Cam Selector

[onionfmr]

I posted this before as part of another post and didn't get any comments.  Bike is a 2012 RGU w/Fullsac sport pipe, SE A/C and stock mufflers.  I'm getting ready to do cams and I'm trying to figure this out.  Cam Selector's base TTS map for my engine configuration is opening at 4 and close at 3.  Engine would barely run on those setting when I loaded the base map.  When I ran the Cam Analyzer, I got a 6 for opening and the Fullsac map I had was using 2 for close setting.  So, I'm running 6 and 2, respectively for settings.  Engine is smooth and seems fine.  Trying to figure out why my Stage I configuration would be so much different then the TTS base map for my configuration?  Any ideas why the difference?  Thanks - Ted

[Ohio HD]

If the cam in the base map is the same as the cam you have in the bike, then I would be at a loss for why, just as you are. Is your cam, and the cam in the base map the same? Looking at the cam selector tool in TTS, to get a value of 6 for intake opening, the estimated intake opening is at TDC, and then goes to 11 degress ATDC. Is your cam specs anywhere near that opening spec?

[onionfmr]

Ohio HD - thanks for the reply.  I was starting to feel lonely, since I had 100+ views and no reply - LOL.  To recap, everything is stock on the bike (2012 RGU purchased new) but the Fullsac sport pipe, SE A/C and TTS.  I've tried several TTS base maps for my engine configuration (cams) and unless I make a change to the cam selector, the engine will barely run.  Certainly couldn't be ridden.  I'm getting ready to do cams and I'm trying to figure out what is going on before I install new cams and then find that base maps for those cams won't work (because of something else) as I'm currently experiencing.  Thanks - Ted

[Ohio HD]

Well, the number 6 setting would make sense for a stock cam, so I guess that's why it runs good there. As to why the map is at 4?    Maybe Steve will pop in and give the answer.

But I would use the cam analyzer tool the very first thing, when downloading a new map.

[Steve Cole]

How/where did you come up with the numbers of 4 open and 3 closed? I assume those were in a base calibration you looked at. If so those were the settings used when that base calibration was made. What I would do is just run the opening test and see where it needs to be fore your bike as that is the only real way to tell what your engine wants. The estimator should get you close but it can be off at times. The test using DataMaster is the only sure way to know what you need.

[rbabos]

How/where did you come up with the numbers of 4 open and 3 closed? I assume those were in a base calibration you looked at. If so those were the settings used when that base calibration was made. What I would do is just run the opening test and see where it needs to be fore your bike as that is the only real way to tell what your engine wants. The estimator should get you close but it can be off at times. The test using DataMaster is the only sure way to know what you need.

So, why would you use the wrong cam numbers to develop the base cal for a basic stock bike?
Ron

[1FSTRK]

I posted this before as part of another post and didn't get any comments.  Bike is a 2012 RGU w/Fullsac sport pipe, SE A/C and stock mufflers.  I'm getting ready to do cams and I'm trying to figure this out.  Cam Selector's base TTS map for my engine configuration is opening at 4 and close at 3.  Engine would barely run on those setting when I loaded the base map.  When I ran the Cam Analyzer, I got a 6 for opening and the Fullsac map I had was using 2 for close setting.  So, I'm running 6 and 2, respectively for settings.  Engine is smooth and seems fine.  Trying to figure out why my Stage I configuration would be so much different then the TTS base map for my configuration?  Any ideas why the difference?  Thanks - Ted

Does TTS even have a base cal for this bike with stock mufflers? Because the cam selector is just when the MAP sample is taken I would bet stopped up exhaust will affect MAP readings at an idle.

[onionfmr]

As an update, doesn't seem to matter which mufflers I use (I've switched out several sets now) I still get 6 for opening using the cam selector.  I wonder if it could be the Fullsac sport pipe?  I'm getting ready to do cams and would like to try to figure this out.  Thanks - Ted.

[Ohio HD]

Ted, I would just plan to do the cams, then run the cam analyzer when you're ready to tune. You can set it at what ever the estimator recommends for start up, but in the end, the analyzer tool will point you to the correct setting if it needs changed.

