Air Fuel Ratio Meter

[able2222]

I have a carbed '05 Deluxe that I want to put a wide range air/fuel gauge on...anyone out there have any recommendations? I'm looking at RSR and Innovative LC-1 but I'm open to others that might be better. Thanks in advance for your response.

[ViennaHog]

I used the RB Racing model on my 107 FXST, very reliable and no issues whatsoever. Checked it during Dyno runs and it came out very accurate. 
Built a custom bracket that went with my 100 years handlebar clamp.

[ederdelyi]

>>I'm looking at RSR and Innovative LC-1<<

Two different animals with different capabilities. One uses a narrow band sensor and the other uses a wide band sensor. The LC-1 is (arguably) capable of more than the RSR, but is not designed as a permanent mount gauge for a MC ... unless they have changed things since the last time I looked. The RSR is a "no brainer" compared to the LC-1 as far as ease of use/installation, IMO. Longevity of the sensor is another factor, wideband sensors are more fragile and expensive than narrow band.

What's your goal? Monitor realtime cruise AFR or jetting your carb for best power/economy?

[able2222]

Thanks for the input. What I'm most interested in is getting my carb dialed in with the correct (or nearly so) air/fuel mix for street riding - nothing fancy, just good preformance and milage on a stage one engine. I'm assuming that the RB Racing RSR Air/Fuel Ratio Kit (with 4 wire O-Sensor) is a wide band sensor. I also assumed (I know what assuming will get you) that a wide band sensor would be easier to read on a gauge than a narrow band, less osillation...am I wrong on this?  Thanks again

[ederdelyi]

The RSR 4 wire sensor is still a narrow band sensor. It just has a heating element incorporated in it to get up to temperature quicker. IMO, for what you want to do the RSR is "adequate" and easier to deal with. It's well damped and the "on/off" nature of the narrow band sensor is not readily apparent to the user.

Roll the dice ... just kidding! Consider price, ease of mounting, and so on as opposed to a good dyno tune ... just saying.

[PanHeadRed]

able, I personally use the RSR and like it.

Regardless of which brand, model, narrow or wide, I recommend a gauge to EVERYONE who has a carb and intends to tune it them self. It's a real eye opener for a lot of them that think they got er tooned. 

[fuzznut5197]

I wanted data logging so I got a WEGOIII. I figured that there are some thing I want to check that will require me to look at the road and not stare at the gauge. (like looking for cops  ). Sampling rate is important.

[AllanW]

What PanHeadRed said 

[Sonny S.]

I wanted data logging so I got a WEGOIII. I figured that there are some thing I want to check that will require me to look at the road and not stare at the gauge. (like looking for cops  ). Sampling rate is important.

WEGO III   

[xzo124]

I also use the Wego III ,  top notch...xzo

[hotstick79]

What does it cost to get set up with one of these AFR monitors?

[hdpegscraper]

Ever look at one of these from Edelbrock?
http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?Ntt=EDL-6593&searchinresults=true&Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1&N=700+400065+302787+115&x=31&y=9

[xzo124]

I think I paid $350.00 or so for my Wego III....xzo

[mayor]

I just paid $360 shipped for a WEGO III off of Ebay. I don't think the WEGO is going to be the right meter for permanent mounting, if that's what the original poster had in mind. 

[Sonny S.]

I just paid $360 shipped for a WEGO III off of Ebay. I don't think the WEGO is going to be the right meter for permanent mounting, if that's what the original poster had in mind. 

Mayor is correct, but I would think twice about mounting one on the bike. Once the tuning is done, IMHO it is TMI for an everyday street bike.

[ederdelyi]

>>Mayor is correct, but I would think twice about mounting one on the bike. Once the tuning is done, IMHO it is TMI for an everyday street bike.<<

My thinking as well. The other units being mentioned here are fine, some "better" than others but most are overkill for a one time shot at dialing in a carb bike, IMO.

All depends on what one wants, in this case I'd opt for the minimum that would accomplish the task with the least amount of effort. If it will be a permanent mount, then the RSR or something along that line makes sense for several reasons ... JMHO.

[harleywood]

Ever look at one of these from Edelbrock?
http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?Ntt=EDL-6593&searchinresults=true&Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1&N=700+400065+302787+115&x=31&y=9

This one should be adequate, as well. Frankly, many of these other units, although very good units, don't do anything different than this Edelbrock unit. They're just charging extra for the motorcycle application.

[Dave*M]

Look at the sds mixture meter. It is around $200.00 and is very accurate.That is what I use on my bike and has worked for many years with no problems.

[Sonny S.]

Ever look at one of these from Edelbrock?
http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?Ntt=EDL-6593&searchinresults=true&Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1&N=700+400065+302787+115&x=31&y=9

This one should be adequate, as well. Frankly, many of these other units, although very good units, don't do anything different than this Edelbrock unit. They're just charging extra for the motorcycle application.

