Mt8 or Mt7 ?

[Durwood]

Jason, I am aware that different fuels will have varied results,my point was not to tune to "stoich 14.6" as you yourself just stated the afr could swing up or down .5,that makes 15.1,I definetly don't want to go there.

What I stated above is true,if you don't believe me,that's cool..

[ToBeFrank]

The number of .5 is in the directions published by DDT.  This is after you calibrate the flashing lights.

From their web site (listed on all their wego products):

Highly accurate with less than ±0.10 AFR error over 10.3 - 19.5 AFR range

[hrdtail78]

He loaded it back in. He has a weird hesitation, but as Jim said via email. Might not be able to tune out on a 09. He hasn't brought it back so what I do know is only emails.

[Herko]

Yes, there are a few 0.5 AFR remarks in the DTT Twin Scan Instructions. But, none are in reference to the accuracy of the TSII(III) / WEGO system itself.

[hrdtail78]

6. Repeat steps 3-5 until no shaded cells (excessively
rich or lean) appear in the VE percent correction
table. Don't worry about cells with a few percent
error. If no shaded cells appear, everything is
within ±0.5 AFR. This is about the expected
accuracy of the Delphi® open loop speed-density
system.


Might not be referencing the TS or WEGO, but as I understand it.  He is saying with a Delphi open loop speed-density system.  So, the point I was trying to make of Durwood not knowing what his AF is before the change to after still stands.  It isn't about believing him or not believing him.  Just saying to make adjustments, and then make statements about the results without knowing things like EGT, CHT and actual AF is opinion and should be treated as such.

You guys have fun.  Last I will post on the subject. 

[wurk_truk]

You are missing the point, ex avaition guy. Exhaust temps are what he is feeling.
Ron

I wasn't missing the point either Ron.  Normally, there would be NO FRIGGING WAY a human could detect the heat variance off of the pipes with a .2 AFR change.  I don't care WHAT, you, and Jamie, and all the rest state.  NOBODY is going to be able to tell.

What COULD happen is just like Jason played out, and... remember that Darren did NOT mess with timing. When he did that.  So...  in my mind then and my mind now, seeking a 'mileage' tune with his bike all set up by Jim...  with the very real possibility that the stars all aligned and he WAS say at 14.4-5 when he thinks it was at 14.0, could have easily heated things up.  Darren is a NO BULLSHIT kind of guy, but NONE of us really knows what his TRUE AFR was on the day I arrived.  As all of you may know...  my simply arriving may have altered his tune all by itself!... the Kool Aid factor is in effect wherever I go, right?

[Durwood]

You are missing the point, ex avaition guy. Exhaust temps are what he is feeling.
Ron

I wasn't missing the point either Ron.  Normally, there would be NO FRIGGING WAY a human could detect the heat variance off of the pipes with a .2 AFR change.  I don't care WHAT, you, and Jamie, and all the rest state.  NOBODY is going to be able to tell.

What COULD happen is just like Jason played out, and... remember that Darren did NOT mess with timing. When he did that.  So...  in my mind then and my mind now, seeking a 'mileage' tune with his bike all set up by Jim...  with the very real possibility that the stars all aligned and he WAS say at 14.4-5 when he thinks it was at 14.0, could have easily heated things up.  Darren is a NO BULLSHIT kind of guy, but NONE of us really knows what his TRUE AFR was on the day I arrived.  As all of you may know...  my simply arriving may have altered his tune all by itself!... the Kool Aid factor is in effect wherever I go, right?

Truk,I never said I knew the actual AFR,as I have no way of monitoring it, I just moved the afr table from the 14.0 it states, from like 30-70 kpa and 1500 to 3500 to 14.2,rode the bike around the loop and back to the house and it was noticable to me.
  The point I was trying to make is, I don't think a 14.6 afr is for me,and the ability to target a user desired afr in
a v-tune /closed loop situation would be cool..Pardon the pun.
No big deal,just my observation of what I did and what I found.

I can tell you this from tuning air cooled Jr. Dragsters, that a couple thou change on a pilot jet size in a 42-45 Mikuni would change the cylinder head temp at idle as much as 5-10 degrees.

