'S for bad builds using known engine configs. I know I've been kicked in the nuts more than once by very respected tuners on THIS board who simply had no idea of what the CUSTOMER had done or more importantly had not done BEHIND THE SCENES during the build. Tuning is not a replacement for engine building 101.

I think it's a great idea.  I was going to start by finding out what kind of beer Mayor likes! 

[HogMike]

@Scotty

2010 FB Lo

@HOGMIKE:

I will be reading every scrap of documentation several times, but I'm out of town (working) for the next week and wanted to get a little bit of progress accomplished if possible.

I'm sure the vendor will be happy to help me and I know Steve pops into these forums occasionally, but I also know I and others have gotten really good answers that I trust here on HTT.

@Coyote

Thanks for moving, I am so used to hitting the Twincam forum for my build, I had forgot there was a tuning forum!

If you're out of town, and want some reading to put you to sleep at night, go here:
http://www.mastertune.net/files/Tuning%20Files/Delphi/Manuals/MasterTune_Tuning_Guide-v133.pdf
Lots of info here, but, you can just read the basics and fill in the gaps at a later time.
Pro tuner would be the quickest option, not the cheapest, and some of us like to "experiment" .
JMHO

[wurk_truk]

For a grass roots approach pick the one that seems the smoothest during cold start and has the best idle when hot and showing a idle kpa between 35-40.  This is the one I would tune with since it just seems to be a closer fit. Why that is I don't know since many cals look the same but don't act the same with the engine running.
Ron

[mayor]

I know you're in PA, but I'm not sure where.  If you are over on the east side of PA, there's two really good pro tuners that would treat you right with a tune- Dave @ JD's (Bethlehem, PA) and Black Hills Ken (in N.J., just outside NY, NY).  There's a couple other pretty good tuners around where I live that I know of as well, if you want to take the easy way out. 

if you're willing to put the time and effort into a diy tune, there's usually plenty of fellows that are willing to jump in and help guide you along the way on this forum...but keep in mind, the tune is only going to be as good as the effort you put into it.  In addition, the only way to make sure you get the most out of a build is to dial the timing in on a dyno to measure results.  At the very least, you should really do a wide open run to check WOT afr after you are satisfied with your diy tune since wide open is a open loop with the Delphi system. I will warn you though, some times it seems like you are treating your bike inhumanely when doing a diy tune. This is not a good option for the squeamish.    

if you want to at least get a tune started for break in, I think Ron has some real good advice regarding what calibration to pick.  The only think I would ad is if you use an mt8 file format, you have the ability to adjust cam timing pulsewidth events that can and will affect MAP at idle.

One other note, check the depth of your o2 sensor bungs.  There's been a few guys that had trouble with the bungs on the D&D pipes.  Here's a good thread that discusses the issue (see reply#13): http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,48219.0.html

[dcgray2]

@HOGMIKE

I have read the entire manual (finished it last night).  I'm a tech guy so that thing was both light weight and lively! 

@wurk_truk

Thanks for the seconding.

@mayor

I am in SW Pa.  I already have a "tuning track" in mind.  I have read some of the threads were you talk about the unnatural style of riding that needs to be done to properly fill the VE tables.  I like a challenge and to ride in such a way sounds like a real challenge so I'm definitely going to take first crack at this myself.

I am one of those annoying people that likes to know "everything" ahead of time.  I will spend an outsized amount of effort prepping for and educating myself about the tuning process to give myself a comfort level that I will get the best possible outcome given my abilities.

The biggest concern I have so far is picking the right starting calibration, because I will likely not be doing much in the way of v-tuning runs right away.  With the new build I want to get the motor broke-in nice and easy before performing unnatural acts with it.

Thank you very much for the heads-up on the bungs...  Added to my list of things to check closely.

[mayor]

The biggest concern I have so far is picking the right starting calibration, because I will likely not be doing much in the way of v-tuning runs right away.  With the new build I want to get the motor broke-in nice and easy before performing unnatural acts with it.

I don't think anyone can guaranty that what ever cal you choose will be close enough, especially since your build is not typical based on what builds were used for the base cal development.  You may be able to get lucky with timing being close, but my guess is the odds would be stacked against the ve tables being right.  IMO, the best thing to do is take baby steps along the way and do small batch vtuning, with ve blending to follow trends, until you have enough miles for more aggressive riding.  You can start with idle vtuning, then no load/bike on kickstand in neutral vtuning, and just work from there.  You should be able to do some idle vtuning while doing initial heat cycles.     Just watch the temps so you don't get a new engine too hot.  Keep in mind, with the right settings in you ecm calibration your fuel system is working in closed loop anyway, so you might as well use the data that is available (vtune info).  The only real change is you are recording the information, and then reapplying that info to a new calibration. 

