PCIII or Harley Race Tuner??

[fxrp]

.  .  .  but to argue with you will not enlighten you just enrage you, .  .  .

My response to that would be 'physician heal thyself.'

[Steve Cole]

A true wide band sensor that will measure from free air to 25.5 :1 runs about $750 - $950 each. The one that TM, DJ and everyone else uses is from a Honda, Cadillac and some other cars and run about $85. Now does anyone really think the cost is that far apart because the cheap one will do the job? If you do I've got some beach front property in Yuma, AZ for you.

[road-dawgs1]

Not to hijack, but Steve when I can send my SERT in for you to upgrade??

[fxrp]

"you do know why HD went with the 1976 unheated Bosch sensor don't you?"

I don't know.. PLEASE enlighten.. 

They're damn cheap.

Not trying to start anything here but you are simply wrong, but to argue with you will not enlighten you just enrage you, so I for one will step out of this before I say something you might take in the wrong spirit. But some advice would be to do a bit more research before making statements that are categorically incorrect.
I'm out,
Bob
PS - Ever counted the wires on a HD sensor. What are the 2 extras for?

"PS - Ever counted the wires on a HD sensor. What are the 2 extras for?'

I give up...  Uncle, uncle, uncle...

Bob,
Once again you speak off the cuff without any functional knowledge. I would suggest you do your own research 'before making statements that are' flat out wrong. I could have simply replied that you were wrong but then you would have started bold, italics, larger font sizes, etc insisting that I was totally inexperienced, never worked on a bike, and just spewing heresay, word of mouth, and promotional material. Well I would say that anyone who has ever installed a Power Commander and installed the O2 eliminators knows that the HD sensors are 2-wire. So how come you don't?

I'm not here to argue with you because it never does any good, all you ever do is become insulting and accusing the other of being a newbie that knows nothing. So I went to my shop this AM after my last post. Yes I own my own shop and Saturday AMs I close out the register for the week. This morning I also took pictures of the OEM Bosch 2-wire sensors and the Bosch 5-wire sensors used by TMax, after all a picture is worth a thousand words. As you can see the OEMs are 2 wires, Blue and Grey w/Black tracer, the Bosch wide band has 5 wires, Black, Grey, Red, White, and Yellow.

Paul

PS - Ever counted the wires on a HD sensor.


[edit] BTW those OEM sensors came out of a 2007 Softail I did a Stage III BB w/aThunderMax on.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Bakon]

Just following along..... as I am happy with my 06 with SERT which was dynoed and runs fine everywhere.... but what about the Zippers Thundermax, self adjusting and all...   Just reading along to keep up with what's new with the o2 sensors and such....From reading things it would seem a very happy piece to work with if it tunes as you go with just changes in a base map after a modiification.   Looking at the future possibility for a new bike/buildis my only interest


PS If I was to start over I would pull the stock motor, crate it, install a Jims 120 and smile. Plus have some money left over. (HTCC build which I am happy with but it wasn't cheap to make right)

[fxrp]

A true wide band sensor that will measure from free air to 25.5 :1 runs about $750 - $950 each. The one that TM, DJ and everyone else uses is from a Honda, Cadillac and some other cars and run about $85. Now does anyone really think the cost is that far apart because the cheap one will do the job? If you do I've got some beach front property in Yuma, AZ for you.

OK the Bosch wide band doesn't read to straight gas but it reads wide enough 9.0:1 to pure air for $79.99. Works for me.

Paul


Wideband O2 Sensor Only (Bosch LSU 4.2)
As air-fuel mixtures and fuel efficiency become more critical, wideband oxygen sensors are gradually replacing the original single-wire oxygen sensor. Single-wire sensors act as an on-off switch, using an abrupt change in voltage to signal a rich or lean mixture. The Bosch LSU 4.2 Wideband oxygen sensor gives a more linear response, accurately measuring mixtures as rich as 9.0:1 and as lean as pure air.

[iclick]

Makes no difference how you flip it. Crappy gas is crappy gas and there is no system that can make it good gas. Engines like good quality fuel and no add-on or replacement system has the ability to change that, at least not that I know of.
Some of the more sofisticated sytems like the Delphi management system is a bit more forgiving but cannot change the quality of fuel.
Bob

If that's a given, perhaps the gas quality (octane, % ethanol, etc.) should not even be factored when considering EFI controllers.