You may not know this but they are not all created equal, as the WEGO III uses a wideband sensor, it gives specific #'s and not just a colored light in the .5 range, and it is a data logger.
It doesn't cost more because of motorcycle applications because it is primarily designed for automotive use and racing.
Us motorcycle guy's just happen to realize the benifits of using one.

I chose the WEGO III because I own 2 carbed bike, and I do side work. This allows me to get multiple uses out of it instead of fixing an AFR meter to 1 bike. MY $300 gets spread over many bikes.....brings the cost down, and makes it a valuable " tool " .

[mayor]

I chose the WEGO III because I own 2 carbed bike, and I do side work. This allows me to get multiple uses out of it instead of fixing an AFR meter to 1 bike. MY $300 gets spread over many bikes.....brings the cost down, and makes it a valuable " tool " .

that's funny, I choose the WEGO III because some nut named Sonny recommended it over on the old site.  Actually, I choose it for the same reasons- multiple carb bikes, and set it and forget it.  I don't want to know my AFR all the time for the same reason I don't run an oil temp gauge.  I'm a firm believer in what I don't know, is less I need to worry about.   

[ederdelyi]

1. Carb'd bike
2. One time use
3. Adjustability of a carb and skill/knowledge level of user concerning same
4. If permanent mount, then a narrow band sensor is more robust and less expensive to replace when it fails.
5.Mounting and "real estate" required. How handy is the user and what facilities does he have at his disposal

Sometimes you need to crawl out of that "soft armor" that encases you and try to look at it from a perspective that does not include just your own needs and capabilities.

It's questionable that most out there would be able to achieve a "flat line" AFR with a carb given what they have to adjust them with. Most will not be capable of anything more than changing jets or needles. Having an instrument that will measure 0.1 or better varaiances in AFR doesn't mean much if the ability to adjust to that variance does not exist.

Yep, I'm FOS ... So, what? :>)

EDIT: Not directed at any one individual or post, merely a comment on the direction the thread appears to be heading.

[Sonny S.]

yup, depends on what you want. I guess being as I bought mine to be used as a tuning tool for multiple bikes, that made my decision go the way it did.

Ed, you know this but with an assortment of needles to try, the AFR can be steered in many directions. Of course not everyone has the tools or selection or parts to find this out. Also, if you throw in the ability to adjust the accelerator pump, and see actual results that gives you another advantage.
I found that an N65C has a very lean transition in to the main, and can actually cause a roll on ping. Where as the NOKK needle gives better MPG, and richens up going in to the main. Many just go with the N65C and then can't figure out why the bike pings. So then someone says...oh, you need a programmable ignition so you can remove timing. Yes, even though the ignition may be needed, you still need to make sure AFR is correct before you just randomly pull timing to eliminate a ping.

You're a smart guy ED, you know how it goes.

[ederdelyi]

>>You're a smart guy ED, you know how it goes.<<

A highly debatable and often contested opinion :>) I've been known to call myself a dumb $hit on more than one occasion.

Yep, most will not get to that level or even know what the options are. Drilling jets, emulsion tubes, air bleeds and so on are not in the average persons bag of tricks. EFI/electronic ignition and the tuning tools that are becoming available have opened up a realm that many never had access to in the days of carbs and distributors. Downside for some will be that they do have access to many things they may not fully undesrstand :>) 

[PanHeadRed]

>Having an instrument that will measure 0.1 or better varaiances in AFR doesn't mean much if the ability to adjust to that variance does not exist.<

I am sure the WEGO unit from DTT is a nice instrument for sure, but I have to agree with that. Wile the data logging feature seems nice I am not sure it would be a benefit for me, personally I don't care what the bike "did" I am concerned with what it is doing "now". I will admit to being in the dark about this particular unit, but I am not sure what the collected data would mean to me with out TP, and I am not sure what TP would mean with out RPM, and I am not sure what RPM would mean with out MPH, and I am not sure what MPH would mean with out TP.

I like the unit mounted for a few personal reasons:

1st. it's cool  great conversation starter.

2nd. I change components periodically and not having to remount the gage is handy (even though it's 1 screw, and 3 QD plugs).

3rd. I find it very educational to see how AFR's are affected by TP and how TP can change the AFR and maintain speed while riding.

4th. I'm a tard and entertain easily, flashing lights, big tits, you know, stuff like that.

NOW I have a question for you multi bike WEGO guys.

How many of you use the tail pipe sniffer? And for those of you who do, do you think the ability to tune within .1 is affected by the unit being in place? Does it affect the exhausting by .1?

If you don't use the TP sniffer what is different about taking the WEGO on and off vs the other instruments available?

If you do hook up the Tach, and MAP feature, is it even more complicated the a regular non data collecting unit?

[Evo160K]

Able2222,

Check the plan on this website:  http://www.dbbp.com/    >click to enter>tech tips>Air/Fuel gauge.

