TTS - idle - open or closed loop

[Steve Cole]

my idle is in closed loop and it has never been an issue as far as I can tell.  the bike fires up and settles in at 1000 rpm and never wavers.  I have not been in 115* temps but have been in Sturgis traffic at 100*.  I eimts enabled but not sure if it has ever kicked on.  2011 rgu with 20,000 miles.

Skip fire is a function of where the iac point is set withing the ecm constants. Depending on how iac points are determined with tune , settings etc it might never hit the ecm point. Last time I looked that point was adjustable, so most likely skip fire can be set to a given temp . Smoking hot, my iac point would not drop below 14, yet the skip was set to 12. At the time I was reading 300 on the head temp which is too damn hot, period. I might add, there was not detectable enrichment happening either.
Ron

Ron

You do not understand the ECM software according to the above statements. For starters "Skip Fire IAC" is the amount of steps to add to the idle when Skip Fire Mode is active. This is clearly covered in the online help manual, the Tuning Item Comments in the Mastertune software. You also might take a read of the "Tuning Guide" starting on page 52! EITMS is clearly covered on how and WHEN it works. The last calibration I saw of yours had the EITMS disabled in it too, so that would be a good reason why you did not see anything if it's still set that way. The final thing would be that if you have set the mixture richer already in the ECM tuning then the EITMS is set for then your only going to get the richer of those and that only goes to show just what I said before! That is that the rich mixture does not solve the problem it only slows it down by a difference of about 5 seconds in our control test.

[rbabos]

my idle is in closed loop and it has never been an issue as far as I can tell.  the bike fires up and settles in at 1000 rpm and never wavers.  I have not been in 115* temps but have been in Sturgis traffic at 100*.  I eimts enabled but not sure if it has ever kicked on.  2011 rgu with 20,000 miles.

Skip fire is a function of where the iac point is set withing the ecm constants. Depending on how iac points are determined with tune , settings etc it might never hit the ecm point. Last time I looked that point was adjustable, so most likely skip fire can be set to a given temp . Smoking hot, my iac point would not drop below 14, yet the skip was set to 12. At the time I was reading 300 on the head temp which is too damn hot, period. I might add, there was not detectable enrichment happening either.
Ron

Ron

You do not understand the ECM software according to the above statements. For starters "Skip Fire IAC" is the amount of steps to add to the idle when Skip Fire Mode is active. This is clearly covered in the online help manual, the Tuning Item Comments in the Mastertune software. You also might take a read of the "Tuning Guide" starting on page 52! EITMS is clearly covered on how and WHEN it works. The last calibration I saw of yours had the EITMS disabled in it too, so that would be a good reason why you did not see anything if it's still set that way. The final thing would be that if you have set the mixture richer already in the ECM tuning then the EITMS is set for then your only going to get the richer of those and that only goes to show just what I said before! That is that the rich mixture does not solve the problem it only slows it down by a difference of about 5 seconds in our control test.

I know how it works, trust me.  Fortunately I've never had it come on, and yes my current map has it on. Saying going open loop and using 13.8 has no benifit is like saying the first stage of etms of adding fuel to cool the engine does nothing. Might as well dump that part of the code then and just go right to skip fire. After all added fuel and skip only work at idle. One of the reasons I've never witnessed etms is due to the cooling effect of 13.8 at idle. It buys time to the eventual meltdown but by then I'm moving again.
Ron

[Steve Cole]

my idle is in closed loop and it has never been an issue as far as I can tell.  the bike fires up and settles in at 1000 rpm and never wavers.  I have not been in 115* temps but have been in Sturgis traffic at 100*.  I eimts enabled but not sure if it has ever kicked on.  2011 rgu with 20,000 miles.

Skip fire is a function of where the iac point is set withing the ecm constants. Depending on how iac points are determined with tune , settings etc it might never hit the ecm point. Last time I looked that point was adjustable, so most likely skip fire can be set to a given temp . Smoking hot, my iac point would not drop below 14, yet the skip was set to 12. At the time I was reading 300 on the head temp which is too damn hot, period. I might add, there was not detectable enrichment happening either.
Ron

Ron

You do not understand the ECM software according to the above statements. For starters "Skip Fire IAC" is the amount of steps to add to the idle when Skip Fire Mode is active. This is clearly covered in the online help manual, the Tuning Item Comments in the Mastertune software. You also might take a read of the "Tuning Guide" starting on page 52! EITMS is clearly covered on how and WHEN it works. The last calibration I saw of yours had the EITMS disabled in it too, so that would be a good reason why you did not see anything if it's still set that way. The final thing would be that if you have set the mixture richer already in the ECM tuning then the EITMS is set for then your only going to get the richer of those and that only goes to show just what I said before! That is that the rich mixture does not solve the problem it only slows it down by a difference of about 5 seconds in our control test.