[iclick]

"you do know why HD went with the 1976 unheated Bosch sensor don't you?"

I don't know.. PLEASE enlighten.. 

They're damn cheap.

They're "damn cheap" and sufficient to achieve EPA certification, which is all they were installed for in the first place.

[iclick]

That said, the Power Commander does a great job of getting a bike to run fine, just give up a few mpg on '07 bikes with closed loop EFI, however the new PCV looks to be a viable solution to retaining the superior Delphi system and retaining the closed loop feature but that will need to play out for a bit longer as it is a new approach and has not been on the market long enough to make a proper judgement on my part. I have tuner a couple bikes with the PCV and so far like it but have not done one in closed loop....yet.

The PCV with optional Auto-Tune modules give great flexibility in tuning without a dyno, but I won't go into the details here.  I do think most people reading this thread have not researched this device and don't appreciate its functionality.  I'm not criticizing anyone because it has only been on the market for about a month and few have had the chance to install and test it.

As for decreasing gas mileage with the PC over stock closed-loop, this isn't the case if you tune lean in the cruise range.  If you tune for performance at WOT, which I think is proper, you will lose some mileage if you twist the throttle frequently--but if you want the power you obviously must provide the resource to achieve it, and that means more fuel.  The PC is no more gas-hungry than stock or any other controller.  It meters the fuel based on your specifications, period.  I ran a PCIII for two years and got up to 50mpg (cruising the backroads) with AFR's set around stoich, and I don't think even a stock bike could do any better.  If you tune for better cooling you will probably be lowering AFR's, and that means more fuel and lower mileage. lt's a classic trade-off, but you have the ability to decide.  I just wish I could get city mileage up above 40mpg, but I fear that is impossible on this bike.

[iclick]

OK. Bob and Steve and the rest of the engine management pros . What is going to provide the best engine management provided all tuning devices/downloads were dyno tuned for the individual bike with 02 sensors?
Harley tuner, pc, or the TTS or any of the others that are out there ? 

I'm not an engine-management pro although I've researched and tinkered the subject enough to be called a "jackleg."   I'll pipe in anyway having experience with the PCIII and PCV with and without Auto-Tune.  I see it this way:

1.  At <$300 the PCV alone with a good canned map (e.g. Fuel Moto) I would argue to be the best bang-for-the-buck option for most riders.  It can be fine-tuned by the user with or without a dyno if desired.  The PCV alone works in open-loop mode and the stock O2 sensor connectors must be plugged with the provided terminals.

2.  TTS and SEST are both dependent on the stock narrow-band O2 sensors and can achieve a good tune given a competent tuner.  They will not tune in closed-loop mode beyond the capabilities of these sensors, which is about idle thru 3K and 0-50% TP (approx.).  These software packages with a dyno tune will cost over 2X that of a PCV alone since canned maps are not nearly as plentiful as for the PCV.  Whether this results in a better tune is moot and depends greatly on the competence of the tuner.

3.  PCV with Auto-Tune may be the state-of-the-art in EFI controllers at this time.  I won't belabor listing the benefits of this option, which are available on the PC and Fuel Moto sites.  These optional modules (one for each cylinder) connect to the PCV via two wide-band O2 sensors that provide tunability throughout the RPM/TP range.   It will also allow offsets for speed, gear, temperature, manifold pressure and other variables--as well as a table for each cylinder for ignition timing and AFR's.  A powerful option is to add a switch that allows you to toggle on the fly between two maps (PCV alone) or the base map and auto-tune mode (PCV-AT).  The optional LCD display allows you to toggle between many maps stored on an SD card, as well as being able to display vital functions in real time like TP, RPM, duty cycle, head temperature, base-map value, trim, AFR, etc.

4.  T-Max is not available for newer bikes yet (is it?) and has limitations like no knock-sensing and a very high price.  It also is able to utitize only a portion of the stock MAP sensor's functionality.

I know some will disagree with the above, but if that happens refer to the part above that says "as I see it."