A bud used this plan to built a dual gauge for me to monitor both cylinders real time, simultaneously.  I'll try to attach a pic.  The parts cost less than $50 plus the 02 sensors and connectors.  I bought the parts from a local industrial electronics distributor.  I adjust each cylinder independently, my bike has an individual runner intake manifold.  With a normal "Y" intake manifold, you could just as easily toggle between the front and rear 02 sensors.  It's kinda neat to see what's happening at any moment.  The smallest twist of the throttle shows up instantly, start up an incline and the a/f ratio changes.  The only way to get a steady a/f reading to adjust from is on level ground holding steady throttle.  I get close with jets and plug chops, then I fine tune the a/f ratio with the a/f adjustment screws at cruising speed.  The closer I match the two cylinders, the smoother and stronger the bike runs.  I can adjust real time for power or economy.  With a carb it doesn't make much sense to adjust for an rpm you don't use very much, it's not like closed loop efi.  Another point to consider is you're really only concerned with being in the a/f sweet spot, other than you don't want to be too lean for a long sustained run.


[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[mayor]

NOW I have a question for you multi bike WEGO guys.

How many of you use the tail pipe sniffer? And for those of you who do, do you think the ability to tune within .1 is affected by the unit being in place? Does it affect the exhausting by .1?

If you don't use the TP sniffer what is different about taking the WEGO on and off vs the other instruments available?

If you do hook up the Tach, and MAP feature, is it even more complicated the a regular non data collecting unit?

well I haven't WEGO'd anything yet.    My WEGO is still sitting on the kitchen table.  I'm currently building a tail pipe sniffer set up, but I'm also going to be running O2 bungs on the head pipes of my TC's (both carb bikes). I hope to be able to comment on the comparison between headpipe and sniffer some time after the weather breaks.   If I followed (understood) the technical data published by the manufacturer correctly, exhaust design will affect the accuracy of a tail pipe measurement especially during certain throttle conditions (decel). 

[ederdelyi]

FWIW, I never had any good results with a tailpipe sniffer like Innovate or DTT shows. Most all HD's with an aftermarket cam with some overlap when combined with an aftermarket exhaust pull too much air in and it skews the readings. The sensor in the bungs placed close to the port will give the best results, IMHO and IME. Try it for yourself, you may have better luck than I did. I just got tired of F'n with the thing and getting questionable results.

[crazycalvin]

Able2222,

Check the plan on this website:  http://www.dbbp.com/    >click to enter>tech tips>Air/Fuel gauge.

A bud used this plan to built a dual gauge for me to monitor both cylinders real time, simultaneously.  I'll try to attach a pic.  The parts cost less than $50 plus the 02 sensors and connectors.  I bought the parts from a local industrial electronics distributor.  I adjust each cylinder independently, my bike has an individual runner intake manifold.  With a normal "Y" intake manifold, you could just as easily toggle between the front and rear 02 sensors.  It's kinda neat to see what's happening at any moment.  The smallest twist of the throttle shows up instantly, start up an incline and the a/f ratio changes.  The only way to get a steady a/f reading to adjust from is on level ground holding steady throttle.  I get close with jets and plug chops, then I fine tune the a/f ratio with the a/f adjustment screws at cruising speed.  The closer I match the two cylinders, the smoother and stronger the bike runs.  I can adjust real time for power or economy.  With a carb it doesn't make much sense to adjust for an rpm you don't use very much, it's not like closed loop efi.  Another point to consider is you're really only concerned with being in the a/f sweet spot, other than you don't want to be too lean for a long sustained run.

I was looking at that design at work on Thursday night.  What kind of O2 sensors did you use?  Thanks, Calvin.

[Sonny S.]

As for the sniffer..... what are the dyno tuner's using that is so different ?

[ederdelyi]

Dyno sniffer is most commonly a long tube that gets shoved up the pipe as close to the port as they can get it to reduce reversion and interaction with the other cylinder. Damn near impossible to do an individual cylinder map on a motor with an odd fire setup like the HD unless you do that.

PM Bob ... Oh, wait ... he's back :>)

I made a similar setup for 4 and 5 gas meters for the same reason.

[Jeffd]

http://www.knfilters.com/airfuelmonitors.htm

[Jeffd]

http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?searchinresults=false&Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1&Ntt=85-2441

seems cheap enough

[Sonny S.]

Dyno sniffer is most commonly a long tube that gets shoved up the pipe as close to the port as they can get it to reduce reversion and interaction with the other cylinder. Damn near impossible to do an individual cylinder map on a motor with an odd fire setup like the HD unless you do that.

That's what mine is. I made a long one to use on dresser's and a shorter one for all others.

[Sonny S.]

Jeff,

IMHO the K&N is not as good as the RSR. Not enough indication between 12-14:1, and that is the area that we are trying to tune.

