How to tell if a compensator is bad

[rob71458]

Yes, it is part of the rotor, but I could remove the springs.

[FSG]

I know the after '07 spring packs have 5 springs of 3 different sizes but I don't know what size the '07 springs are, can you check, measure and post?  TIA

[rob71458]

Oh Man  Measure and post? Sounds like homework! I will see what I can do.

[FSG]

   thanks   

[rbabos]

I know the after '07 spring packs have 5 springs of 3 different sizes but I don't know what size the '07 springs are, can you check, measure and post?  TIA

Only the SE comp has 5 springs with two larger, two medium and one similar to the stocker.  Stocker has 4 all the same dia and thickness stacked in series inside the can. Once the 3 can dimples are flattened with plyers the springs will come out.
To confuse it even more the SE has undergone a thickness revision on the largest and medium dia discs with no stated revision to the 08A. Could be snuck in or the supplier screwed up.
Ron

[runamuck]

I saw that one poster cleaned comp bolt and put it back in and re-torqued  but I thought those bolts were good for only one use and then replace..is that not correct?..

[rbabos]

I saw that one poster cleaned comp bolt and put it back in and re-torqued  but I thought those bolts were good for only one use and then replace..is that not correct?..

Replacing is the best option.
Ron

[rob71458]

OK, I measured the "springs". OD is 4.110, ID is 2.995, Stacked in series unloaded is .680. Like Ron said, there are a total of four in the 07's. Hope this helps.

[Velocity1]

Well I got a little further yesterday afternoon, I stumbled upon a nuts & bolts shop that also had springs and a counter guy a good 10 years my senior that knew his business.  When he measured the ID of the Beville Spring I'd put on the counter he said "Son your not going to find one of them in Australia" followed by the ID is Imperial, 3", Australia is Metric and whatever we have will be 5mm too small or 5mm too large.  Pulling out a catalog he showed me the spring range and it skips from 72mm straight to 80mm.  Nothing near 3" which is 76.xmm.

V1 if you find them in the US I'd be interested in a couple.

FSG,
Thanks for your efforts. Interesting.  Once I locate a donor comp. I'll grab the one I need and you can have the rest.
Thanks.

[FSG]

V1, Rob has the springs out of his '07 available, I'll go you halves.      thanks Rob.

[Velocity1]

OK, I measured the "springs". OD is 4.110, ID is 2.995, Stacked in series unloaded is .680. Like Ron said, there are a total of four in the 07's. Hope this helps.

Rob,

I'm interested in what you've got?   I can gift you Paypal to save expenses.  PM me with the cost.  I'm located in Northern MD zip 21001.

thanks

[rob71458]

PM answered.

[xlfan]

Does anyone know the correct stack height when correct torque are applied @ sprocket shaft?

Does anyone know how much pressure applied on a shop press would equal 160 ft/lbs of torque @ sprocket shaft?

[rbabos]

Does anyone know the correct stack height when correct torque are applied @ sprocket shaft?

Does anyone know how much pressure applied on a shop press would equal 160 ft/lbs of torque @ sprocket shaft?

Why? Discs will be flat long before that. The torque rating on the bolt is only to stretch it beyond any cyclic loads it will see in operation. This will only compress the discs about a nominal .065 from their free stack height. 60-80'lbs will likey flatten them in operation with cam rotation. The SE is more but the pack will be fully compressed way before the 140 torque is reached. If the preload is correct, then the discs are at normal pressure and haven't weakend.
Ron

[Barrett]

I have this NIB.. It was for a 2001 Night Train, my Brother traded in his bike before install..

[xlfan]

Does anyone know the correct stack height when correct torque are applied @ sprocket shaft?

Does anyone know how much pressure applied on a shop press would equal 160 ft/lbs of torque @ sprocket shaft?

Why? Discs will be flat long before that. The torque rating on the bolt is only to stretch it beyond any cyclic loads it will see in operation. This will only compress the discs about a nominal .065 from their free stack height. 60-80'lbs will likey flatten them in operation with cam rotation. The SE is more but the pack will be fully compressed way before the 140 torque is reached. If the preload is correct, then the discs are at normal pressure and haven't weakend.
Ron

I was thinking in lines of taking the guesswork out of the comp nut bottoming question. If belleville's have lost tension, you will in effect shorten the sprocket shaft available before nut bottoming. If the belleville's are weakend without bottoming, i would like to know how they act when overcompressed and the compensator needs more compressing. Is it enough left to compress on, or will it make noise?

[PC_Hater]

I was thinking in lines of taking the guesswork out of the comp nut bottoming question. If belleville's have lost tension, you will in effect shorten the sprocket shaft available before nut bottoming. If the belleville's are weakend without bottoming, i would like to know how they act when overcompressed and the compensator needs more compressing. Is it enough left to compress on, or will it make noise?

xlfan, are you saying that the comp nut should be bottomed out?
And what should it bottom out on? On my bike it was hitting the end of the shaft extension.
what follows are the notes I made while using the equations at http://springipedia.com/belleville-washers-formulas.asp

Measurements -
distance from end of nut to rotor without outer cam = 85.7mm
distance from end of nut to rotor with full comp sprocket hand tight
   = 87.0mm
gap = 1.3mm

how strong are the belleville springs?
with 1.3mm shared over 4 springs 1 spring will deflect 0.325mm

from comp4.jpg h = 2.1mm (see FSGs comp nut drawings)

http://springipedia.com/belleville-washers-formulas.asp
gives:-

the deflection of 0.325mm is about 15% of h
the ratio of h to t is 2.1 / 2.39 = 0.878
the graph shows that with 15% deflection the 0.878 ratio curve is about 22% of the load at flat deflection

So, what is the load at flat deflection?
we need to know the Diameter Ratio = OD / ID = De/Di
   = 105/76 = 1.381579
we need to know Poissons ratio mu = use 0.3
we need to know the modulus of Elasticity E, use 30,000,000psi
smax = 2.1mm

= 5235N or 1185lb so 20% = 240lb : is that enough load?