[Steve Cole]

fxrp

You need to dig deeper as your statements are not true. Most all vehicles that use the sensor you talk about still have the switching style sensors as well. Why pray tell do you think they do that since we all know how cheap the car makers are? Also while you go digging look at the specifications on that very sensor from Bosch for it's accuracy over the broad temperature operating range and its complete AFR range. I've been using these very sensor and can say without a doubt they will not cut the mustard for the necessary life span. That's why we use the real wide band sensors that cost the big bucks! I would love to not have to spend the money but until they get the cheap units to do the job correctly I will use the proper test equipment in development. DynoJet has figured it out and that is just why they offer a calibration kit for there dyno sensors now which is the same exact sensor! When the sensor goes out of specification it gets replaced, not because it quit working but because it is no longer accurate. There is no adjusting it. From our own testing we find the sensors to last in a motorcycle environment about 60 - 100 hours of use. The most common failure mode is that the sensor reads wrong by greater than 1 AFR! Now is that a good tune in your book? So if you do not plan to ride your bike any more than this great but if you do you better have a few extra sensors.

Now as to how well one can tune with the factory switching sensors we can handle idle to 5000 RPM and 20 kPa to 80kPa just fine. Now stop and think about how you ride and you will find that covers over 95% of your entire riding range. Since we can tune that area we can also know what needs to be in the few remaining areas. It has been proven time and time again Mastertune can and does tune to within a few HP of what a dyno operator with a dyno can get! Now that only runs an owner $425 + cables ($35 - 80)and some of there time which most like to do anyways for the late model HD bikes. There is a library of base calibrations to start with and since it will tune for you thaat's all you need. What's the cost of a PC-V with autotune modules as you need two of them and that is extra? From what I've heard it's over $850 for the setup and then you need to tune just as you do with Mastertune.

[fxrp]

Steve,

Sorry but I couldn't disagree with you more and you'ld get the same disagreement from DTT, Zipper's, and Power Comander as well. I put about 10k/year on my bike and it runs as good as it ever has and it has the original sensors in it. You can diagnose a sensor with the TMax. I had a customer's bike (SE 110") that got poor mileage and kept kicking out of closed loop. The sensor tested bad which led me to a cut wire  in the rear sensor harness. Repaired the cut wire and both front and rear sensors tested fine and they had been in the pipe for over 7k miles. I'd say that's a little more than 100 hours.

As far as accuracy over temperature range, that's why they went to a heated sensor. Which BTW was introduced in 1982; I guess that wasn't old enough technology, had to go back to 1976 and eliminate that pesky heater.

Over & out

[Steve Cole]

The heater did nothing other than allow the sensor to get up to operating temperature quicker, it had nothing to do with the accuracy of the sensor. I would certainly hope the aftermarket unit you have would pickup a disconnected sensor like you had, if not it's pretty poor design. Like I said forget what Zippers, Tmax, ... say. You said you could dig up the Bosch papers on the sensor, so go do it and you will find what I've said is correct. Why would DynoJet of come out with a calibration kit for there dyno system sensor if it was not needed? It's the same sensor as your using. Why would all the auto companies still run a switching sensor along with the cheap sensor your using? Why would anyone use the true wide band sensors like we do and pay $650 and up for them if we didn't have too? Rest assured I would love for them to really work like the good ones do but they do not! It would save us plenty of money and that is just the reason we sat down and did the work with them. There is much more to it than you know. Are they junk.......... not at all but they have limits. Believe what you like, that's your choice but until you sit down and do the work please do not mislead others.


Here are just a little bit of the information from the Bosch documentation. Note the one I put in bold type.

Oxygen Sensor life spans will vary between vehicle and sensor designs,
and are effected by many factors including fuel quality and vehicle
operational characteristics.

Oxygen Sensors will die of “old age”, they are a wearing service
part like a platinum spark plug.

As the Oxygen Sensor deteriorates over time, or is contaminated
the output from the sensor “slows down”. This causes the “average”
that the fuel management system calculates to reduce.

The lower average gives the impression that the engine is lean and
the fuel management system overcompensates to rich.

The heater supply voltage must be controlled, so that the temperature of
the sensor is kept at the operation point. The temperature is measured by
measuring the internal resistance of the sensor’s Nernst cell

Changes in the test gas composition, especially of the H2-concentration,
will have an influence on the characteristics of the sensor. These influences
are stronger in rich gas than under lean gas conditions.

