SE compensator -verses- 2010 stock compensater

[gabbyduffy]

                It seems both designs have flaws......Which one lasts longer and will make less racket?.....

[sandrooney]

I put an SE in my 10 Street Glide and it lasted about 2,000 miles . I am just going to replace the stock comp every 20 to 25 thousand miles. Cost less than tires and only little over an hour to install .
SR

[Lowcountry Joe]

Gab,
You'll get different views on this but here is mine.  I ordered a SE compensator for my 2010 Ultra and changed it myself in the garage.  No problems.  That was about 7,000 miles ago and no issues.  I changed mine after I saw pictures of the crap stock compensator compared to the SE version.  Another area of concern for me was the starter clutch.  I read about several instances related to failed starter clutches due to the lack of spring action in the stock compensator in combination with the higher compression 103" engine.  Mine has auto compression releases, but it was still a little laborious when starting.  With the SE installed, that sound went away.  So the bike starts quicker and I have peace of mind that I have done all I can to protect the starter clutch.

I believe some issues, especially main bolt coming loose issues, are due to improper installations.  Lots of installers will use the gear locking bar to hold everything in place to achieve the 140 ft lbs of torque required.  That's a mistake because the springs in the compensator will start absorbing that torque and the bolt ends up not getting torqued properly and works out.  To torque it properly, I bought a big ass crescent wrench and that wrench held the assembly solid while I applied the 140 lbs of torque.  I used red locktite on the bolt as well and allowed the loctite to cure over night and the next day before operating the bike.

If I had another 2010 with the weak compensator, I would change it out in a heartbeat to the SE version.  Too many positive attributes with the SE model to ignore.  The 2011 bikes were the first year that the SE compensator came as standard.  So it's obvious that Harley knew that the weaker compensators were creating problems.

[Richard K]

 
Have a look and read completely the threads I started back in December of 2011
"SE Compensator by Richard K"
There is a ton of good and solid information on this issue complied from input from many, many folks and lots of experience. The SE Comp is the best way to go and there is no doubt on that. The SE Comp was rushed to production due to the mass failures of the stock comp so it has issues. The SE failures are a direct result of NO OIL getting to the Comp. We have solved that issue and are moving to see it in production and available to who is interested. That will take some time however.

Read all you can on the subject and just be prepared to replace the comp every 5 to 25K miles depending on the model, riding habits and lubrications used.

I have found that keeping the shinny side up works the best!!!!!!

[Barrett]

My stock one is still fine with about 25,000 miles..

[FLTR2008Trike]

Have a look and read completely the threads I started back in December of 2011
"SE Compensator by Richard K"
There is a ton of good and solid information on this issue complied from input from many, many folks and lots of experience. The SE Comp is the best way to go and there is no doubt on that. The SE Comp was rushed to production due to the mass failures of the stock comp so it has issues. The SE failures are a direct result of NO OIL getting to the Comp. We have solved that issue and are moving to see it in production and available to who is interested. That will take some time however.

Read all you can on the subject and just be prepared to replace the comp every 5 to 25K miles depending on the model, riding habits and lubrications used.

I have found that keeping the shinny side up works the best!!!!!!

Any idea when you will be ready to get more out? I ride a trike as well and would like to get your modifications done to my SE Comp and install your oil feed tray.

Tom

[Admiral Akbar]

That's a mistake because the springs in the compensator will start absorbing that torque and the bolt ends up not getting torqued properly and works out.

Give me a break..    Torque is the same.. BTW you can go to 165 if you want..

Another area of concern for me was the starter clutch.  I read about several instances related to failed starter clutches due to the lack of spring action in the stock compensator in combination with the higher compression 103" engine.

Low battery and 103 with 255 killed my riding buddies starter clutch. He needs a comp.. but he'll run it til it breaks before fixing it..

I just replaced mine with a low mileage stock take off (thanks Gary).. 31K on the original and it was knocking a bit.. Crank splines still straight tho.. Take off is much quieter.. Also changing the cam to one that don't hit so hard down low probably helped..

