Would you let this guy work on your bike?

[hd06myway]

In the "old days" guys use to set their idels as low as possible to the point of almost stalling, because it sounded so cool... well it starves the engine of it's life blood, oil... you could get a way with it somewhat on the Shovels and older bikes, but I think it's a bad idea no matter what yr bike it is.  The Evo's and TC's definitly should be idling at a min of 1k to max engine life.  I remember sitting at a red light in Charlotte NC many moons ago, and this Shovelhead was in the lane next to me, it was a quiet night and his bike was barely idling, it sounded like it was going to cut out anytime, put.. put.. put..put...

[tomcat64]

In all fairness, my local guy was the dealers ONLY trained wrench ( remember those days) and left to open his own shop.  He refers to EFI as fuel infection and sends anything with efi "issues" on down the road to the H-D dealer.  As far as I know he is on no tech forums.  However, he is probably one of the more experienced Evo, Shovel, Pan, Knuck, or flathead guys you will find around.  He lives for that basket case that comes in the door with a " Any chance you can put this back together for me?".  Simply put, he can make a decent living doing general service, tire sales, putting chrome do-dads on for guys that buy them with no intention of spinning a wrench, inspections and working on old iron.  By design he avoids the stuff that would result in a need for expensive test equipment.  The local dealer sends work to him when it's stuff "too old" for them to service, and I have also seen more than an occasional twin cam stripped down to the cases getting a darkhorse crank installed.  He will build TC's, but then sends them right on down to the dealer for dyno tuning. Would I go to him for an intermittant ECM type EFI problem?  Probably not as he just isn't equipped to do it and be profitable.  Would I trust him to do a top end job on an EFI bike as long as the understanding was tuning was in my lap?  Sure.

we have this type of relationship with a few local indys.. if done correctly it is benificial to all three involved,, indy, dealer, customer!!

[threadkiller]

While I wish I had the 50K for a dyno and cell or that extra $1200.00 or so for all the necessary breakout boxes, I strive to stay as "current" as the MoCo will let me (w/HHT's help!). I'm completely aware of my capabilities and have no problem referring people to folks better equipped than I (even if it might be a dealer). It may be dollars out of my pocket but IMO its the best kind of customer service. TK.

[Ultrashovel]

You could take your bike to him for things that he is equipped to handle. That said, most Indies arent going to have a Harley Digital Technician and the complement of diagnostic software that goes with it to fix late model Harleys. I don't think you can even buy that stuff unless you are a dealer.

Yeah, I know, there is some aftermarket diagnostic equipment out there, but it's pricey and most old school mechanics aren't going to buy it.

[easyricer]

"Yeah, I know, there is some aftermarket diagnostic equipment out there, but it's pricey and most old school mechanics aren't going to buy it. "
Much of what happens with any motorcycle, it still takes a REAL MECHANIC to trouble shoot, we just have to understand more of what does what and how or why. It makes little difference if it is carbed with points, or fuel injected with a CDI ignition. All this computer stuff does is help narrow down the problem. That computer is not going to tell anyone that the cam shoes are shot and tearing up the oil pump until the damage is done and the pump stops pumping. It's also not going to tell you that the valves are burnt and the motor is loosing compression.
I work on Carbed and EFI, Harley's and metrics, as well as the new 4-wheelers and UTV's. Harley may claim to be at the cutting edge but trust me they are far from it, everything on a Harley has been out there for at least a decade. Indies, like myself, just have to keep reading and learning to stay up with it.
EASY

[Brrrap]

Is the dividing line going to be: Carb'd = Old school -and- EFI = new school? I had to remind a dealership wrench who questioned difficulty on start up, that my bike,when cold needs a little help from that little device called a choke! Could a 2002 FLHT be old school? 1 experience with a tech that was spoiled on EFI makes me believe so. (But hell, I'm frequently wrong,,,,,,,,)

[Ultrashovel]

"Yeah, I know, there is some aftermarket diagnostic equipment out there, but it's pricey and most old school mechanics aren't going to buy it. "
Much of what happens with any motorcycle, it still takes a REAL MECHANIC to trouble shoot, we just have to understand more of what does what and how or why. It makes little difference if it is carbed with points, or fuel injected with a CDI ignition. All this computer stuff does is help narrow down the problem. That computer is not going to tell anyone that the cam shoes are shot and tearing up the oil pump until the damage is done and the pump stops pumping. It's also not going to tell you that the valves are burnt and the motor is loosing compression.
I work on Carbed and EFI, Harley's and metrics, as well as the new 4-wheelers and UTV's. Harley may claim to be at the cutting edge but trust me they are far from it, everything on a Harley has been out there for at least a decade. Indies, like myself, just have to keep reading and learning to stay up with it.
EASY

You can get by without the Harley software but there are things you won't be able to diagnose without it. The new bikes are even more complex with full Canbus intercommunication beginning in the 2013 model year.

