2012 TTS Tuning with engine changes

[Thumper Buttercup]

Sounds like a plan,

    Now to get the weather to corporate, Kim's got a VA appointment
in Fargo Friday and we might do a interstate run down and back or do
a reverse loop depending on weather.  We'll do that with the 41 cal.

    Is it me or we are finally getting close .


Also a big note is in all of this riding no fuel in our oil.

[Thumper Buttercup]

Beautiful Day today to ride, started out low 80's and ended up at
86 with no wind.

I did three data runs today and I goofed on my first fill-up and put
oxygenated fuel in, they had two hoses of 91 octane, reading on
the web the oxygenated fuel had ethanol added.

Bike felt good the first run, second run some heat from the exhaust
and the third run up the interstate the rear cylinder felt like you were
sitting in traffic with the heat I could feel off of it.  I did not have the
IR with me so I could not see how hot it really was.

Oil temps on the first run were about 190, second was about 200 and
the third run up the interstate was about 220 so the bike was cooler
or felt so.

Mike on the first run I stopped in the middle of no where to see if
it would get hot, on the second run near the end we were at a stoplight
looks like she is not getting hot at idle now like it was.

Cal 41

Scandatatest1-041  https://www.box.com/s/4ee438e2ebcadc72259d

40 mpg

Scandatatest2-041   https://www.box.com/s/de97a30eaf8bbe56412f

39.1 mpg

Scandatatest3-041   https://www.box.com/s/f0eb266a47efa9898c31

29.2 mpg

Our plan tomorrow is to take the 42 cal and vtune it several times
then do two data runs like we did last weekend.


Tuesday Kim has a VA appt for a X-ray we plan to ride down and reverse our
loop that day.

[Thumper Buttercup]

Ain't riding nowhere today,

   Looking at my voltages the bike is going on the lift to see
what is wrong with my charging system



Quick Fix: someone zip stripped the ground cable too tight, she
will remain nameless

Putting out 14.3+ with a meter, gauge shows a little less as always.

[Thumper Buttercup]

Got the bike fixed,

   Feel like crap so no riding, Mike I'm going to run the 41 cal
again Tuesday to Fargo and reverse our loop and see how things
go.

I'll run data and see if there is any difference with the voltage
running like it should.

[Thumper Buttercup]

Mike,

   I'm looking back at my Vtunes and my data, am I overrunning
my tunes, riding beyond where their is data??  When I vtune the
42 cal I am going to take it out also not just the lower where you
showed I needed it and the middle for a good overall better data
run.

I notice that most of my problems are at the 0-10% tps and then
in the rear cylinder where my VE's are around the 109 area.

Got the voltage problem fixed and it will be interesting to see if this
makes a change in the data on the 41 Cal

[mayor]

I'm looking back at my Vtunes and my data, am I overrunning
my tunes, riding beyond where their is data?? 

yes, some of your knock retards lately have been occuring outside of vtuned cells.  For best results, you should try to get green cells with purple blocks on the ends (which will usually allow for extended values).   

do you vtuning on cal 42, and I will combine your last data recording info with the new vtuned cal. 

[mayor]

Mark,  try doing a scandata run with this cal.  You still need to do a vtune recording, so we can convert the idle over to open loop but lets keep moving forward.   

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Thumper Buttercup]

Mark,  try doing a scandata run with this cal.  You still need to do a vtune recording, so we can convert the idle over to open loop but lets keep moving forward.   

So vtune this cal and then do a data run??


There's times like this I feel like a boat anchor with my rope around
your neck


OK, looking at the 43 cal its ready to go.  So the Vtune will still be with
the 42 Cal.

Have a good one Mike

[Thumper Buttercup]

OK Mike,

We took off this morning it was about 77 degrees, running on
the interstate, bike felt good, Data looked good, 29.3 mpg.

ScanDataTest1-043  https://www.box.com/s/e37f89ceb07d5d6f82b4



Next run over to Detroit Lakes MN, I take the laptop in at lunch and again the
Data is looking great to me.  38.9 mpg this run, not great but ok.  Again
not much knocking.



So at lunch we are sitting there and take the 43 cal and make a vtune cal 44 and
change the idle like cal 042 and think of loading it up to vtune home.

ScanDataTest2-043  https://www.box.com/s/9f39c0fdea2a4c41570b

I decide to keep on with the Data runs today and we will devote a full day
to Vtunes next.  So we head up to the casino, run really don't look that bad.