I suspect that those that fall into the gotta have low end torque on a bagger are shooting themselves in the foot..

Max

[wurk_truk]

That's a mistake because the springs in the compensator will start absorbing that torque and the bolt ends up not getting torqued properly and works out.

Give me a break..    Torque is the same.. BTW you can go to 165 if you want..

Max, that just proves you have never even seen a SE comp, nor worked with one.  The comp WILL start to 'compensate' unless you hold the big nut on the end to keep the comp in place.  After about 110-120 ft lbs, if using a locking bar, you start reading the spring pack pressure instead of torque on the bolt because the cam plate starts to twist.

Nobody should ever use a locking bar to torque down an SE comp.  So says I, AND... the directions from MOCO.

[VDeuce]

That's a mistake because the springs in the compensator will start absorbing that torque and the bolt ends up not getting torqued properly and works out.

Give me a break..    Torque is the same.. BTW you can go to 165 if you want..

Max, that just proves you have never even seen a SE comp, nor worked with one.  The comp WILL start to 'compensate' unless you hold the big nut on the end to keep the comp in place.  After about 110-120 ft lbs, if using a locking bar, you start reading the spring pack pressure instead of torque on the bolt because the cam plate starts to twist.

Nobody should ever use a locking bar to torque down an SE comp.  So says I, AND... the directions from MOCO.

I just installed one last night and used a big-ass adjustable wrench, 18" long with the end sitting on the floor and made for an easy torque to 140. Yep, not supposed to use the locking bar approach.

[Admiral Akbar]

So you guys are saying that the SE comp can't handle 140 fp tq? Does the sprocket bend?   I guess we know what it's limitations are.. 

Max

[Admiral Akbar]

Max, that just proves you have never even seen a SE comp, nor worked with one.  The comp WILL start to 'compensate' unless you hold the big nut on the end to keep the comp in place.  After about 110-120 ft lbs, if using a locking bar, you start reading the spring pack pressure instead of torque on the bolt because the cam plate starts to twist.

Nobody should ever use a locking bar to torque down an SE comp.  So says I, AND... the directions from MOCO.

It obvious that I don't know jack about SE comps.. So educate me.. The latest instructions in the section here say to use a locking bar..

J05457  -> 94102-09

http://www.latus-harley-davidson.com/Screamin-Eagle-Primary-Drive-Locking-Tool.htm

Always willing to learn.. (the right stuff. not the old wive's tail stuff  )

Max

[1FSTRK]

Max, that just proves you have never even seen a SE comp, nor worked with one.  The comp WILL start to 'compensate' unless you hold the big nut on the end to keep the comp in place.  After about 110-120 ft lbs, if using a locking bar, you start reading the spring pack pressure instead of torque on the bolt because the cam plate starts to twist.

Nobody should ever use a locking bar to torque down an SE comp.  So says I, AND... the directions from MOCO.

It obvious that I don't know jack about SE comps.. So educate me.. The latest instructions in the section here say to use a locking bar..

J05457  -> 94102-09

http://www.latus-harley-davidson.com/Screamin-Eagle-Primary-Drive-Locking-Tool.htm

Always willing to learn.. (the right stuff. not the old wive's tail stuff  )

Max

Max you may want to read the sheet you referred to. The locking bar is used to remove the stock comp. A 1 3/4 box wrench is used to install the SE comp.

[Barrett]

Max, that just proves you have never even seen a SE comp, nor worked with one.  The comp WILL start to 'compensate' unless you hold the big nut on the end to keep the comp in place.  After about 110-120 ft lbs, if using a locking bar, you start reading the spring pack pressure instead of torque on the bolt because the cam plate starts to twist.

Nobody should ever use a locking bar to torque down an SE comp.  So says I, AND... the directions from MOCO.

It obvious that I don't know jack about SE comps.. So educate me.. The latest instructions in the section here say to use a locking bar..