I know how it works, trust me.  Fortunately I've never had it come on, and yes my current map has it on. Saying going open loop and using 13.8 has no benifit is like saying the first stage of etms of adding fuel to cool the engine does nothing. Might as well dump that part of the code then and just go right to skip fire. After all added fuel and skip only work at idle. One of the reasons I've never witnessed etms is due to the cooling effect of 13.8 at idle. It buys time to the eventual meltdown but by then I'm moving again.
Ron

So your tossing fuel at it all the time when it is not needed, doesn't make much sense to me. With the EITMS strategy in place that does what is needed, when it is needed, automatically, just seems like the right answer to me but what do I know.

[rbabos]

My point is, it's too late in the game. Better to prevent the onset time wise of 300 rather than throw fuel at it once it arrives. Personally, I like to keep my valve seats where they should be.  Time the difference with your own tools at 14.6 and 13.8. I tell you it's a hell of a lot longer wait at idle to hit 280 at 13.8. Then again I might be too retarded to be able to read the clock on the wall.
Ron

[hrdtail78]

Post the datamaster runs. I can use the clock built in. I have never timed it myself.  BUT I do warm up the bike in highest gear holding 2500 and 15%. I do this if I am targeting 13.5 or whatever the clb tables are set to. I notice no difference in time. 

[strokerjlk]

My point is, it's too late in the game. Better to prevent the onset time wise of 300 rather than throw fuel at it once it arrives. Personally, I like to keep my valve seats where they should be.  Time the difference with your own tools at 14.6 and 13.8. I tell you it's a hell of a lot longer wait at idle to hit 280 at 13.8. Then again I might be too retarded to be able to read the clock on the wall.
Ron

Basic tuning 101 Ron. Anyone that has done any tuning can see through this.
If the device you market can only collect data in closed loop then you try and convince others it's the chit.
Same ole BS but  I can't believe this one.  Even the fanboys gotta question this one 

[Steve Cole]

My point is, it's too late in the game. Better to prevent the onset time wise of 300 rather than throw fuel at it once it arrives. Personally, I like to keep my valve seats where they should be.  Time the difference with your own tools at 14.6 and 13.8. I tell you it's a hell of a lot longer wait at idle to hit 280 at 13.8. Then again I might be too retarded to be able to read the clock on the wall.
Ron

How could it be too late?  By your previous measurements and statements you stated it (rich mixture) stopped it (overheating) from happening.  So now you are admitting that it happens and the rich mixture doesn't solve it, which is just what I have said all along.  Now even when it's NOT overheating you chose to run a rich mixture when it's not needed where I chose to run a mixture that the engine is more efficient at and IF the temperature does happen to increase too much, move it richer and then go to a skip fire mode if necessary.

[rbabos]

I said it buys time at idle. Any engine will melt down eventually, even at 10-1. This can go on forever, some will agree , some won't. In the end who gives a rat's.
Ron

[strokerjlk]

I said it buys time at idle. Any engine will melt down eventually, even at 10-1. This can go on forever, some will agree , some won't. In the end who gives a rat's.
Ron

I have seen some bikes come in , that were so rich they would idle for days if you had a big enough gas tank.
It ain't notin new.

   

[HogMike]

Is this still the way it works?

EITMS is a two-stage process:

Fuel Enrichment at temperatures above 288 °F

Skip Fire at temperatures above 311 °F

EITMS mode will activate when ALL of the following occur:

EITMS option is ENABLED

The vehicle is at IDLE

The vehicle is STOPPED

The temperature is above 288 °F

[Steve Cole]

On a Big Twin engines with a TTS calibration yes that is still how it works. I know for a fact that is not how it works with HD calibrations. Other models vary due to the position of the engine temperature sensor.