ScanDataTest3-043  https://www.box.com/s/70af01cc66b1a7302c60




Lastly run back to Grand Forks again data does not look that bad, this last leg
got us 43.2 mpg.

ScanDataTest4-043  https://www.box.com/s/e1c4fe61c071e3914d3f



The last two runs were about 90 degrees, again we did not hear the pings and
I did not feel them,  the runs look better to me Mike.

We've got some heat so no riding for a couple days for us, I'm thinking of
taking the 43 cal and change the idle like you want and us taking the bike
back out for a full day of good across the board Vtunes and try and get
complete data.

What do you think guys.

[mayor]

 I've only briefly looked at the data, so give me a day or so to dig in and I will post some corrections.   

The very few knock retard events is encouraging.  The poor milage on the first run is somewhat concerning. The rest of the milage reports seem to be in line for a full dressed bike running two up.  If you look at the pink line on your posted screen shots, most of your running in all four data recordings are in closed loop.  The average engine rpm while cruising on the first run seemed to be around 3,200 rpm, the second seems to be around 2,800 rpm, the third is around 2,400 rpm, and the fourth is a mix of 2,400 to 2,800.  The rpm and gas milage seems to correlate. 

[Thumper Buttercup]

Mike, it will not be until Saturday or Sunday before we get out again so don't worry about it.  I think this is the best the bike has done for not knocking.

Don't work too hard, I'm going to look at the 41 cal and the 43 cal and look
at the changes you made to understand the changes you made and how
they effected the bike.

[Thumper Buttercup]

OK,

Can we use 02 sensor voltages to see what AFR we are running in those area using a Data run with the 02 sensor data?

Then what would be the best way of changing the AFR in the closed loop area's?

I know these are basic questions but what am I missing in my thinking?

If we are rich lean can we lean her out a little in these area's to get better mpg?





I'm coming at this like I would do a carb bike, I would raise or lower the clip and then adjust her out with my screw adjustments, I would then ride her and then pull the plugs killing the bike at speed and then going from there.

I can build an engine, do all the electrical work, do plumbing and wiring in the house.  I can build additions to a house....do AC work, rebuild tractors then I get to this and I over think it.

How to we adjust each bike for the maximum mpg and engine longevity?

But I can't get my head around this, I read the posts going on here to learn and there is a snip of good info then most of it gets to bickering or pot shots at TTS and then I give up.

Yesterday at lunch the data was looking very good to me and I almost changed the cal to a vtune thinking this would help straighten it out, then I changed my mind and do two more data runs and see more knocking than I've seen all day, I guess the 90 degree heat and the heat soaked engine did not help?

So we've done the vtunes, I need to do some more and expand the area for better data to extend it out.

I'm seeing our VE's maxed out, do we need lower VE's?

Do we need to drop back and adjust the Closed Loop Bias tables like Steve and others have done for mpg?  I know we have to be careful here for longevity of the 02 sensors.

OK I get a knock, I look at the VE's, RPM, MAP, Engine Temp, I see repeatedly that when my rear cylinder knocks my Map numbers for the front cylinder it 10 to 20 higher and it's not knocking so is the lower VE in the rear contributing to the rear cylinder knock?

I know there is more that this but to my simple mind this is what is jumping out
in my data.

So what do you guys think, yep it's a hot day here no riding, looking at old data and trying to get this straight in my head how could/would I fix this.

Thanks for listening guys.  How about some ideas........BE NICE!!!!!!

[Jeffd]

those big variences in mpg are confusing.  I think you need to ride at least 200 miles between fill ups and always fill up at the same pump.

[Thumper Buttercup]

those big variences in mpg are confusing.  I think you need to ride at least 200 miles between fill ups and always fill up at the same pump.

OK Jeff, if we are only getting 30 mpg how can we ride 200 miles , I've only got a 5 gallon tank.  I could take a day and run down the interstate and back to try and get a few more miles on the tank, we could do a couple of these runs.  Also our 65 mph run we could ride over and then return for more miles and see what it does.

Jeff, what are your CLB tables set at, I know you are running the different system and getting great mpg.

[Jeffd]

I was thinking you had a 2012 bagger.  0.981-0.986 off the top of my head. Not near my computer that has the cal.  I did set the entire closed loop to 0.977 and still got 43 and change mpg at 75mph on a 200 plus mile ride.