[1FSTRK]

If the timing was spot on and you leaned the AFR .2 then add in any margin of error in the system you would most likely see the ion sensing start to pull timing which would add to both engine temp and exhaust temp in a hurry. As any good tuner knows you change one thing you change them all, especially with higher performance very finely tuned combinations.

[Durwood]

If the timing was spot on and you leaned the AFR .2 then add in any margin of error in the system you would most likely see the ion sensing start to pull timing which would add to both engine temp and exhaust temp in a hurry. As any good tuner knows you change one thing you change them all, especially with higher performance very finely tuned combinations.

I agree,on my full size car, when I would get the jetting close I would often fine tune by pulling or adding just a smidge of timing to get it where I wanted it.
This was a bracket car where consistancy is key to winning so the tune had to be spot to get the old sled backing up numbers in weather change.

[1FSTRK]

In fact,  and this WILL frick some of you guys up mentally, IIRC...  Daren had some kind of DFO on his bike, and When Jim went to tune it with TTS, ON A DYNO,  the bike made LESS power!!!!!

If you recall correctly this would explain a lot.

[wurk_truk]

Darren, I KNOW that.  I was bitching at Ron, not you, my friend.  Ron's my friend, too, but

[Durwood]

Durwood, did in fact, tell me about this.  This was the day I came to his house, BTW.  I have NO reason whatsoever to doubt what he told me either.  Darren may be a Stroker cheerleader and all of that...  but he is NOT one to stretch the truth at all.

I felt he messed the tables around, while adjusting for mileage (HAHA!!!), to the point, that he NEEDED to put Jims tune back in.

And... a word about Darren.  Three times, on two different bikes, Darren has 'tuned' his bike simply SOP, and all three times it was really close to the Twin Scan tune that followed.

In fact,  and this WILL frick some of you guys up mentally, IIRC...  Daren had some kind of DFO on his bike, and When Jim went to tune it with TTS, ON A DYNO,  the bike made LESS power!!!!!

Here's the test truk is refering to,It was 5 years ago and the dyno tune did come out on top.
95" Branch PT4 Heads,HQ 575 cams,10.5 comp, RB Racing Prostock pipe and the blue was tuned on the street with Cobra FI 2000,Red line is the TTS dyno tune.


[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[strokerjlk]

In fact,  and this WILL frick some of you guys up mentally, IIRC...  Daren had some kind of DFO on his bike, and When Jim went to tune it with TTS, ON A DYNO,  the bike made LESS power!!!!!

If you recall correctly this would explain a lot.

the story went more like ....
I could only get 5 more hp out of his bike on the dyno,than what Darren did with his cobra tuner.
only because I had control of timing.
when I sent him the sheet I within minute I got a call from a pretty unhappy Durwood.
wanting to know? his exact words were . man I thought this tts chit was all the chit, everyone  told me this and that ,and thats it? I want to tell you man I am disappointed!.
he didnt want to hear any thing about how much better it was running at cruise bla bla bla bla.
this is how we met
we talked about another pipe but it was what it was ,he had a lot of money in this build and pipe.
so I continued to try it with some diff baffles and try anything to see if it would pick up hp. and low end tq.
I was tuning 4500 rpms and set the bike down to idle. got off the bike and watched the pipe turn gold in front of my eyes. long story short I bought his pipe he bought another. we advanced the cam 4 deg and got by.
but honestly with what he had I didnt get him much in the beginning.
and he wasent happy 

I see you posted durwood but I spent so much time typing I still had to post 
Almost forgot
Darren ended up buying the pipe back

[strokerjlk]

this is what turned out of that session.
the RB racing pipe,fatcat,thunderheader session.
turboprop sent me the thunderheader mocked up for a FXR. and the money for a tune. I kinda had to wrap it and make it fit.but he found out what he wanted to know.
still have it Ed if you ever need it back.

[1FSTRK]

What caused the Hp/Tq drop between 3000 and 4000rpm in the first dyno sheet posted?
Was it an exhaust change?