J05457  -> 94102-09

http://www.latus-harley-davidson.com/Screamin-Eagle-Primary-Drive-Locking-Tool.htm

Always willing to learn.. (the right stuff. not the old wive's tail stuff  )

Max

Max you may want to read the sheet you referred to. The locking bar is used to remove the stock comp. A 1 3/4 box wrench is used to install the SE comp.

Description:


This tool is designed to keep the primary drive system from rotating during the installation and removal of the compensator sprocket nut or the clutch hub nut. The tool is easily inserted into the primary drive system and wedges in place to restrict movement without damaging the sprocket teeth.

For use on '07-later Touring models.

[Templar2]

I read it and I will post this:

This tool is designed to keep the primary drive system from rotating during the installation and removal of the compensator sprocket nut or the clutch hub nut. The tool is easily inserted into the primary drive system and wedges in place to restrict movement without damaging the sprocket teeth.


It clearly says during "installation and removal".  I would take that to mean it can used for both.

[Admiral Akbar]

Well learning to read would help.  . Anyway my point is that it don't make any difference in the torque.. Or maybe it does? Not from the point of view that the comp is messing with the TQ but from the point that the torquing the comp with a jam bar puts additional tension on the bolt which may change the final tq value.. Still the stock comps up until the 08 SE still use a jam bar.. What 1963 up?   

Max

[FLTR2008Trike]

This is copied from my instruction for installation the SE Compensator

6. Install the new screw (11) by hand, and snug against the
sprocket retainer. Using a 1-3/4 inch box-end wrench to
hold the crankshaft, tighten the screw to 100 ft-lbs (135.7
Nm).
7. Loosen the screw by one full turn (360 degrees), then
tighten to 140 ft-lbs (190.0 Nm).

[Ohio HD]

This is copied from my instruction for installation the SE Compensator

6. Install the new screw (11) by hand, and snug against the
sprocket retainer. Using a 1-3/4 inch box-end wrench to
hold the crankshaft, tighten the screw to 100 ft-lbs (135.7
Nm).
7. Loosen the screw by one full turn (360 degrees), then
tighten to 140 ft-lbs (190.0 Nm).

Now I'm curious! I assume the initial torque of 100 ft. lb. is to seat the unit, back off the screw, then final tightening to 140 ft. lb.  But I wonder why the explicit instructions to back off the screw one full turn, then torque to 140 ft. lb. ?

Maybe they just want to insure that you back it off enough to release pressure on the compensator? 

[Jeffd]

This is copied from my instruction for installation the SE Compensator

6. Install the new screw (11) by hand, and snug against the
sprocket retainer. Using a 1-3/4 inch box-end wrench to
hold the crankshaft, tighten the screw to 100 ft-lbs (135.7
Nm).
7. Loosen the screw by one full turn (360 degrees), then
tighten to 140 ft-lbs (190.0 Nm).

Now I'm curious! I assume the initial torque of 100 ft. lb. is to seat the unit, back off the screw, then final tightening to 140 ft. lb.  But I wonder why the explicit instructions to back off the screw one full turn, then torque to 140 ft. lb. ?

Maybe they just want to insure that you back it off enough to release pressure on the compensator? 

Not sure in this case but sometimes it is due to the thread locker

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

[Coyote]

I used the locking bar when I tightened mine. That's a damn big wrench and I don't have it.  I'll let you know if it comes loose. 

[rbabos]

Don't matter chit if the locking bar used or not. End result is the same. Torque is the same on the bolt. The initial 100lbs back off and then 140 is to smooth any burrs off on the bolt contact faces and threads. I would not push this 9/16 bolt to 160, that's for sure.
Ron

[1FSTRK]

I read it and I will post this:

This tool is designed to keep the primary drive system from rotating during the installation and removal of the compensator sprocket nut or the clutch hub nut. The tool is easily inserted into the primary drive system and wedges in place to restrict movement without damaging the sprocket teeth.


It clearly says during "installation and removal".  I would take that to mean it can used for both.