Just how long will they run in stock form who knows but I can say that HD runs them at speed for about 20 minutes then brings the bike into a closed tent that is slightly bigger than the bike and allows them to sit an idle for about hour! NO FAN! Then opens the tent and runs them back out on the track at speed again! They do this in 100+ temps during testing so they are pretty damn good about taking heat without damage.

[HogMike]

On a Big Twin engines with a TTS calibration yes that is still how it works. I know for a fact that is not how it works with HD calibrations. Other models vary due to the position of the engine temperature sensor.

Just how long will they run in stock form who knows but I can say that HD runs them at speed for about 20 minutes then brings the bike into a closed tent that is slightly bigger than the bike and allows them to sit an idle for about hour! NO FAN! Then opens the tent and runs them back out on the track at speed again! They do this in 100+ temps during testing so they are pretty damn good about taking heat without damage.

I've had some bikes back and forth to Phoenix in the heat. 2007 to 2011, in various states of upgrades. Some without oil coolers, and they all ran just fine, and they continue to run fine today. Can't say the same for the rider! 
I'm not doing that trip anymore in the summer!

[07heri]

On a Big Twin engines with a TTS calibration yes that is still how it works. I know for a fact that is not how it works with HD calibrations. Other models vary due to the position of the engine temperature sensor.

Just how long will they run in stock form who knows but I can say that HD runs them at speed for about 20 minutes then brings the bike into a closed tent that is slightly bigger than the bike and allows them to sit an idle for about hour! NO FAN! Then opens the tent and runs them back out on the track at speed again! They do this in 100+ temps during testing so they are pretty damn good about taking heat without damage.

They do this how many times?  You can't be saying this is good for a motor if done over and over.  Granted I wouldn't be sitting for an hour at a time, but doing it one time isn't the same as running the temps up every day.  Just because they do it one time doesn't prove a whole bunch.  I think, just me, that they do it to sell bikes under the mandates that are being shoved down their throats.  I'm sure all of us have gotten in a situation where the engine got hotter than desirable more than once.  Did they melt down? NO.  But when you ride in it every day, all summer long, it has to have a negative impact on longevity and wear.  That's what I'm trying to avoid.   

One question I asked and seems to be avoided is this:  BEFORE the CL system came around how many tuners were setting up a bike to idle at 14.6 or whatever it is with the CLB used with CL?  That's the question I really wanted to hear an answer to.  Let's forget about skip fire for a minute, because we all know that's a HD coverup to the heat issues from running an EPA mandated engine.  I'm still hoping someone chimes in discusses AFR's they tuned at BEFORE this CL crap came about. 

Why should anyone allow the engine to get anywhere near those temps if there's a way to avoid it?

Like I said, I didn't ask this question to start a debate.  Some will ride high on the CL at idle and some won't.  I just can't see this heat being a good thing for an engine.  EPA or no EPA I just cant see it being a good thing.  During the cooler months CL isn't an issue, but during the summer it really is an issue. 

I guess my thoughts are hovering around two ideas.  1)  Did any tuners use 14.6 to tune a bike at idle BEFORE CL came around?  And 2)  If the software gives us a way to slow down the time it takes to get hot at idle, why not use it?     

I'm not questioning TTS.  I love what it allows us tinkering types to do.  All I want to know is what's best for my engine for the LONG haul.  I keep these things until the speedo's hit 6 digits, so I'm all about what's best for the long term health of the engine.

[hrdtail78]

You bring up some great questions.  I don't have the answers for all of them, and don't have the typing skill for most.  Questions are great and getting answers backed up by fact is better.

On a Big Twin engines with a TTS calibration yes that is still how it works. I know for a fact that is not how it works with HD calibrations. Other models vary due to the position of the engine temperature sensor.

Just how long will they run in stock form who knows but I can say that HD runs them at speed for about 20 minutes then brings the bike into a closed tent that is slightly bigger than the bike and allows them to sit an idle for about hour! NO FAN! Then opens the tent and runs them back out on the track at speed again! They do this in 100+ temps during testing so they are pretty damn good about taking heat without damage.

They do this how many times?  You can't be saying this is good for a motor if done over and over.  Granted I wouldn't be sitting for an hour at a time, but doing it one time isn't the same as running the temps up every day.  Just because they do it one time doesn't prove a whole bunch.  I think, just me, that they do it to sell bikes under the mandates that are being shoved down their throats.  I'm sure all of us have gotten in a situation where the engine got hotter than desirable more than once.  Did they melt down? NO.  But when you ride in it every day, all summer long, it has to have a negative impact on longevity and wear.  That's what I'm trying to avoid.   