[FSG]

The nut should never bottom out.

[Velocity1]

Does anyone know the correct stack height when correct torque are applied @ sprocket shaft?

Does anyone know how much pressure applied on a shop press would equal 160 ft/lbs of torque @ sprocket shaft?

Why? Discs will be flat long before that. The torque rating on the bolt is only to stretch it beyond any cyclic loads it will see in operation. This will only compress the discs about a nominal .065 from their free stack height. 60-80'lbs will likey flatten them in operation with cam rotation. The SE is more but the pack will be fully compressed way before the 140 torque is reached. If the preload is correct, then the discs are at normal pressure and haven't weakend.
Ron

I was thinking in lines of taking the guesswork out of the comp nut bottoming question. If belleville's have lost tension, you will in effect shorten the sprocket shaft available before nut bottoming. If the belleville's are weakend without bottoming, i would like to know how they act when overcompressed and the compensator needs more compressing. Is it enough left to compress on, or will it make noise?

How does the Fisher Concepts comp. work? What's behind the gear, springs, etc?

[1FSTRK]

The nut should never bottom out.

What do you mean by bottom out?
What surface bottoms out on what?

[PC_Hater]

The nut should never bottom out.

What do you mean by bottom out?
What surface bottoms out on what?

The compensating sprocket nut should just compress the spring pack.
By bottoming out we mean that as you tighten up the compensating sprocket nut it hits metal, and so you apply 160ftlb to an unwanted metal-to metal contact.
On my bike I discovered that the end of the compensating sprocket nut was hitting the end of the shaft extension that the actual sprocket rides on.

[rbabos]

Note the red marking. You want to compress the comp assembly but not bottom the end of the nut on the end of the crank. If it does the rotor and comp will be loose on the crank.
Ron

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[1FSTRK]

The nut should never bottom out.

What do you mean by bottom out?
What surface bottoms out on what?

The compensating sprocket nut should just compress the spring pack.
By bottoming out we mean that as you tighten up the compensating sprocket nut it hits metal, and so you apply 160ftlb to an unwanted metal-to metal contact.
On my bike I discovered that the end of the compensating sprocket nut was hitting the end of the shaft extension that the actual sprocket rides on.

That is what it is supposed to do. The end of the sleeve nut should not contact the splines on the crank shaft, but the outer shoulder should tighten solid against the shaft extension which squeezes the inner shim, rotor washer, rotor, and seal spacer against the outer timken bearing and sets the load on the bearing. That is where the pressure from the 160 ft lbs goes. The comp spring preload is predetermined by the thickness of the spring pack. If you do not have enough spring pressure you you need a new spring pack. If you have taken the tq load off your shaft extension and placed it on your spring pack some how your running with your rotor and outer timken loose.

[rbabos]

Does anyone know the correct stack height when correct torque are applied @ sprocket shaft?

Does anyone know how much pressure applied on a shop press would equal 160 ft/lbs of torque @ sprocket shaft?

Why? Discs will be flat long before that. The torque rating on the bolt is only to stretch it beyond any cyclic loads it will see in operation. This will only compress the discs about a nominal .065 from their free stack height. 60-80'lbs will likey flatten them in operation with cam rotation. The SE is more but the pack will be fully compressed way before the 140 torque is reached. If the preload is correct, then the discs are at normal pressure and haven't weakend.
Ron

I was thinking in lines of taking the guesswork out of the comp nut bottoming question. If belleville's have lost tension, you will in effect shorten the sprocket shaft available before nut bottoming. If the belleville's are weakend without bottoming, i would like to know how they act when overcompressed and the compensator needs more compressing. Is it enough left to compress on, or will it make noise?

How does the Fisher Concepts comp. work? What's behind the gear, springs, etc?

It's a harmonic damper, not a compensator.
Ron

[PC_Hater]

The nut should never bottom out.

What do you mean by bottom out?
What surface bottoms out on what?

The compensating sprocket nut should just compress the spring pack.
By bottoming out we mean that as you tighten up the compensating sprocket nut it hits metal, and so you apply 160ftlb to an unwanted metal-to metal contact.
On my bike I discovered that the end of the compensating sprocket nut was hitting the end of the shaft extension that the actual sprocket rides on.

That is what it is supposed to do. The end of the sleeve nut should not contact the splines on the crank shaft, but the outer shoulder should tighten solid against the shaft extension which squeezes the inner shim, rotor washer, rotor, and seal spacer against the outer timken bearing and sets the load on the bearing. That is where the pressure from the 160 ft lbs goes. The comp spring preload is predetermined by the thickness of the spring pack. If you do not have enough spring pressure you you need a new spring pack. If you have taken the tq load off your shaft extension and placed it on your spring pack some how your running with your rotor and outer timken loose.

Now I'm confused again...
Discuss the merits/demerits of what the nut should and should not bottom out on amongst yourselves please!