[ederdelyi]

>>That's what mine is. I made a long one to use on dresser's and a shorter one for all others. <<

I believe that mayor was referring to the "clip on" sniffer (as was I) that just samples the exhaust near the end of the pipe. I never had any luck trying to get one of those to give meaningful readings on a HD exhaust. I got  it to work on cars and trucks. Nice idea if all you want is the average reading. I went to bungs on individual cyls on the cars and trucks for the "serious" stuff. Make each cylinder as even as possible ... neat stuff that one could not easily do prior to the advent of electronic engine management systems.

EDIT: Clip on as in "automotive sniffer" as shown on the Wego III web page. FWIW, I still prefer the bungs if at all possible, especially if one is road tuning and not using a dyno.

[Evo160K]

Crazycalvin,
One is a Harley the other is an Airtex, both are two-wire, both work fine.  I verified the gauge and system using cheap sensors from the junk yard, about $6 each, before I invested in new sensors and permanent wiring.  Believe me the cheap ones worked well.

If I were doing it again and didn't want to build a meter, I would go with the Edlebrock meter referenced above.  It's very reasonable and has everything you need.  Like I said, if you want to monitor both cylinders, you can buy a second 02 sensor and toggle switch between them using one meter and two 02 sensors.

Frankly, I'm not so sure accuracy with respect to a test gas is that critical.  As long as the sensor gives repeatable readings, you adjust for the best running engine for that rpm.  You know from experience when your engine sounds and feels happy.  For a carbed bike I wouldn't invest a lot of money.

[fuzznut5197]

I think I got the logger so I can post runs here and ask experienced people why the h*ll my engine is doing this...

[Evo160K]

Well fuzznut, as I've never seen one of these charts in my life, I'll take a swing at it, and you should know I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.  It looks to me like you're accelerating slowly through a gear, maybe first, you shift slowly to second after which you're moving along smoothly for 3-1/2 seconds when you quickly open your throttle (about 717.25 seconds at 3000 rpm), your accelerator pumps shoots raw fuel causing the a/f ratio to momentarily go rich at 717.4 after which your engine rpm quickly jumps to 6200-6300 rpm and since fuel is heavier than air and slower to move, the lean air rushes ahead of the fuel into the engine causing the a/f reading to go very lean, 19.5:1.  Then you throttle back and your a/f returns to 11:1.  I hope that was the question.

Now perhaps we can hear from someone who really knows.

[ederdelyi]

>>I think I got the logger so I can post runs here and ask experienced people why the h*ll my engine is doing this... <<

Sniffer or bungs? It sure looks like you are pulling air into the system from the plot.
If it's a sniffer it may not be long enough. If bungs they may be too far from the port(s). Open exhaust and cams with lots of overlap can be problematic.

EDIT: Also, consider this:

"Other things to keep in mind to ensure proper sensor function and longevity are exhaust back pressure, rich mixtures, and under/over heating.

A high exhaust backpressure forces more exhaust into the sensors pump cell which can cause an air fuel ratio meter to read richer than what the engines really running. Turbo engines run a relatively high amount of backpressure in the exhaust manifold before the turbine, making them a poor place to locate the sensor. 

Missfires due to a malfunctioning or underpowered ignition or an extremely rich mixture can cause false lean readings because unburned liquid fuel in droplets block the small hole leading to the sensors pump cell.

A wideband sensor should not be placed in the exhaust stream and left unheated. The hole to the pump cell can quickly become clogged and contaminated by exhaust byproducts, especially during a start cycle from a cold engine. The sensor can also be damaged by exposing it to temperatures above 700 degrees C, like those typically before the turbine in turbo engines. You never want to place a sensor there anyway due to the aforementioned issues with sensor accuracy and backpressure. Lastly you don't want to place the sensor so far away from the engine that its 10 watt internal heater cannot keep the sensor hot enough."

Excerpt from a AFR meter shootout --- I'd have to go back and get the URL and I'm too damn lazy!

[ederdelyi]

The trend is there for both mild and hard acceleration, more pronounced on the hard run. It's likely either reversion or an over rich condition that is giving a false lean reading. O2 sensors can be funny little beasts, they don't always do what you would expect. A fouled sensor can produce a reading that is off by .3 - .5 AFR or more and some meters will not be able to either tell you the sensor has a problem or be able to calibrate for an aging sensor. AFR meters are not all created equal.

First rule of data acquisition and test ... Question what you see, it may be bogus.

[Sonny S.]

Fuzznut,

Any chance you hit the rev limiter at that point ?
The only time I've seen a chart where there is a lean stall like that was when the ignition was killed or a bad sensor as Ed had commented on.

I deleted my earlier post because at low steady rpm's everything looks fine.

[mayor]

>>That's what mine is. I made a long one to use on dresser's and a shorter one for all others. <<

I believe that mayor was referring to the "clip on" sniffer (as was I) that just samples the exhaust near the end of the pipe.

I guess I should have been more specific.  I'm making one with a long sampling tube as well.  I'm making one similar to what Sonny is referring too (...very similar, since I'm using his pattern to make mine  ).  I wouldn't even try one at the end of a tail pipe, I just think there would be too much interferrence with outside air.

edited to show pic of components being used for the sniffer pipe I'm building:


more to follow once I finish the project..