Read the instructions for the SE comp not the description for the tool that is used on the stock comp or service manual. Could be why new parts come with their own instructions.

[Barrett]

I used the locking bar when I tightened mine. That's a damn big wrench and I don't have it.  I'll let you know if it comes loose. 

I have a 1" drive 1,000ft lb torque wrench that's so big I can't sell it. I'll make ya a good deal on it.. It's NIB too..

[TweekmyTwin]

Hey... give it a few more months and someone will have a special tool just for that instead of a  a 2 foot long 1-3/4" open end combo wrench

[FLTR2008Trike]

You can get a 1 3/4" wrench on Amazon for $20.99 plus shipping. That how I purchased mine

[gabbyduffy]

               Harbor freight has a large wrench set with the 1-3/4 " wrench with it. I think I paid 60 bucks for the whole set.  (the stock comp uses the bar and the se uses the big wrench).

[PoorUB]

I am with Max, if the crank ain't turning where does the extra torque go when using and locking bar?

[Coyote]

I am with Max, if the crank ain't turning where does the extra torque go when using and locking bar?

I'm not too worried. 

[wurk_truk]

I am with Max, if the crank ain't turning where does the extra torque go when using and locking bar?

Here is the deal.  This is NOT like a stock type comp, one that goes to full lock when torquing it down.  An SE comp does NOT go to full lock ever.  It rides the spring pak.  On an SE comp, if you use a locking bar, at about 110 ft lbs, the crank DOES move and the sprocket, with the locking bar does not.  Whats happening is the sprocket stays at the bottom of the cams, until sufficient force is applied and then the crank DOES starts to move  instead of tightening the bolt.  When the crank moves while a locking bar is in place, all one is doing is moving the cams into the locked sprocket (compressing the spring pak)... thus the torque wrench loses its way as it is reading you pulling the crank in a circle against the spring pak instead of actually spinning the bolt.  Holding the large hex insures the crank does NOT move and the torque wrench reads the force applied to the bolt itself.

This is the 'why' for the large hex head on the outer cap...  to hold the crankshaft in place while torque is applied.

Something else... The Ron Richard oiler really DOES work.  My chain is toast and stretched in a weird fashion, but I ran it for like 50 miles, then parked the bike for well over a month.  When I finally tore it all back apart and measured every which way with a dial indicator...  ALL of the internal shafts, bores, etc were nice and oiled.

When I get my new chain and assemble the unit, I will take a video of tightening with and without a locking bar.   Can I post vids directly here, or do I need a UTube link?

I, actually, WOULD be worried, because that bolt is NOT torqued to even close to the required 140 ft lbs if a locking bar was used.... maybe less than 100 ft lbs.  I would check it out Keith.  I use a 24" crescent wrench from Harbor Freight.  A couple years ago we bought like five of these for all of the truck to use on tightening light pole bases.  I think they were like $50-60.

[Admiral Akbar]

Truk,, You need to study Sir Issac..

Max

[wurk_truk]

Nope, Max, you are missing the point that the spring pak is so robust on the SE comp, that the comp NEVER bottoms out to truly lock up the comp for a locking bar to be used.  If you spin a bolt that is inder such spring pressure that the crank DOES move WITH THE TORQUE WRENCH, how is the bolt being tightened?  All one is doing is compressing the springs, NOT tightening the bolt, because the bolt no longer is spinning in relation to the crankshaft, it is spinning WITH the crank shaft.

Think about it...  YOU tell me... if the instructions say it (use a wrench, AND the comp comes with a hex head to lock it down with a wrench?)  Why else is the hex head there?  NO other comp has that hex head.

Do what ya all wish... If you can't grasp that the crank DOES move...  I give up.  Just trying to help and educate my fellow members to the PROPER way to deal with a SE comp.  And... even Mr "FIXIT' Rbabos has it wrong.