Everytime you put miles on the bike.  You wear.  That's why a bike with 3800 miles is better to buy than a bike with 120,000 miles in it.  Is heat an enemy?  You betch ya.  Friction=heat= loss of HP.

One question I asked and seems to be avoided is this:  BEFORE the CL system came around how many tuners were setting up a bike to idle at 14.6 or whatever it is with the CLB used with CL?  That's the question I really wanted to hear an answer to.  Let's forget about skip fire for a minute, because we all know that's a HD coverup to the heat issues from running an EPA mandated engine.  I'm still hoping someone chimes in discusses AFR's they tuned at BEFORE this CL crap came about. 

Before CL, more attention was paid to a safety margin.  Set for 14.2 and hope you don't get a bad batch of fuel.  Fuel is changing more time than not these days.  Not saying the EPA is good or bad.  End result.  They made Harley catch up with the time.

Why should anyone allow the engine to get anywhere near those temps if there's a way to avoid it?

This one I really can't answer.  I don't leave my bike idling for long periods at a time.  Double D cycles built me a bad ass 78 stroked out hardtail when I was 19 and working there.  Darrel told me.  Don't lug it, and it's not built for parade duty.  Today still, I like HP, make my rev limiter work daily, and believe anything under 2500 is lugging.  Even slow parking lots.  Higher revs and slipping clutches are for better control.  The more you get away from a stock engine.  The more you have to consider and take responsibility for the engine.

Like I said, I didn't ask this question to start a debate.  Some will ride high on the CL at idle and some won't.  I just can't see this heat being a good thing for an engine.  EPA or no EPA I just cant see it being a good thing.  During the cooler months CL isn't an issue, but during the summer it really is an issue. 

Looking at things like latent heat might be an eye opener.  We should also ask.  Is EITMS first function of adding fuel meant to cool it, or is trying to prevent detonation or preignition?  Which raises temp greatly.

I guess my thoughts are hovering around two ideas.  1)  Did any tuners use 14.6 to tune a bike at idle BEFORE CL came around?  And 2)  If the software gives us a way to slow down the time it takes to get hot at idle, why not use it?     

I'm not questioning TTS.  I love what it allows us tinkering types to do.  All I want to know is what's best for my engine for the LONG haul.  I keep these things until the speedo's hit 6 digits, so I'm all about what's best for the long term health of the engine.

I know I'm not a lot of help, but hopefully give some things to look at, and to consider.

[rbabos]

I believe it states adds fuel in attempt to cool it. Boy, if you have detonation at idle there's some serious problems there. Most likely the iat has pulled some timing by then anyway . I've not varified this but it's a pretty standard iat function. You and I have aircraft experience, right? You also know the reason for full rich on climb out. An engine is an engine, don't matter. In this case to keep the engine as cool as possible and avoid detonation.
Ron

[Steve Cole]

On a Big Twin engines with a TTS calibration yes that is still how it works. I know for a fact that is not how it works with HD calibrations. Other models vary due to the position of the engine temperature sensor.

Just how long will they run in stock form who knows but I can say that HD runs them at speed for about 20 minutes then brings the bike into a closed tent that is slightly bigger than the bike and allows them to sit an idle for about hour! NO FAN! Then opens the tent and runs them back out on the track at speed again! They do this in 100+ temps during testing so they are pretty damn good about taking heat without damage.

They do this how many times?  You can't be saying this is good for a motor if done over and over.  Granted I wouldn't be sitting for an hour at a time, but doing it one time isn't the same as running the temps up every day.  Just because they do it one time doesn't prove a whole bunch.  I think, just me, that they do it to sell bikes under the mandates that are being shoved down their throats.  I'm sure all of us have gotten in a situation where the engine got hotter than desirable more than once.  Did they melt down? NO.  But when you ride in it every day, all summer long, it has to have a negative impact on longevity and wear.  That's what I'm trying to avoid.   

What temperature does damage is the key and running at 300 F is not doing damage to an air cooled engine. Would cooler be better, sure it would but to worry about something you have little to no control over and then to turn off features that would help just seems kind of backwards to me. How many cycles HD runs the test I do not know for sure but I can tell you that it is at least 4 cycles that I saw in a row. When I first saw it being done I asked what in the hell are you guys doing it's going to melt! They smiled and said no it's not.


One question I asked and seems to be avoided is this:  BEFORE the CL system came around how many tuners were setting up a bike to idle at 14.6 or whatever it is with the CLB used with CL?  That's the question I really wanted to hear an answer to.  Let's forget about skip fire for a minute, because we all know that's a HD coverup to the heat issues from running an EPA mandated engine.  I'm still hoping someone chimes in discusses AFR's they tuned at BEFORE this CL crap came about. 

With Carb'ed engines the fuel mixture would wander around 2 AFR so you had to set it far enough to the rich side to make sure it would be OK when it went to the lean side all by itself. When HD came out with the MM unit it was nothing more than an electric carb so again bikes were set to the rich side for safety unit the EPA stuff made them start to come closer to Stoich. Then they moved to Delphi which gave better fuel and spark control and that helpped them meet the EPA stuff for awhile. Then fuel got much worse so O2's were added in 2006 on some bikes and all of them for 2007. This allowed a way to keep an eye on what was really happening and adjust as it's been ridden so now we can run closer to Stoich and that improves Power and mileage.

Why should anyone allow the engine to get anywhere near those temps if there's a way to avoid it?

Like I said, I didn't ask this question to start a debate.  Some will ride high on the CL at idle and some won't.  I just can't see this heat being a good thing for an engine.  EPA or no EPA I just cant see it being a good thing.  During the cooler months CL isn't an issue, but during the summer it really is an issue. 

Not if your using the TTS version of EITMS control

I guess my thoughts are hovering around two ideas.  1)  Did any tuners use 14.6 to tune a bike at idle BEFORE CL came around?  And 2)  If the software gives us a way to slow down the time it takes to get hot at idle, why not use it?     

I'm not questioning TTS.  I love what it allows us tinkering types to do.  All I want to know is what's best for my engine for the LONG haul.  I keep these things until the speedo's hit 6 digits, so I'm all about what's best for the long term health of the engine.

For the long haul the best thing you can do is to run the engine with as little extra fuel as you can. Extra or RICH fuel mixtures leave more behind that contaminate the cylinders, heads, pistons and Oil. Wears the cylinders, pistons and rings as well. So you have to strike a balance of ALL the things involved NOT just look at one thing for the entire answer, as the best thing for the engine is the proper balance of all things involved.

[hrdtail78]

I believe it states adds fuel in attempt to cool it.

Not arguing that it says that, but I can't believe that throwing fuel at roll on helps with cooling.  Heat soaked parts cant change in temp that fast.  Goes back to why I mentioned latent heat.  Yes, there is more than one type of heat.
100% correct.  I shouldn't of said detonation.  Should of said preignition.  Let a carb bike idle for a bit.  It will over run when ignition is killed.

Most likely the iat has pulled some timing by then anyway . I've not varified this but it's a pretty standard iat function.

...and then we can talk about the spark temp correction table.

You and I have aircraft experience, right? You also know the reason for full rich on climb out.

Yes, 100% again.  We set the control to full rich, but we set control stops on the control.  Carb heat is also turned on, dual mags, dual plugged/ dual electrodes, cell phone off.....are we getting best power yet?

An engine is an engine, don't matter.

I disagree.  My vtwin is not a cart car engine.

In this case to keep the engine as cool as possible and avoid detonation.
Ron

Why are you afraid of detonation at idle?  "Boy, if you have detonation at idle there's some serious problems there.

[Onthefence]

This discussion started about setting idle to 13.8:1 in hopes that it will somehow help with engine temp.  Then turned into how long a bike can idle without blowing up.  If a bike idles for 5 hours without seizing, what have we learned beyond the fact that it didn't seize.

The answer to the original question can only be known with measurements.  My experience with .981 lambda in the cruise range and the eq lambda for 13.8 at idle is this.

100 degree weather. Engine fully heated and beating down the road. 266 degree et.  At quick roll through stop will put it at or near 275.  5 minutes down the road and I'm back to 266.

This is right in line with what I get when it's .981 in idle. 

With measurements of ET using the data provided from the ET sensor shows that this does nothing.

For those running richer closed loop throughout cruise and idle what ETs do you see in 100 degree weather?

My testing may have a flaw though.  According to the Internet 100 degrees in Texas is different than here in Illinois

[HogMike]

This discussion started about setting idle to 13.8:1 in hopes that it will somehow help with engine temp.  Then turned into how long a bike can idle without blowing up.  If a bike idles for 5 hours without seizing, what have we learned beyond the fact that it didn't seize.

The answer to the original question can only be known with measurements.  My experience with .981 lambda in the cruise range and the eq lambda for 13.8 at idle is this.

100 degree weather. Engine fully heated and beating down the road. 266 degree et.  At quick roll through stop will put it at or near 275.  5 minutes down the road and I'm back to 266.

This is right in line with what I get when it's .981 in idle. 

With measurements of ET using the data provided from the ET sensor shows that this does nothing.

For those running richer closed loop throughout cruise and idle what ETs do you see in 100 degree weather?

My testing may have a flaw though.  According to the Internet 100 degrees in Texas is different than here in Illinois

As you may know, the cooling effect is different due to the humidity differences between, say, there and the desert!
I know this to be true. I read it on the internet!

[rbabos]

I believe it states adds fuel in attempt to cool it.

Not arguing that it says that, but I can't believe that throwing fuel at roll on helps with cooling.  Heat soaked parts cant change in temp that fast.  Goes back to why I mentioned latent heat.  Yes, there is more than one type of heat.
100% correct.  I shouldn't of said detonation.  Should of said preignition.  Let a carb bike idle for a bit.  It will over run when ignition is killed.

Most likely the iat has pulled some timing by then anyway . I've not varified this but it's a pretty standard iat function.

...and then we can talk about the spark temp correction table.

You and I have aircraft experience, right? You also know the reason for full rich on climb out.

Yes, 100% again.  We set the control to full rich, but we set control stops on the control.  Carb heat is also turned on, dual mags, dual plugged/ dual electrodes, cell phone off.....are we getting best power yet?

An engine is an engine, don't matter.

I disagree.  My vtwin is not a cart car engine.

In this case to keep the engine as cool as possible and avoid detonation.
Ron

Why are you afraid of detonation at idle?  "Boy, if you have detonation at idle there's some serious problems there.

Personally I go with carb heat off. I want that extra 150 rpm on takeoff. I'm sure it was a  on your part.
My detonation was referring to keeping the engine cool through climb out, so you misquoted me there on the idle thing.
10-4 on the overrun. That's why they run fuel cut offs to shut the engine down rather than a simple mag switch. Fuel cut offs were incorperated into autos in the 70s and now with efi the problem is gone once and for all. Earlier muscle cars, the only solution was the highest octane possible to prevent the destructive run on. Some of us lived that nighmare.
Let's go back to the cumbustion chamber latent heat for a minute and base this on a high compression engine rather than the stock engine.  Say you have 300 engine temp at idle. Actual temp will be higher inside the engine. I can bet if the efi didn't shut the fuel off these HD engines will overrun. Question is how do you know it's not detonating just prior the spark at these temps at idle. Has anyone actually checked for spark knock at idle with 300 engine temp?
As for the timing temp table. The ones I've looked at are set at higher kpa. I suppose one could do the whole table if one wanted to but I doubt anyone does.
I've seen the lean side with my 07 96" and it's not a pretty sight. It was an oil burner by 20k. Had the 110s of the same year had decent mixture there wouldn't have been near the cyl problems with them. Many that ditched the epa tune had very little issues with them once they cooled them off. Is richer better for engine life, hell no, but it's the lesser of two evils. With liquid cooled, then you can get the best of both worlds. Leaner and cleaner without serious risk to engine.
Ron

[hrdtail78]

...

[hrdtail78]

I believe it states adds fuel in attempt to cool it.

Not arguing that it says that, but I can't believe that throwing fuel at roll on helps with cooling.  Heat soaked parts cant change in temp that fast.  Goes back to why I mentioned latent heat.  Yes, there is more than one type of heat.
100% correct.  I shouldn't of said detonation.  Should of said preignition.  Let a carb bike idle for a bit.  It will over run when ignition is killed.

Most likely the iat has pulled some timing by then anyway . I've not varified this but it's a pretty standard iat function.

...and then we can talk about the spark temp correction table.

You and I have aircraft experience, right? You also know the reason for full rich on climb out.

Yes, 100% again.  We set the control to full rich, but we set control stops on the control.  Carb heat is also turned on, dual mags, dual plugged/ dual electrodes, cell phone off.....are we getting best power yet?

An engine is an engine, don't matter.

I disagree.  My vtwin is not a cart car engine.

In this case to keep the engine as cool as possible and avoid detonation.
Ron

Why are you afraid of detonation at idle?  "Boy, if you have detonation at idle there's some serious problems there.

Personally I go with carb heat off. I want that extra 150 rpm on takeoff. I'm sure it was a  on your part.

Yeah, it's been awhile, and the stuff I worked on most didn't need a continuos ignition system.  Plus there was a whole new control for take off.  Point being that with blade cuff, cowl flaps, and the big fan on the front. (or back) I don't think full rich is for cooling affect.  My bet would be for safty more than anything else.  That's why it is not a good comparison.

My detonation was referring to keeping the engine cool through climb out, so you misquoted me there on the idle thing.

Maybe my cut and paste is screwed up.
10-4 on the overrun. That's why they run fuel cut offs to shut the engine down rather than a simple mag switch. Fuel cut offs were incorperated into autos in the 70s and now with efi the problem is gone once and for all. Earlier muscle cars, the only solution was the highest octane possible to prevent the destructive run on. Some of us lived that nighmare.
Let's go back to the cumbustion chamber latent heat for a minute and base this on a high compression engine rather than the stock engine.  Say you have 300 engine temp at idle.

So how much cooling affect does the fuel have when going from 14.5 to say 13.8?  That is a movement of .7, plus we are in a emulsivide state.  A gas is the worst type of material to try and convect heat with.  We really aren't cooling things down.  We are soaking up the heat with the fuel.  Which has a byproduct of cooling. Looking at specific heat, and latent heat.  We can see that it can only suck up so much heat.

Actual temp will be higher inside the engine. I can bet if the efi didn't shut the fuel off these HD engines will overrun. Question is how do you know it's not detonating just prior the spark at these temps at idle. Has anyone actually checked for spark knock at idle with 300 engine temp?
As for the timing temp table. The ones I've looked at are set at higher kpa. I suppose one could do the whole table if one wanted to but I doubt anyone does.

If we look at the TTS 120R cal.  In stock form I see timing pulled from 50 kpa up to 100kpa.  In the spark temp correction table.

I've seen the lean side with my 07 96" and it's not a pretty sight. It was an oil burner by 20k. Had the 110s of the same year had decent mixture there wouldn't have been near the cyl problems with them. Many that ditched the epa tune had very little issues with them once they cooled them off. Is richer better for engine life, hell no, but it's the lesser of two evils. With liquid cooled, then you can get the best of both worlds. Leaner and cleaner without serious risk to engine.
Ron

[johncr]

If we look at the TTS 120R cal.  In stock form I see timing pulled from 50 kpa up to 100kpa.  In the spark temp correction table.

TTS 120R Cal? Is this available, I ran the updater and do not see it?

[rbabos]

If we look at the TTS 120R cal.  In stock form I see timing pulled from 50 kpa up to 100kpa.  In the spark temp correction table.

TTS 120R Cal? Is this available, I ran the updater and do not see it?

That's because it's NFG.
Ron

[Coyote]

If we look at the TTS 120R cal.  In stock form I see timing pulled from 50 kpa up to 100kpa.  In the spark temp correction table.

TTS 120R Cal? Is this available, I ran the updater and do not see it?

That's because it's NFG.
Ron

OK, I'll just guess which one you meant. 

NFG	No Freaking Good (polite form)
NFG	New Found Glory (band)
NFG	Neighborhood Funders Group
NFG	Nefteyugansk (Russia)
NFG	National Fuel Gas Distribution Corporation
NfG	Note for Guidance (European Medicines Agency)
NFG	Nar-Anon (Narcotics Anonymous) Family Group
NFG	Non-Functional Gear
NFG	Not Functioning Good
NFG	National Golf Foundation
NFG	Not for Girls (hair care line)
NFG	Non Fighting Group (gaming)
NFG	No Filament or Grid (vacuum tube)
NFG	No Finish Grind (metal finishing)
NFG	Non-Food Grade
NFG	Next Flight Going (Air Freight)
NFG	Not Fully Guaranteed
NFG	New Freaking Guy
NFG	Not First Grade
NFG	No Future Generation
NFG	NeurofunkGrid
NFG	Net Facilities Group (Netherlands)