[ederdelyi]

Look at the short accel/RPM increase in the 712 - 714 sec time range ... see the trend? Not as pronounced, and obviously less throttle was used.

[ederdelyi]

mayor,
Actually the "confusion" was likely more on my side ... when most folks say "clip on sniffer" I automatically think of the "easy" one that most will go for. Mia Culpa :>)

[Sonny S.]

Look at the short accel/RPM increase in the 712 - 714 sec time range ... see the trend? Not as pronounced, and obviously less throttle was used.

I believe that is a shift point where he let off the throttle.

[ederdelyi]

Maybe, kinda looks like a single gear run to me ... been wrong before, won't be the first or last time :>)

[Sonny S.]

Maybe he was sitting still and revving the throttle ? 

Fuzznut, will you get in here and tell us what's going on 

[Sonny S.]

similar set up as Mayor's .... interchangable probes.
Although I see he forgot the drywall screws.... 

[ederdelyi]

>>Maybe he was sitting still and revving the throttle ? <<

Dunno, about 2.5 sec from ~2000 RPM to ~6000 RPM and roughly the same for decel ...


The main thing I didn't like about the long sniffers was response time and having the dang thing hanging out of the pipe on the road. I'll go the bung route if I have the choice, but sometimes ya just gotta do what ya gotta do.

[mayor]

The main thing I didn't like about the long sniffers was response time and having the dang thing hanging out of the pipe on the road. I'll go the bung route if I have the choice, but sometimes ya just gotta do what ya gotta do.

I agree, both my TC's will have bungs on the head pipes.  I'm building the sniffer pipe for when I'm messing with bikes without the bungs. I've got a sporty with chrome pipe but without heat shields, so I didn't want to weld on those head pipes. 

[fuzznut5197]

Fuzznut, will you get in here and tell us what's going on 

Sheesh, it's Sunday, I'm allowed to sleep late!   

I don't want to litter this thread with a million afr graphs, so give me a couple of hours to upload at my image dump site, and list all the details. AFAIK, the problem is still unresolved.

[mayor]

I don't want to litter this thread with a million afr graphs, so give me a couple of hours to upload at my image dump site, and list all the details. AFAIK, the problem is still unresolved.

Fuzz, you could always start a new thread in the AFR section...

[Sonny S.]

The main thing I didn't like about the long sniffers was response time and having the dang thing hanging out of the pipe on the road. I'll go the bung route if I have the choice, but sometimes ya just gotta do what ya gotta do.

I agree, both my TC's will have bungs on the head pipes.  I'm building the sniffer pipe for when I'm messing with bikes without the bungs. I've got a sporty with chrome pipe but without heat shields, so I didn't want to weld on those head pipes. 

I have not used the sniffer yet so I have no experience with it. Made one for pipes without bungs.

[Admiral Akbar]

So you made your own sniffer..  Got a pic? Max

[Sonny S.]

Max,

see post #47

http://www.daytona-sensors.com/download/WEGO_Motorcycle_Sniffer_Tech_Note.pdf

[Admiral Akbar]

Thanks,

been using the "new" button discussion titles and it musta skipped over the pics..    my pet peeve is not reading the previous posts..    Max

[PanHeadRed]

>A bud used this plan....built a dual gauge.... less than $50<


EVO, that's way cool  Your post sounds like the conversation I had with mayor. I said "I don't care if the build one from a Heathkit.


>It's kinda neat to see what's happening at any moment.  The smallest twist of the throttle shows up instantly, start up an incline and the a/f ratio changes.<

I agree, the last time I tooned my bike was in July/August as a result of an exhaust change, at the time it was a little on the rich side, last night riding home I had to pull the enrichment cable to get any lights lit.

[ederdelyi]

>>I don't care if the build one from a Heathkit.<<

Hey now! For the price, some of their stuff wasn't all that bad! :>)

[PanHeadRed]

Sonny, I think a concern for the people looking to get "budget" units is construction. Some of the less expensive automobile units, may not be weather proofed or durable enough to hang out on MC handle bars.

Like I discussed with mayor, I bought mine for the duribility, you guys got yours for the sophistication and versitility. IMO a fella can't go wrong with ANY unit for what ever the reasons.

[PanHeadRed]

Ed I was not knocking it, I was merely emphasizing my point of how necessary I think they are for guys trying to tune their own bikes. If I would have known I could build one (OR TWO) for $50.00, guess which one (OR TWO) would be on my bike?

No Googling or peeking at you drawers allowed.

[ederdelyi]

>>IMO a fella can't go wrong with ANY unit for what ever the reasons.<<

True dat. I'll admit it, I actually built a couple of the DIY meters, one narrow, and one wide band just to satisfy my curiosity. Sure, they didn't have the bells and whistles of the higher end stuff but they did measure the O2 content with reasonable results. Red herrings can happen with low and high end stuff, the high end stuff often just adds to the confusion factor!