[Steve Cole]

As an update, doesn't seem to matter which mufflers I use (I've switched out several sets now) I still get 6 for opening using the cam selector.  I wonder if it could be the Fullsac sport pipe?  I'm getting ready to do cams and would like to try to figure this out.  Thanks - Ted.

Send me your test data so I can take a look at what you have.

[strokerjlk]

Ted, I would just plan to do the cams, then run the cam analyzer when you're ready to tune. You can set it at what ever the estimator recommends for start up, but in the end, the analyzer tool will point you to the correct setting if it needs changed.

Really ? That's pretty hard for him to do since he can only do half the analyzer.
Got one for you. S&S 675 cams estimator said 2-6
Analyzer says 2-6 ( on dyno) so alls good right?
With a mt 7 map that I tuned the bike with a couple mts ago (58 mm t/b. zilla 2-1) now 62 mm t/b and burns pipe. The bike idled at 30-32 kpa . (both combos)
Now after the cam analyzer and barro correction was done, it idles at 50-52 kpa.
Normally this wouldn't be a big deal. I Got it to idle smooth at 50 kpa
But
This bike will stroll down the road at 30-40 kpa  between 2200-3000 rpms 0-2 % throttle.
Just like a strong idle. See a problem here?

[Ohio HD]

Ted, I would just plan to do the cams, then run the cam analyzer when you're ready to tune. You can set it at what ever the estimator recommends for start up, but in the end, the analyzer tool will point you to the correct setting if it needs changed.

Really ? That's pretty hard for him to do since he can only do half the analyzer.
Got one for you. S&S 675 cams estimator said 2-6
Analyzer says 2-6 ( on dyno) so alls good right?
With a mt 7 map that I tuned the bike with a couple mts ago (58 mm t/b. zilla 2-1) now 62 mm t/b and burns pipe. The bike idled at 30-32 kpa . (both combos)
Now after the cam analyzer and barro correction was done, it idles at 50-52 kpa.
Normally this wouldn't be a big deal. I Got it to idle smooth at 50 kpa
But
This bike will stroll down the road at 30-40 kpa  between 2200-3000 rpms 0-2 % throttle.
Just like a strong idle. See a problem here?

Of course he can only do half the analyze without a dyno, he knows that, as do I. The value he's questioning and has had an issue with is the intake closing, which we can analyze without a dyno. So yes, really.

[1FSTRK]

Got one for you. S&S 675 cams estimator said 2-6
Analyzer says 2-6 ( on dyno) so alls good right?
With a mt 7 map that I tuned the bike with a couple mts ago (58 mm t/b. zilla 2-1) now 62 mm t/b and burns pipe. The bike idled at 30-32 kpa . (both combos)
Now after the cam analyzer and barro correction was done, it idles at 50-52 kpa.
Normally this wouldn't be a big deal. I Got it to idle smooth at 50 kpa
But This bike will stroll down the road at 30-40 kpa  between 2200-3000 rpms 0-2 % throttle.
Just like a strong idle. See a problem here?

Could you explain this further? 
What caused the problem?
What fixed the problem?
Did you go back to the mt7 base cal to fix it?

[rbabos]

Ted, I would just plan to do the cams, then run the cam analyzer when you're ready to tune. You can set it at what ever the estimator recommends for start up, but in the end, the analyzer tool will point you to the correct setting if it needs changed.

Really ? That's pretty hard for him to do since he can only do half the analyzer.
Got one for you. S&S 675 cams estimator said 2-6
Analyzer says 2-6 ( on dyno) so alls good right?
With a mt 7 map that I tuned the bike with a couple mts ago (58 mm t/b. zilla 2-1) now 62 mm t/b and burns pipe. The bike idled at 30-32 kpa . (both combos)
Now after the cam analyzer and barro correction was done, it idles at 50-52 kpa.
Normally this wouldn't be a big deal. I Got it to idle smooth at 50 kpa
But
This bike will stroll down the road at 30-40 kpa  between 2200-3000 rpms 0-2 % throttle.
Just like a strong idle. See a problem here?