[Steve Cole]

Thumper's bike is an early model so he has lower gearing and a 5 speed. I would still expect to see him get in the upper 40's for mileage on an open highway cruise.

[Thumper Buttercup]

Thumper's bike is an early model so he has lower gearing and a 5 speed. I would still expect to see him get in the upper 40's for mileage on an open highway cruise.

OK........HOW??

[1FSTRK]

Are you still running the 48N cams?
What is your CCP?

[mayor]

A full dress touring bike ridden 2 up at interstate speeds getting mid 40's, I'm curious as well.  I can see lighter bikes with less windoad, but a fairing bike with lowers?    

[Thumper Buttercup]

A full dress touring bike ridden 2 up at interstate speeds getting mid 40's, I'm curious as well.  I can see lighter bikes with less windoad, but a fairing bike with lowers?   

Kim is asking if you guys are saying she is FAT


Running the 48N cams, I have not checked the compression on this new build yet, plugs look good, no gas in the oil.


Heck I would be happy with around the 43 we got yesterday when we were running the easy route and maybe 41 on the 65 mph route.  This bike use to pull 35-38 on the interstate.

Heck this bike pulling us and a fully loaded trailer averaged 32-35 hauling ass on the interstate.

[mayor]

A full dress touring bike ridden 2 up at interstate speeds getting mid 40's, I'm curious as well.  I can see lighter bikes with less windoad, but a fairing bike with lowers?   

Kim is asking if you guys are saying she is FAT

no, it wasn't her I was calling fat.   

I don't think mid 40's is a reasonable expectation....but, I think mid to upper 30's is.  Either way, we are clearly not there.  I would welcome Steve's input as to what we would need to do to get there when cruising at 3,200 rpm.  The data is all there, the question is what's the answer. 

[HogMike]

Thumper's bike is an early model so he has lower gearing and a 5 speed. I would still expect to see him get in the upper 40's for mileage on an open highway cruise.

Maybe with a 40MPH tail wind, down hill!
Just never saw that on any of our bikes here. 
I guess it's "possible".

[Thumper Buttercup]

A full dress touring bike ridden 2 up at interstate speeds getting mid 40's, I'm curious as well.  I can see lighter bikes with less windoad, but a fairing bike with lowers?   

Kim is asking if you guys are saying she is FAT

no, it wasn't her I was calling fat.   

I don't think mid 40's is a reasonable expectation....but, I think mid to upper 30's is.  Either way, we are clearly not there.  I would welcome Steve's input as to what we would need to do to get there when cruising at 3,200 rpm.  The data is all there, the question is what's the answer.

Kim just wanted to shake things up

We are getting there, I think the knocking is the best so far.  OK with the
knocking it seems to be that we see more with a heat soaked engine, Kim
was wondering if we should ride to get the bike really heated up then do
the vtunes?

I also caught the shot across the bow in my direction

My friend with the dyno tuned bike is set at 13.6 afr, he is getting pretty
good mileage constantly, that was my reference to if there is a way to
see where our bike is AFR wise with the TTS.

[mayor]

Jeff, what are your CLB tables set at, I know you are running the different system and getting great mpg.

he's running around 14.4-14.47 afr in closed loop.  You are around 14.55 in closed loop.  There's a few differences between the two builds though.....he's got 6th gear, he's runs higher MAP ranges due to higher altitude (allows for more timing at cruise), and he may not be running two up with lowers (Jeff can answer that  ). 

We are getting there, I think the knocking is the best so far.  OK with the
knocking it seems to be that we see more with a heat soaked engine, Kim
was wondering if we should ride to get the bike really heated up then do
the vtunes? 

use your best judgement...but try not to overheat the bike doing the vtuning.  Shouldn't be an issue if you allow for cooling between vtune runs. Don't get too wrapped up in the visual knock retards in the daya recordings, if you aren't hearing them...they may not be real.  They may be a pre-knock event (which is what the system does to protect the engine), but that doesn't mean a knock event is certain to occur.  We want to stop the knock retards from occuring, but they are in no way indicitive of certain failure if not addressed.  We want to adress them to make sure that the ecm isn't constantly pulling timing, but the fear of castistrophic failure due to pinging at this point in your tuning is likely not very high. 

[Jeffd]

Some two up wife is 145 me 175.  Just took lowers off for the summer.

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