EDIT: Our posts crossed. I know you weren't, I usually know when you are actually not "impressed" with something. :>)

[Sonny S.]

Sonny, I think a concern for the people looking to get "budget" units is construction. Some of the less expensive automobile units, may not be weather proofed or durable enough to hang out on MC handle bars.

OK, I don't recall recommending an automotobile unit so I'll just agree with you 

[PanHeadRed]

You did'nt, I was refering to your post #33 to Jeff and was posting an opinion for the sake of the conversation.

[Sonny S.]

  

[PanHeadRed]

I was wondering if it would be worth while to start a AFR gauge thread over in the AFR section, having people post their experiences and why they chose the model/brand they did, how they like it, and what they would do different if they were to do it over. With real world experience it might help those who are finding it hard to choose one over the other.

[Sonny S.]

good idea ...
Fire it up   

[hdpegscraper]

I had brought up an automotive one, and yes water was a concern. Where an how this one is mounted hasnt posed a problem yet, be it washing, or raining on, parked or moving. But this might not work on all bikes.

[mayor]

I was wondering if it would be worth while to start a AFR gauge thread over in the AFR section, having people post their experiences and why they chose the model/brand they did, how they like it, and what they would do different if they were to do it over. With real world experience it might help those who are finding it hard to choose one over the other.

there's already some good stuff on this thread, whatch'a think about having it moved it over to the AFR section?

I still haven't WEGO'd anything, but I'm getting closer.  Here's an update on my pipe sniffer:

I used a 1/2" pipe T, 3/8" pipe reducers, and compression fittings which are then connected to 1/4" soft copper pipe.  I used a 3/8" reducer on the top, soldered it in place, drilled the hole out to 5/8", tapped it with a 18mm tap, then sanded it down a fuzz to make sure the O2 sensor tip was completely visible in the chamber. 

here's a demo pic on the bike:

I don't have the mount figured out yet, but I think I'm going to make a bracket that mounts off of the muffler bracket.  I was kinda surprised how far up the pipe the sniffer tube would go.  I think that I was just about up to the exhaust port.    

[fuzznut5197]

I used a 3/8" reducer on the top, soldered it in place,

Lead-free, right? I'm just saying, as I know I'm not the only one with old 60/40 laying around.

Looks great!

[mayor]

good question Fuzz, I'm not sure.     what's the risk if it is?  I'll go out and check...

[fuzznut5197]

Lead kills the sensor.

[mayor]

well Fuzz, you're not the only one still using solder with lead....mine's a 50/50 blend.    looks like I'm building another "T", the worst thing is this was "T" number 2, the first one went to the scrap pile due to the hole drilling process.    

[Evo160K]

Mayor,
As a brief aside, what's the white plug in the 4-place connector (I assume it's a weather seal) and where did you get it?

[mayor]

Mayor,
As a brief aside, what's the white plug in the 4-place connector (I assume it's a weather seal) and where did you get it?

Sorry, can't help you on that one.  I didn't make the O2 sensor set up.  The O2 sensor set up was how it came from DTT, the plug is a 6 pin and the O2 is a 5 wire. 

[Sonny S.]

well Fuzz, you're not the only one still using solder with lead....mine's a 50/50 blend.    looks like I'm building another "T", the worst thing is this was "T" number 2, the first one went to the scrap pile due to the hole drilling process.    

remove the solder from that one

[fuzznut5197]

Mayor, don't tear up your sniffer just yet. I'm trying to find where I read that a sniffer shouldn't have lead joints, but can't confirm yet. 50/50 melts at 400F, I don't know how hot a sniffer will get.

[harleytoprock]

To those guys that weld on bungs to the exhaust;
Do you weld the bung on the back side of the pipe  or on a more accessible area that requires removing the heat shield? I hope this question makes sense and doesn't sound too dum.

[mayor]

To those guys that weld on bungs to the exhaust;
Do you weld the bung on the back side of the pipe  or on a more accessible area that requires removing the heat shield? I hope this question makes sense and doesn't sound too dum.

my plans are to weld on the back side like the factory bungs.  I'm actually putting factory take off '07 head pipes on one of my '02 dynas.   

[Evo160K]

Since I planned to use Harley 02 sensors, I thought it would be best to put them exactly where Harley puts them, in addition they're pretty much hidden, but easily accessible.

[mayor]

Mayor, don't tear up your sniffer just yet. I'm trying to find where I read that a sniffer shouldn't have lead joints, but can't confirm yet. 50/50 melts at 400F, I don't know how hot a sniffer will get.

keep me updated.  I'm not sure how much of an issue it would be anyway.  I used flux on the threads, then threaded in as much as I could (just about bottom of ring), then soldered the connection. There's probably very little if any solder that made it past the threads. 

[hdpegscraper]

I just had to trim the heat shield slightly- '01 Dyna SE 2-1 exhaust

[Evo160K]

I also used factory takeoff headers.