A temperature change of the sensor ceramic gives a deviation of the sensor
output signal....

The lambda sensor has been developed and tested for use in automotive engines
only.
The sensor installation point and the sensor functionality in the full system
must be assured sufficiently by the customer through appropriate vehicle
tests under realistic conditions of use.

[fxrp]

[The heater did nothing other than allow the sensor to get up to operating temperature quicker, it had nothing to do with the accuracy of the sensor.]


Uhhh, the sensor isn't accurate until it reaches operating temperature but adding the heater had nothing to do with accuracy 


[You said you could dig up the Bosch papers on the sensor, so go do it and you will find what I've said is correct.]

I never said anything of the kind, I corrected myself that the sensor reads from straight gas; it doesn't it reads from 9.0:1 AFR to pure air.

[.  .  .  a switching sensor along with the cheap sensor your using  .  .  .]

Lets see 2-wire, unheated, narrow band sensor, ( switching) under $40.

wide band, heated sensor, (linear) $80

[Scramjet]

Lets see...

I have had two bikes on the PCIII.  Converted one to the TTS MasterTune.  The other is still on the PCIII.  After several years of build changes and testing, tinkering and dyno tunes here is how I see it:

1.  For a simple stage one build or basic stage 2 build with exhaust pipes, model, year and build matching the canned map the PCIII or PCV (without the autotune module) is probably the best solution for the money.  The tune will be close enough for most riders but NOT right on.  It can not be tuned properly without a dyno.  You can tinker in the cruise range and improve the fuel economy but you are just guessing.  Even with a dyno tune the responsiveness and driveability is not as good as the TTS.  How do I know?  I have done it.

2. For any other build with a dead-on accurate tune for 80% to 90% of the throttle range the TTS is the superior solution for a few bucks more.  The responsiveness and diveability is much improved over the PCIII.  You do not need a dyno to be right on for both cylinders.  NO TUNING NEEDED!  You can get a dyno tune for WOT peak power but it is not necessary.  You can accurately dial in any AFR you like and it will stay accurate as long as some of your map is in the closed loop mode.  How do I know?  I have done it.

3. For a discussion on the TTS vs. the PCV with autotune, I can only add these comments as I have not used or tested the PCV.  It will cost more and it is a piggyback unit.

B

[Steve Cole]

[The heater did nothing other than allow the sensor to get up to operating temperature quicker, it had nothing to do with the accuracy of the sensor.]

Uhhh, the sensor isn't accurate until it reaches operating temperature but adding the heater had nothing to do with accuracy 

I guess you really have no idea do you? The sensor does not work until its at operating temperature so I guess in your mind not working is real accurate

[You said you could dig up the Bosch papers on the sensor, so go do it and you will find what I've said is correct.]

I never said anything of the kind, I corrected myself that the sensor reads from straight gas; it doesn't it reads from 9.0:1 AFR to pure air.

[.  .  .  a switching sensor along with the cheap sensor your using  .  .  .]

Lets see 2-wire, unheated, narrow band sensor, ( switching) under $40.

wide band, heated sensor, (linear) $80

Since you have no idea how any of it works and your not will to learn anything I can see why the others gave up on you in this post. Do yourself and everyone else a favor and go learn a thing or two about it then come back and we can have a meanful conversation. I will event make it easy for you, go get Bosch Technical paper Y 258 E00 015e maybe you could learn just a little from the people who make the sensor.

As for sensors
$40 for a switching sensor
$80 for a cheap low budget sensor or
$750 for a real wide band sensor

I said it before and I will say it again I really wish these cheap sensors would do what some of you believe they will do and maybe someday they will. For now they do not!

[fxrp]

The only person who gave up is the one who made the embarrassing statement about the number of wires on the OEM sensor.

[fxstdavew]

Steve or Bob , I understand the Master tune tuning up to 90% throttle,but what is nec. to get 100% throttle dialed into the 13.2-13.5 range? I'm assuming that it's only going to be as close as the base map, and getting a full throttle dyno run is going to have to be done to get it correct.

[iclick]

Even with a dyno tune the responsiveness and driveability [of a PC] is not as good as the TTS.  How do I know?  I have done it.