[easyricer]

"full Canbus intercommunication beginning in the 2013 model year"
Yup, more reading to do! This has been in cars and trucks for several years now. I'm pretty curious how well it will hold up exposed to the elements like on a motorcycle. There are very few ATV's and UTV's that are running similar systems, but the switches are still standard switches. I understand Harley is using the integrated switches as well. It will be interesting to say the least.
EASY

[Ultrashovel]

"full Canbus intercommunication beginning in the 2013 model year"
Yup, more reading to do! This has been in cars and trucks for several years now. I'm pretty curious how well it will hold up exposed to the elements like on a motorcycle. There are very few ATV's and UTV's that are running similar systems, but the switches are still standard switches. I understand Harley is using the integrated switches as well. It will be interesting to say the least.
EASY

I think you can probably still do 90% of the things needed on a late model bike.

The CAnbus is related to OBD (on board diagnostics) that have been on cars for quite some time and federal law requires it on all vehicles nowadays.

About ten years ago, the catalytic converter went bad on my 1998 Dodge Dakota P/U. It solidified and started clunking inside.  They had aftermarket ones at auto stores but they were generic and wouldn't fit without some cutting and welding. Then I found out that here in California, they won't pass smog on an aftermarket unit with any car that has OBDII or later. Cost me $350 installed. cough, cough.

Then a couple of years ago, I ran over a concrete parking barrier with my 2000 Ford Escort. (I was sober, just didn't see it in the dark). It tore a hole in the calatytic converter. On the Escort, that's part of the whole front exhaust pipe and it's 7 feet long! The Ford dealer was the only place that I could get it fixed since you can't use aftermarket units and I couldn't install it myself anyway since the car is slo low and I don't have a lift. Even with a $100 discount it was still over $1,0000. Cough, cough, barf.

The EPA is hurting us.

[easyricer]

Yeah, that is exactly right. OBDII will basically put a strangle hold on the aftermarket for Motorcycles. It really does not mean much for an Indie since all the standard failures are still going to be there, just many more sensors or wires leading to them.
It probably will not be long before Goldwings, Roadliners and Ultra Classics hit the brakes before we can. (Hell Honda has had an airbag built in now for a couple of years!)
EASY

[prodrag1320]

probebly isnt alot worse than alot of MMI trained HD wrenches

[Admiral Akbar]

Yeah, that is exactly right. OBDII will basically put a strangle hold on the aftermarket for Motorcycles. It really does not mean much for an Indie since all the standard failures are still going to be there, just many more sensors or wires leading to them.
It probably will not be long before Goldwings, Roadliners and Ultra Classics hit the brakes before we can. (Hell Honda has had an airbag built in now for a couple of years!)
EASY

Do you really think so?? I don't.. Nice thing about ODBII and can bus is that you can get a can bus reader with USB interface for a couple hundred bucks.. It will include a sniffer that can decode raw messages.. One of the main reasons for making this stuff available is for development of complex systems that can be connected to the can bus.. A few years ago I did the hardware on a CAN system that collected Plugin Prius CAN bus data, encrypted it  and sent it wireless to a server for collection and analysis. All that is needed is for someone to identify the packet header, definition and go from there..  My bet is that diagnostics will get better as the result.. How many play with the bios on their PC these days??  How many set up static IP addresses on your home network..

Max

[geezerglide]

"full Canbus intercommunication beginning in the 2013 model year"
Yup, more reading to do! This has been in cars and trucks for several years now. I'm pretty curious how well it will hold up exposed to the elements like on a motorcycle. There are very few ATV's and UTV's that are running similar systems, but the switches are still standard switches. I understand Harley is using the integrated switches as well. It will be interesting to say the least.
EASY

BMW has been using the CANBUS for many years on their touring and on the GS supposedly off road use, also I think KTM. There were some minor early problems, have seemed to iron them out. You can add on add other panels to compliment other electronics.

geezerglide

geezerglide

[bigbearkiller]

The guys a total idiot.....500 rpm on a shovel ? I recon a service manual should be his first stop.Sounds like what he don't know...his customers pay for.

[easyricer]

Arctic Cat has been using these systems for a couple of years. While I couldn't access the codes themselves, I was able to trouble shoot all of the systems that were being affected. It would loose power and shut down after about 5 miles of running in low gear. I thought it was the coil failing. In the end it turned out the ECM was overheating and needed replaced. It is pretty close to the muffler and was suffering. I made a heat shield to help protect it and installed a new ECM. Made for a happy customer. So even with CANbus, the same old troubleshooting methods still apply.
What I meant by putting a strangle hold on the aftermarket, is very similar to the automotive side, the ECM will recognize that it is being tampered with. Aftermarket pipes, air cleaners, cams, and other modifications may take a little more than just a piggyback module to get it going, until the  after market catches up again.
I can see where with the possibilities can take us as indies, since the CANbus systems are fairly common in the automotive market.
EASY

[04 SE Deuce]

Ducati has been Canbus for several years.. I haven't seen or heard of problems.  Rick