[PanHeadRed]

I highly recommend one for everyone who is attempting to tune their own bike. Here is an opportunity for those of us who have and use them to share our opinions, the pro's and cons of the instruments we have, and why we selected the one we did.   

I use the RSR for it's durability (water, weather) it's ease of installation, and use. I have it permanently mounted, it's simple, accurate, and easy to use.

[PanHeadRed]

>Fire it up<

Done.

http://harleytechtalk.net/htt/index.php?topic=5848.0

[fuzznut5197]

keep me updated.  I'm not sure how much of an issue it would be anyway.  I used flux on the threads, then threaded in as much as I could (just about bottom of ring), then soldered the connection. There's probably very little if any solder that made it past the threads. 

I can't find where I read it. It was someone's personal opinion, and there are no cautions from any other sources, so I would say you're good to go. 

RE: my afr stuff, I'm bizzy, and will put the full story in afr zone, but for now here's the rear cyl:

[Sonny S.]

this whole thread should be moved to AFR, and .....maybe even made a sticky ?

lotta good info here, might as well keep it easy to find

[mayor]

well, since this thread is about meters.......here's my newly acquired WEGO:

...and here's the wiring mess that comes with it:

The WEGO has the wide band sensor which allows the user to use a pipe sniffer. 

....still haven't WEGO'd anything yet.....

[fuzznut5197]

Fuzz, you could always start a new thread in the AFR section...

Done

[cwo]

I bought one of the Edelbrock units, picked up a front pipe off E-bay for cheap which I brought to a muffler shop and had them weld the bung in place and was good to go.  I ride a FLHT without a radio so I installed the meter in the rear of the "glovebox" opening.  Not always trusting that the calibration of the unit was on mark, I used a smooth idle mixture reading as my base.   It appears to read a bit rich - the bike runs best, plugs look best, idles best when jetted to at 13:1.  Planning to get a comparison reading this spring so I validate its accuracy - CWO

2005 FLHT

HD Oil Press Gauge
Wally's Oil Temp Gauge
95" KB 9.25 pistons (0.30 over) 9.7:1 static with milling
Big Boyz heads (83cc)
Cometic .030 Head Gasket
Andrews 26g cams
185-190psi ccp
HD SE Billet camplate and pump
LMR pressure spring
Mikuni 42 carb (22.5 pilot/160 main/50 accel/98 needle)
Daytona Twin Tec Ignition Module
Fullsac Duals
Wild Pig mufflers with Rush 2 1/2 inch baffles
Easy Clutch ramp
SE HD Clutch Spring
Hayden M-6 Auto Primary Chain Tensioner
Compu-fire 1084 starter gear
All-Balls starter clutch
Shimmed compensator nut
Throttle-Up stabilizer
Mustang Solo Seat w/Backrest
Edelbrock 6593 AFR Gauge
Floating Front Rotors
HD push button fuel cap release
Spotlights wired independent of Hi/Lo Beams
Extended shifter

[PanHeadRed]

Rumor has it, 13.2 is the sweet spot. I imagine 13.1 is close enough.

[mayor]

Rumor has it, 13.2 is the sweet spot. I imagine 13.1 is close enough.

just a rumor, don't forget you can't believe everything you read on the internet.   

[PanHeadRed]

!ROFLMAO!

Good one.

[sportygordy]

Crazycalvin,
One is a Harley the other is an Airtex, both are two-wire, both work fine.  I verified the gauge and system using cheap sensors from the junk yard, about $6 each, before I invested in new sensors and permanent wiring.  Believe me the cheap ones worked well.

If I were doing it again and didn't want to build a meter, I would go with the Edlebrock meter referenced above.  It's very reasonable and has everything you need.  Like I said, if you want to monitor both cylinders, you can buy a second 02 sensor and toggle switch between them using one meter and two 02 sensors.

Frankly, I'm not so sure accuracy with respect to a test gas is that critical.  As long as the sensor gives repeatable readings, you adjust for the best running engine for that rpm.  You know from experience when your engine sounds and feels happy.  For a carbed bike I wouldn't invest a lot of money.

Correct me if i am wrong but it's my understanding that the sensors require constant voltage to the heaters to prolong their life. So if you switch between two sensors to meter one then it is necessary to make sure you wire the switch in a way that the sensor heater is always energized.

[Evo160K]

Sportgordy,
That's probably correct because according to Edlebrock the sensors do have an internal heater, they're three-wire.  The Harley and Airtex sensors I'm using are two-wire and don't have an internal heater, so I'm confident toggling between two unheated sensors is fine.

[sportygordy]

Sportgordy,
That's probably correct because according to Edlebrock the sensors do have an internal heater, they're three-wire.  The Harley and Airtex sensors I'm using are two-wire and don't have an internal heater, so I'm confident toggling between two unheated sensors is fine.