Yes. Both my 113 and this 120 run in a very narrow KPA range. It lives in the idle kpa or slightly lower in normal operation. Nominal idle is 35kpa , cruise is 32ish with light loads in the high 20s. Going into 6th with 65mph on the speedo it only shows 40-42kpa at a blistering 6.4 tps position.
Geeze, road tune this prick.
Ron

[strokerjlk]

Ron I thought of you as soon as I seen what was going on

Could you explain this further? 
What caused the problem?
What fixed the problem?
Did you go back to the mt7 base cal to fix it?

this bike didnt have act this way untill the 62 mm t/b and burns pipe.
I dont think the pipe has anything to do with it,so that leaves the T/B
I am not anywhere near done.
but I have went back to the mt 7 cal.
Jay's 117 burns pipe

[Steve Cole]

Could you explain this further? 
What caused the problem?
What fixed the problem?
Did you go back to the mt7 base cal to fix it?

For anyone that thinks switching from a .MT7 to a .MT8 is going to cause or cure an idle kPa issue you are sadly mistaken. The .MT7 calibrations all have preset EGR and Cam functions that you cannot adjust and the .MT8 allows for adjustment of them. There are a few here that talk in circles and really try to confuse things about this but the bottom line is what I told you.

[hrdtail78]

From what I have seen. A free flowing pipe and TB would affect low rpm. Just like taking the header off would.

Glad to see you trying the mt8's. Be careful cause now you have locked the ECM. Lol   You mention baro correction. Is that the "minimum TPS for baro correction" table?  What did you want that to do for you?  This table is to let the ECM know when to use the calculation for baro. Meaning when it see's 100kpa. It isn't going to affect the problem kpa that you are stating.  A lot of times with big tb's, free flowing exhaust, and cams made to make power in the upper end of things. The throttle plate stop needs to be adjusted.  As you know. High overlap, free flowing equals hard to tune small throttle openings.

[hrdtail78]

I posted this before as part of another post and didn't get any comments.  Bike is a 2012 RGU w/Fullsac sport pipe, SE A/C and stock mufflers.  I'm getting ready to do cams and I'm trying to figure this out.  Cam Selector's base TTS map for my engine configuration is opening at 4 and close at 3.  Engine would barely run on those setting when I loaded the base map.  When I ran the Cam Analyzer, I got a 6 for opening and the Fullsac map I had was using 2 for close setting.  So, I'm running 6 and 2, respectively for settings.  Engine is smooth and seems fine.  Trying to figure out why my Stage I configuration would be so much different then the TTS base map for my configuration?  Any ideas why the difference?  Thanks - Ted

What base map are you using?  Fullsac's or a TTS base map?  is it based of the DTQ?

So, why would you use the wrong cam numbers to develop the base cal for a basic stock bike?
Ron

See question above.  Might not be TTS's base map.

As an update, doesn't seem to matter which mufflers I use (I've switched out several sets now) I still get 6 for opening using the cam selector.  I wonder if it could be the Fullsac sport pipe?  I'm getting ready to do cams and would like to try to figure this out.  Thanks - Ted.

Send me your test data so I can take a look at what you have.

Can't beat that type of CS.

[rbabos]

From what I have seen. A free flowing pipe and TB would affect low rpm. Just like taking the header off would.

Glad to see you trying the mt8's. Be careful cause now you have locked the ECM. Lol   You mention baro correction. Is that the "minimum TPS for baro correction" table?  What did you want that to do for you?  This table is to let the ECM know when to use the calculation for baro. Meaning when it see's 100kpa. It isn't going to affect the problem kpa that you are stating.  A lot of times with big tb's, free flowing exhaust, and cams made to make power in the upper end of things. The throttle plate stop needs to be adjusted.  As you know. High overlap, free flowing equals hard to tune small throttle openings.