[mayor]

@mayor
I am in SW Pa.

that should be good vtuning territory.  what county?  I'm just to the east in Bedford.

did you put compression releases in?  you are likely going to need them in that build, unless you went with the easy start cams. 

[dcgray2]

Mayor,

Yeah I guess I jumped to riding around v-tuning, overlooking the opportunity to do sooner "static" v-tuning in the driveway.

The first heat cycling I was going to follow the many small runs procedure from Zippers.

I am reading in posts (particularly those about the 120R and TTS) about tuning for cold idle and warm idle.  Do I understand correctly that the sequence for startup, cold idle, and warm idle  are governed by the

Tables:

- Cranking Fuel vs. Temperature
- Crank to Run Steps vs. Temperature
- Engine Idle Speed vs. Temperature
- IAC Warmup Steps vs. Temperature
- Warmup Enrichment vs. Temperature
- Closed Throttle Spark

Settings:

- Idle Spark Control Gain
- Idle Spark Control Max

And it sounds like timing is set to 0* until the bike fires and would then be set according to the Closed Throttle Spark table.

So based on this breakdown, when I am doing the startups during the heat cycling procedure, I should be monitoring how the bike is running and evaluating all of these tables / settings. 

OK so finally here's my questions:

1) Can I hook my laptop up to the TTS and turn on data capture BEFORE the bike is started? 

2) Between the time the bike was turned on and started it would be in CRANK MODE, immediately after it fired it would transition to RUN MODE, but how will I know when it starts applying the Enrichment table?  Will I see that in the data capture?  Will I see it decay out?  Or does the adjustments to these "pre-warmed-up engine" tables all have to be done by "feel".

I am in Fayette county.  Not too far from you.     I was going to utilize RT 40 from Washington PA up through the Summit in Uniontown as my circuit.

Yes I have the easy start cams.

[HogMike]

What year bike? (what year ecm?)

[dcgray2]

2010 FB Lo

[strokerjlk]

For a grass roots approach pick the one that seems the smoothest during cold start and has the best idle when hot and showing a idle kpa between 35-40.  This is the one I would tune with since it just seems to be a closer fit. Why that is I don't know since many cals look the same but don't act the same with the engine running.
Ron

even with the newest cals?
they all idle like crap anymore.
you DIY guys got your work cut out for you.

[tunaman]

Here's a link to the Mototune USA procedure, which is quite popular with many:
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

Also, be sure to read through Steve's post on Understanding what kPa is for tuning, if you haven't done so already:
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,48058.100.html

You've got access to a great brain trust here, so it is wise to take advantage of it if you are doing it yourself. Many have been able to get good results with such guidance, and many others have had less than satisfactory results. Hard to be an expert in an area where we have limited experience - the real good tuners here have numerous years of experience working with these systems.

Good luck!
Roger

[dcgray2]

@tunaman

Thanks for bringing that link up.  I love how I start out with one precept and then move away from it with the info and experience on this site.

After doing lots more research it does seem like there are a BUNCH of people in the "break it in hard" camp.  When I get back home I am going to look at the pistons I pulled out of the bike, but I think I saw some blow by of the top ring.  It was broke in easy (of course this is happened AFTER the factory ran the bike up to 90+ mph right off the assembly line (personally witnessed at York) and the dealer tech took it for a ride) by me.

Here's my current thinking:

- Turn motor over without plugs till oil is seen in rocker boxes
- Do three "heat cycles" of the bike: 30 secs, 1 min, 5 min with lots of cooling in between.  Not for purposes of heat treating anything (where the hell did he get that from?) but more for letting things expand and contract and triple checking everything before getting on it and riding.  Also, sneak peek some data acquisition from engine / evaluate calibration selection.
- Make 3 separate 15 minute or so runs (after warm-up) with cool-down in-between using agressive (not abusive) acceleration and deceleration.  For each run record v-tuning data and apply.
- Start serious v-tuning runs

The thing I got from steve's thread about kPa was that from a data acquisition / analysis standpoint throttle position is "another piece of information also recorded" at that the time that the kPa and RPM were a certain combination.

And from reading some of Mayor's posts, as a rider, varying your TP in conjunction with terrain will help generate various kPa readings at various RPMs which will make the tuning process more complete / better.

[tunaman]

I did three heat cycles yesterday - 15 seconds, 45 seconds, and 3 minutes, letting it cool down fully each time.

Be sure you roll on, and also roll off, in your ranges. As I understand it, the rings seat in each direction and deceleration is as importand as acceleration.

Roger

[wedjim]

Yes, decel actually will seat the rings best, since the engine is under the most vacuum on decel, which forces or loads the rings into the cylinders.

Great links, looking at the TTS myself. Auto Master Tech, but never beyond PCIII in bikes.....Yet.