Evo160K
I thought i would mention as i was not sure myself. I did spend some time reading tech bulletions over at DTT and learned the wide bands do indeed have heaters which needs a constant voltage. I'm not familiar with Harley and Airtex sensors but it sounds like you have a handle on them and your good to go . I am curious how your meter works out. I'm thinking of doing something similar, but in my case, i would like to find a dual (round) meter, one that would fit in my fairing to replace the existing outside temp. Good luck with your install, again lets us know how it worked out

[Evo160K]

Sportgordy,

RSR has a nice looking, round, dual gauge about a third of the way down this site: 
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/rsrgauge.htm

My meter works well, I'm very satisfied with it, particularly since it cost so little.  I installed it in August and spent a week riding in Colorado.  I have an individual runner, intake manifold, so I'm able to tune each cylinder individually.  I can tune for power or economy.  I got 43-53 mpg packing double with luggage, 57 riding solo on one leg.  Both sensors are narrow band, but if you think about it, you're really only interested in being in a narrow a/f band.  Anything outside, either way, and you adjust to get back into the narrow band.  It takes longer to get to operating temperature, I'm told, than heated sensors, but it's not an issue.  After all, Harley uses narrow band sensors with their EFI.  Let me know if I can assist in any way.  Good luck. 

[crazycalvin]

First off: Evo thanks for the reply that you posted way back when in this thread to the question  that I asked you.  Second:  This is a very interesting thread to me.  I made up my sniffer with a tube Friday night at work.  I am now acquiring all the electronic "giblets" to build my own meter.  It has been a long time since I have bought electronic components; the place I always bought my electronic components before has gone out of business.  So I figure what the heck, I will go to Radio Shack and see what they have.  The guys in there ask if they can help me and I say "Yes, do you sell electronic components?" and they say "Of course we do!"  I asked for a L.E.D. bar graph and a LM3914 or R.S. equivalent and they both looked at me like monkeys doing a math problem!  I had the rest of the parts hanging around.  I'll let everyone know how it turns out after I get it built.  Keep it going.  Later, Calvin.

[Evo160K]

Crazycalvin,
You're very welcome.  I bought my parts from one of the local industrial electronics distributors, much less than the usual retail sources.  May I ask, why are you using a sniffer if you're using a meter?  Are you planning to use it on bikes without 02 sensors?

[crazycalvin]

Evo, my bike is '06 Deuce.  I do not have bungs welded to my pipes, nor do I plan on welding them into my pipes.  I just am experimenting right now.  I wanted to build a sniffer to put up the pipe of the bike and then an indicating device (the meter itself) to indicate what the sniffer might be seeing.  All in all, my bike runs pretty good, averages 40 to 43 mpg, plugs look good, no pinging, and starts well.  I used a SEST to get me to the point I am at now.  So I figured I would experiment and see what happens.  I figure if I make an error, I can load in the previous map saved ( I am anal about only making one change at a time, noting the change, and saving the file with new revision number).

[Evo160K]

Crazycalvin,
Well that certainly makes sense.  As a fun experiment, you might pick up a set of late model head pipes with the 02 bungs from a late model deuce (others may fit).  I suspect your dealer has whole sets of takeoffs laying around you could get cheap or, as in my case, for nothing.  Might even find some in the htt swap section.

[crazycalvin]

Evo, thanks for the head pipe tip.  I might look into that.  Currently, I run V&H BSS but still have my complete factory exhaust system.

[kansasroadking]

could you use a 1 wire o2 sensor and temporarily hook up a volt meter to it for tuning? isn't that really what these gauges really are anyway..... fancy volt meters that convert .0-1.0 volts into afr #'s?

[crazycalvin]

could you use a 1 wire o2 sensor and temporarily hook up a volt meter to it for tuning? isn't that really what these gauges really are anyway..... fancy volt meters that convert .0-1.0 volts into afr #'s?

You are correct about the fancy voltmeter; actually it is more like a milliVolt meter with fancy calibration resistors.  You could take the output of an o2 sensor and read it with a voltmeter.  The problem with a voltmeter is that if you were riding the bike and watching the voltmeter at the same time, it might be difficult to interpret the numerical value were as a LED display would be a little easier for you to process.  Unless the o2 sensor is mounted near the exhaust port, you might want to use a four wire o2 sensor two wires are for the heater and two wires are for the o2 sensor output.

[Evo160K]

Kansasroadking,

Like Crazycalvin said, you're correct.  That's how I verified the O2 sensors were working that I picked up at the junk yard.  As you would expect, at idle you can screw the a/f adjustment screw out or in and watch the milliamps on your ampmeter go up or down. 

The meter on the plan goes from 0 milliamps (no LEDs) to 1000 milliamps (10 LEDs).  It turned out each LED represented 100 +/- milliamps, again as you would expect.

[N-gin]

So how did everything workout Mayor?

[mayor]

I didn't end up using the pig tail apparatus that I made for the o2 sensor.  I ended up putting '07 and up head pipes on both my carb Dyna's, so I could mount o2 sensors right at the port.  Once I did that, haven't had much need to try my pig tail set up.