[Admiral Akbar]

Ok

Lets do the linear analogy to torque.. Maybe that will help.. Picture a spring.. For the sake if simplicity this spring is massless ie it has no weight..  If you put 100 lbs pressure on one side of this spring, how much pressure is on the other side? Does it make any difference if the spring is coil bound? No.. Once equilibrium is met and the pressure on one side of the spring equals the other.. Same applies to torque.. Issac was a smart guy..

If you can't grasp that the crank DOES move...

Once equilibrium is reached forces are equal.. It don't make any difference whether the crank moves or not..

Max

[1FSTRK]

Wurk it would be a simple test. Hold the sprocket with the locking bar and torque the bolt, mark the bolt head and comp with a marker, then remove the lock bar and hold the comp with the wrench and recheck the torque. If the the the bolt moves the marks will tell the tail.

[Coyote]

Once equilibrium is reached forces are equal.. It don't make any difference whether the crank moves or not..

Max

TQ is TQ. Doesn't matter what is pushing back. I guess I could see you might be off if the spring  moved right when you snapped the TQ wrench but with smooth application, that's not the case. For me, the spring moved some, then stopped well before I hit the TQ spec.

[wurk_truk]

    I bow down to my new masters.  Got me good!

[rbabos]

In case anyone wonders, the comp is bottomed out when torquing with a locking bar way before 140lbs. The wrench method less barbaric when viewing the operation but results are the same.
Mr. FIXIT.

[oldguy]

I just installed a new se comp-used the locking bar when tightening to final torque. Then I remembered I should have used the 1 3/4" nut to stabilize when torquing, so I rechecked using an 1 3/4" wrench. It didn't move at all. Torque on the 9/16" bolt was 140.

[sandrooney]

I guess that answers it.

[harleypr]

I learned something from this exchange. I am new to this group and it's nice to see the back and forth with out everyone getting all po'd. If I have a problem in the future you guys have helped me with a solution.

[black]

This  is a good site for info.  Guys that know, and guys that think they know! my money is on  Max,Coyote, Rbabos 

[Admiral Akbar]

I am new to this group and it's nice to see the back and forth with out everyone getting all po'd.

Well I wouldn't be surprised if I pissed someone off lateley.. Not necessarily this thread.. 

Max

[dynablack07]

Walmart has a 1 3/4 wrench in the trailer acc section, cheap.. use the right tool for the job..

[flh canuck]

So my 08 Electra-Glide with 103" Stage 2 kit installed and the much maligned SE255 cams is making around 108 ft lbs and 98 horsepower (SEPRT with professional dyno tune, HD oil cooler (including the *gasp* totally not required thermostat).

What can I say, its a bagger and I like to twist the throttle and go....

So far I have 15,000 kms on this build with 49,000 kms total on the engine with stock compensator. I also have manual compression releases which makes starting a relatively painless, kick-back free event. 

My point is, I am still running the bone stock primary set-up including stock clutch and compensator which continues to provide quiet, reliable service. Maybe I just got lucky? When should I change out the compensator for one of these "new and improved" SE units that apparently only last a few thousand miles?

Seems to me that lots of people are spending a lot of time and money on something that is less reliable that the original factory compensator. Is it just me?....

[TweekmyTwin]

So my 08 Electra-Glide with 103" Stage 2 kit installed and the much maligned SE255 cams is making around 108 ft lbs and 98 horsepower (SEPRT with professional dyno tune, HD oil cooler (including the *gasp* totally not required thermostat).

What can I say, its a bagger and I like to twist the throttle and go....

So far I have 15,000 kms on this build with 49,000 kms total on the engine with stock compensator. I also have manual compression releases which makes starting a relatively painless, kick-back free event. 

My point is, I am still running the bone stock primary set-up including stock clutch and compensator which continues to provide quiet, reliable service. Maybe I just got lucky? When should I change out the compensator for one of these "new and improved" SE units that apparently only last a few thousand miles?

Seems to me that lots of people are spending a lot of time and money on something that is less reliable that the original factory compensator. Is it just me?....