Why would this be?  If so there must be a reason that can be explained.  A tune is either accurate or not, and the "responsiveness and driveability" should be equal given a good tune for both.  Much of this depends on the competence of the tuner.  If you had a tune with a PC that wasn't up to the level of TTS and driveability suffered, I would submit that your PC tuner didn't give you an adequate tune.

2. For any other build with a dead-on accurate tune for 80% to 90% of the throttle range the TTS is the superior solution for a few bucks more.  The responsiveness and diveability is much improved over the PCIII.  You do not need a dyno to be right on for both cylinders.  NO TUNING NEEDED!  You can get a dyno tune for WOT peak power but it is not necessary.  You can accurately dial in any AFR you like and it will stay accurate as long as some of your map is in the closed loop mode.  How do I know?  I have done it.

With the exception of closed-loop, which is not operable in much of the tuning range, why would you say that there is "no tuning needed"?  What about the important open-loop area that includes WOT?

3. For a discussion on the TTS vs. the PCV with autotune, I can only add these comments as I have not used or tested the PCV.  It will cost more and it is a piggyback unit.

The PCV is ~$300, with AT is ~$600.  The TTS is $500 with the USB cable kit and that doesn't include a requisite dyno tune, which would certainly be more than $100, the break-even point.  Thus, the PCV-AT does not cost more.  As for it being a piggyback unit, where is the downside to that?  It might break on the road?  Okay, disconnect it and ride on.  The map won't be ideal but stuff happens and you will get home without damage.  Besides, the chances of that are remote.

[FLTRI]

Steve or Bob , I understand the Master tune tuning up to 90% throttle,but what is nec. to get 100% throttle dialed into the 13.2-13.5 range? I'm assuming that it's only going to be as close as the base map, and "getting a full throttle dyno run is going to have to be done to get it correct".

The answer is yes. Not necessary unless, of course, WOT is something you are interested in.

[Steve Cole]

When you V-tune  a O2 equipped HD it will correct the system up to 80 kPa. So all that is missing is the 80 - 100 kPa range. To do that all you do is take the last value that V-tune corrected in a particular RPM range and then look at the trend for that RPM range before that point. So if the cells to the left are running +2 each cell as you get to the last corrected value, then take the last good value and add +2 and place that value into the next cell At low RPM you will have several cells to do but as engine speed rises it will become less and less. Above 3000 RPM it will typically only be one or two cells you need to fill in. Once that's done just set the AFR table to what you want. In our testing we found that what you set less any offset you place in the system will get you +/- .2 AFR from the number you placed in there. All this is explained much better than this in the help file included with the product. While a dyno will make it easier and quicker to get tuned if you not looking for every last little bit of power it is not required.

Iclick

On a O2 equipped HD the PC removes the O2 sensors so you loss the ability of the system to correct for changes in base fuel, weather and driving conditions. Since you have lost this ability it shows up in daily riding but properly tune both should make the same overall power at WOT. Now since the ECM has several different operating modes how can the PC correct when the mode is changed? It cannot and that another issue with any add-on box. The same problem with the ECM selecting different modes that an add-on box doesn't know about happens with an open loop bike as well. The Delphi ECM is very good so why would you want to dumb it down?

[iclick]

Steve or Bob , I understand the Master tune tuning up to 90% throttle,but what is nec. to get 100% throttle dialed into the 13.2-13.5 range? I'm assuming that it's only going to be as close as the base map, and "getting a full throttle dyno run is going to have to be done to get it correct".

The answer is yes. Not necessary unless, of course, WOT is something you are interested in.

1)  I thought stock closed-loop operation ended somewhere around 50-60% TP.  Is it in fact 90%? 

(2)  You would want a tune without WOT being included?  I think you would have to admit that TTS requires a full dyno tune.

(3)  If you tune the closed-loop region, will you be able to specify less than about 14.2:1 AFR?  Narrow-band closed-loop is limited to around 14.2-15.1:1, IIRC.  Is this not correct?  If not, wouldn't you consider this a downside to TTS or SEST that uses the stock narrow-band sensors?

[iclick]

On a O2 equipped HD the PC removes the O2 sensors so you loss the ability of the system to correct for changes in base fuel, weather and driving conditions.