Don't see how the adjusting the throttle plate makes a difference to kpa. If you close it the iac opens giving x amount of air per idle speed setting. If you open it the iac closes to retain the set rpm. In both cases the kpa remains the same as long as the idle speed is the same and the limits of the iac are not reached. The air entry would be the same on the back side of the throttle plate in both cases. The only purpose I've found to adjust the throttle screw was to establish correct iac points along with reseting the tps volts. In my case both. Idle speed and kpa were not effected.
Ron

[hrdtail78]

That's interesting. How many bikes to come up with this?  Jim states he is idling at 2200 going down the road. Doesn't the VSS have some type of input into iac position? Isn't it closing or closed at speeds?  Then aren't we relying on the air going around the throttle plate?  Maybe the goal just isn't idle. Maybe it is also low rpm drivability.

[onionfmr]

Send me your test data so I can take a look at what you have.

Steve - I 've emailed you two camtunedata files.  Thanks for your help.

[strokerjlk]

 The bike idles fine at 30 kpa with the mt7 and at 50 kpa with the mt8.
I don't give a flip what kpa it idles at ...you can tune idle. Or some can
And I can tune this thing to run down the road with either map.
I would rather have the idle kpa at 30 myself, and most others would from what I read around  here . If it is 40 50 kpa it usually isnt a big deal if you know what your doing.
In this case I find it to my advantage to have it at 30 kpa. (given the narrow operating range.)
I do find it interesting that every mt 8 I set up  comes out idling at 50 kpa.
Ron you do that to me on purpose don't you? 
Ok
Yes hardtail I know what the tables are for.
the tts constants was set at 20 and the test results were 20-22.5  at 2400 3000 rpms
Thanks for reading it for me though

Oninfmr. You can't do the complete analyzer so your guessing at best.
Get something in there that idles at 30-35 kpa and call it good, then v tune or whatever.

[onionfmr]

What base map are you using?  Fullsac's or a TTS base map?  is it based of the DTQ?

Just to clarify, I started out running a TTS map that I got from Fullsac.  Bike ran okay, but, I had a lot of pinging and decel popping.  I decided to start from scratch (just to see what I'd get), so I loaded TTS map DTA044-03-A0.MT8.  That's where I noticed the difference with the cam selector settings.

[wurk_truk]

50 at idle, I would wish to go back to the MT7.  Timing, IMHO, would be a BITCH to dial in right.  Try a few different cals and get one that idles at 30-35 like Jim says.  Jim most assuredly could get the timing close, but me?  A DIYer?  I don't feel right with that high of idle KPA.  FIRST thing I do is work with idle after the VEs are roughed in.  One thing I do do, thanks to Jim, is look at cold starting, etc.  I tend to make my idle timing the same in a few columns, so that I don't get surging as it warms up.  50 would drive me craxzy, like it did mid 40s on my old 107, at first.

OP, I feel Jim is giving good solid advice here.  Regardless of what is said and what tables we can acess, there are a LOT of tables we can NOT access.  How these tables are laid out is how a 'base tune' is formulated.  Trying different base cals, tries different hidden settings and very well easily can drop that kpa at idle, just like I have seen with my own two eyes.  I get way less on MY MT8 file... but... that is an old 205 base cal and NOT a lambda cal, and that COULD be an issue, if it were me.

[rbabos]

The bike idles fine at 30 kpa with the mt7 and at 50 kpa with the mt8.
I don't give a flip what kpa it idles at ...you can tune idle. Or some can
And I can tune this thing to run down the road with either map.
I would rather have the idle kpa at 30 myself, and most others would from what I read around  here . If it is 40 50 kpa it usually isnt a big deal if you know what your doing.
In this case I find it to my advantage to have it at 30 kpa. (given the narrow operating range.)
I do find it interesting that every mt 8 I set up  comes out idling at 50 kpa.
Ron you do that to me on purpose don't you? 
Ok
Yes hardtail I know what the tables are for.
the tts constants was set at 20 and the test results were 20-22.5  at 2400 3000 rpms
Thanks for reading it for me though

Oninfmr. You can't do the complete analyzer so your guessing at best.
Get something in there that idles at 30-35 kpa and call it good, then v tune or whatever.

Jim: Don't know what you are accusing me of.
Ron