Your primary is totally different... thats why you have no problems

[rbabos]

I think the primary and comp is the same, myself. Pre 07s are different. I was going with you are one of the lucky ones.
If all is well, don't go looking for trouble.
Ron

[TweekmyTwin]

07-09 10 has the comp welded to the 50amp rotor... not saying it's better but less problems.

[Coyote]

I think the primary and comp is the same, myself. Pre 07s are different. I was going with you are one of the lucky ones.
If all is well, don't go looking for trouble.
Ron

Not at all like my 2011. The 08 comp is not the same. I gave up arguing with Jim a long time ago although he would disagree. 



[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[TweekmyTwin]

ah ha.. I guess right this time.. 

[flh canuck]

Not at all like my 2011. The 08 comp is not the same. I gave up arguing with Jim a long time ago although he would disagree. 

Thanks for the clarification guys. I was not aware that Harley had made changes to newer model compensators (improvements?) and wrongly assumed that all late model stock compensators were the same..

[gabbyduffy]

07-09 10 has the comp welded to the 50amp rotor... not saying it's better but less problems.

My 2010 comp in not welded to the rotor.......

[PoorUB]

Once equilibrium is reached forces are equal.. It don't make any difference whether the crank moves or not..

Max

TQ is TQ. Doesn't matter what is pushing back. I guess I could see you might be off if the spring  moved right when you snapped the TQ wrench but with smooth application, that's not the case. For me, the spring moved some, then stopped well before I hit the TQ spec.

Same here, the comp spring was moving, but stopped long before I I reached final torque.

[Richard K]

 
A while back I had an opportunity to visit with a mechanical engineer on the torque thing. After much explanation using words and phrases to be honest with you I didn't understand much of, it came down to this;
The factory gives you instructions and casts a big assed nut on the thing telling you to use it when torquing the bolt, then you damn will better use the nut. They have tried it 10 ways to heaven and have determine the best and most reliable way to torque the bolt. Or you can do it your way and pay for the same failures the factory boys have already paid for for you.
Your choice!!

I have tried torquing it with the bar and with the wrench and re-torquing it after the bar to see if it has any more give. Like has been stated I too don't see the difference. However the factory is seeing something so I follow what they say and I have never had anything come off. I do run a tap down the hole to clean the crap out of it then flush it with acetone each time before locktight and torquing.

I grew up hearing "Do it right, do it once". However the MoCo is making that really really difficult. Like Hank Hill from King of the Hill says "a Harley, all the maintenance a guy can want"

[Admiral Akbar]

Like Hank Hill from King of the Hill says "a Harley, all the maintenance a guy can want"

Where does that put the guys that owned the old Nortons and Triumphs??

Max

[Ohio HD]

They're with Lucas, the Prince of Darkness!  ;-)








Brian

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TweekmyTwin]

all the maintenance a guy can want
I thought that only replies to really tall women..... Hank Hill is wrong!

[Coyote]

The 2013 service manual now has the method of torquing the compensator bolt using the locking bar. Glad I didn't spring for one of those big ass wrenches. 


6. See Figure 5-12. Place the PRIMARY DRIVE LOCKING
TOOL (Part No. HD-48219) between the teeth of the
engine and clutch sprockets as shown.
7. Tighten compensating sprocket bolt (1) to 100 ft-lbs (135.6
Nm).
8. Loosen full turn.
9. Final tighten to 140 ft-lbs (189.8 Nm).
10. See Figure 5-13. Install the PRIMARY DRIVE LOCKING
TOOL (Part No. HD-48219) between the teeth of the
engine and clutch sprockets as shown.
11. Tighten clutch hub mainshaft nut (2) to 70-80 ft-lbs (94.9-
108.5 Nm). Remove primary drive locking tool.

[Admiral Akbar]

Wow.. ...   

Max

[FSG]

[TweekmyTwin]

Ouch ! Glad I didn't go out and buy a 1-3/4 open end wrench... Thanks guys for posting that.... I was so confused

[FSG]

get the grand kids to lend a hand by swinging on the end of the cheater bar