[wurk_truk]

I was NOT knocking Jim OR TTS.  I was showing how  Durwood did a tune, SOP, and got really really close.

[Ohio HD]

Is there advantage to run a mt8 file over a mt7 file ? There is couple more tuning options with the mt8. But what would be the main advantage one over the other? Can a mt7 file just be copied into mt8 file an still give the same results ?

I think that for a bike that will be used on the street, the .MT8 will probably make a better tune for the user. As Steve stated, there are tools that help make the motor tune for more ridability. I just recently finished a 107 top end on my SG, and after about 5 v-tunes, the motor was running very nice, and very smooth. I then started working on the EGR tables to try to smooth the VE tables out a little. After a couple more v-tunes, the EGR changes really made the motor run up through the RPM's quicker, I can feel there is more torque in the lower throttle ranges, and just sounds so smooth. I can't see any reason to not use the .MT8 files.

You can see the differences in the VE tables below, I still need to try and smooth them a little more, but you can see what the EGR changes can do to the VE tables.

Front VE table before EGR changes.
[attach=0]


Front VE table after EGR changes.
[attach=1]

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[strokerjlk]

What caused the Hp/Tq drop between 3000 and 4000rpm in the first dyno sheet posted?
Was it an exhaust change?

The next run laid over it on the bottom, but it only gained 4 hp 
Just normal dyno variable .
Mt 6 so I couldn't use a mt 8 to get it to spool up quicker 

[strokerjlk]

You are missing the point, ex avaition guy. Exhaust temps are what he is feeling.
Ron

I wasn't missing the point either Ron.  Normally, there would be NO FRIGGING WAY a human could detect the heat variance off of the pipes with a .2 AFR change.  I don't care WHAT, you, and Jamie, and all the rest state.  NOBODY is going to be able to tell.

What COULD happen is just like Jason played out, and... remember that Darren did NOT mess with timing. When he did that.  So...  in my mind then and my mind now, seeking a 'mileage' tune with his bike all set up by Jim...  with the very real possibility that the stars all aligned and he WAS say at 14.4-5 when he thinks it was at 14.0, could have easily heated things up.  Darren is a NO BULLSHIT kind of guy, but NONE of us really knows what his TRUE AFR was on the day I arrived.  As all of you may know...  my simply arriving may have altered his tune all by itself!... the Kool Aid factor is in effect wherever I go, right?

Truk,I never said I knew the actual AFR,as I have no way of monitoring it, I just moved the afr table from the 14.0 it states, from like 30-70 kpa and 1500 to 3500 to 14.2,rode the bike around the loop and back to the house and it was noticable to me.
  The point I was trying to make is, I don't think a 14.6 afr is for me,and the ability to target a user desired afr in
a v-tune /closed loop situation would be cool..Pardon the pun.
No big deal,just my observation of what I did and what I found.

I can tell you this from tuning air cooled Jr. Dragsters, that a couple thou change on a pilot jet size in a 42-45 Mikuni would change the cylinder head temp at idle as much as 5-10 degrees.

if you cant move your AFR target .from 14.0 to 14.2  in the AFR table and increase it accurate, then the system has a flaw.
afr dosent change timing. timing changes afr. if Durwoods timing was on the edge enough ,that this change caused the ion sensing to pull timing.....I didnt do my job. running on the edge of advance to the point that .2 afr change induces knock activity is not the way to set timing.

moving the AFR table .2 after getting ve's calibrated.??
I think it works quite nice for these small changes . if it didnt then there would be a lot of tuners bitching.

[hdmanillac]

When working on EGR, you change values in tables taking into account maximum VE or average VE or both ?

[rbabos]

When working on EGR, you change values in tables taking into account maximum VE or average VE or both ?

I'm thinking in order to get the best result, move the dots on the graph and ignor the resultant ve's it creates. Otherwise what good is the graph, right?
Ron

[hdmanillac]

That's right for AFR-based cals.

Mine is lambda-based VE tables. And I always wonder how deltas EGR should be calculated to lower the peak or flatten out the table.