Not true.  The stock MAP sensor that measures atmospheric pressure and manifold vacuum and two temperature sensors do an excellent job of correcting changes in the environment.  The narrow-band O2 sensors on the stock Delphi system are very limited in functionality, including only part of the AFR and RPM/TP ranges. 

Since you have lost this ability it shows up in daily riding but properly tune both should make the same overall power at WOT. Now since the ECM has several different operating modes how can the PC correct when the mode is changed? It cannot and that another issue with any add-on box. The same problem with the ECM selecting different modes that an add-on box doesn't know about happens with an open loop bike as well. The Delphi ECM is very good so why would you want to dumb it down?

I see no dumbing down at all.  You are using every bit of the functionality of the ECU (MAP, temperature, knock-sensing, etc.), yet are simply adding percentages (AFR) and degrees (ignition timing) to make your corrections.  How is this dumbing anything down?  All the stock Delphi systems are still intact and functioning in open-loop mode with the PC attached.  The aforementioned comments are with the PCV alone.  With the PCV-AT you are reading off the wide-band sensors and making correct adjustments on the fly throughout the RPM/TP range based on your target AFR's and ignition-timing changes.  You can't do that with TTS or SEST throughout all ranges.

To me the TTS costs more, assuming a requisite dyno tune is included, and lacks the wide-ranging functionality of the PCV-AT.  Am I wrong?  Additionally, answer me this:

(1)  Can you tune with offsets for speed, gear position, manifold pressure, temperature, or any external 1-5V analog input?
(2)  Can you attach a simple on-off switch and have dual-map capability, switchable on the fly?
(3)  Using any optional device available can you select from multiple maps on the fly (limit depending on the size of SD card used)?

[txtech]

On a O2 equipped HD the PC removes the O2 sensors so you loss the ability of the system to correct for changes in base fuel, weather and driving conditions.

Not true.  The stock MAP sensor that measures atmospheric pressure and manifold vacuum and two temperature sensors do an excellent job of correcting changes in the environment.  The narrow-band O2 sensors on the stock Delphi system are very limited in functionality, including only part of the AFR and RPM/TP ranges. 

Since you have lost this ability it shows up in daily riding but properly tune both should make the same overall power at WOT. Now since the ECM has several different operating modes how can the PC correct when the mode is changed? It cannot and that another issue with any add-on box. The same problem with the ECM selecting different modes that an add-on box doesn't know about happens with an open loop bike as well. The Delphi ECM is very good so why would you want to dumb it down?

I see no dumbing down at all.  You are using every bit of the functionality of the ECU (MAP, temperature, knock-sensing, etc.), yet are simply adding percentages (AFR) and degrees (ignition timing) to make your corrections.  How is this dumbing anything down?  All the stock Delphi systems are still intact and functioning.  The aforementioned comments are with the PCV alone.  With the PCV-AT you are reading off the wide-band sensors and making correct adjustments on the fly throughout the RPM/TP range based on your target AFR's and ignition-timing changes.  You can't do that with TTS or SEST throughout all ranges.

i was going to replace my pc3 with a tts until i read some of these post, now i think i"ll keep my pc3.

[FLTRI]

Tuning cruise in closed loop to 14.2 provides great fuel mileage, cool running and complete AFR control for many differing conditions. Tuning open loop between 14.0-13.2 depending on the TP/RPM range provides open loop running for best performance depending on the operating ranges.
Personally I prefer to back up all assumptions with measuring equipment be it dyno or on board systems.

The reliability of switching sensors (narrow band) is far superior to wideband sensors mainly due to circuitry built inside these sensors that are sensitive to high external heat and vibration. This is why the OEMs only use them down stream of the hot exhaust pipe for monitoring before and after catalytic converters to detect them going away.

Also it should be noted most all racing entities use wideband sensors to tune with, however remove them for racing due to their failure rate under these high heat/vibration conditions.

Please understand I am not offering this info to those who already have their minds made up that the auto-tune systems are the "Holy Grail" of tuning systems, but for those open-minded, who are trying to understand the HD closed loop systems and why wideband sensors are not used by OEMs to constantly tune vehicles.

Hoping this taken in the spirit in which it was intended,
Bob Lobenberg
Oh, almost forgot: