Question on starting issue UPDATE 1-16-12

[ΚĜΗΟŜΤ]

2004 softail standard, S7S 570 gear drive cams, modified heads and intake, DTT ignition, Carbed, ~ 10.25 to 1 compression, stock 3.15 to 1 primary gearing, screaming eagle clutch and VPC, cv 40 and set up well and works very good.

Basicaly I have no issues with the way this biuld runs......very good,

But time to time I get the wonderful Kickback when starting occurs, I have tried all different DTT settings and run 93 octane.

Now for my question. I purchased a brand new DEKA AGM battery from the factory in RI when I did the biuld in 2010

So my battery has 3 seasons on it, it is a 310 CCA battery.

The bike was sitting for about a month or so, as the weather has changed and winter is comming, I went to start it and the battery only lasted about 3 cranks and they were slowwwww revolutions and then click click click..

I attached a automotive type charger set to 15 amps  for about 5 minutes and that was all it took to start. Drove it for about a hour or so that day and no issues restarting.

I then let the bike sit for a week and I was preparing to winterize it and when I went to start it and the same thing happened again, also it seemed to kick back during the cranking but did not start. I pulled the battery out of the bike and charged it with a regular battery charger for ~18 hours at a 2 amp charge rate. I then let it sit for about 24 hours (no conections).
I checked it with a meter DVM and it read 12.6 volts after sitting static no connection for 24 hours.

I brought the battery to my work bench. have a battery load tester, the kind with the very large spring like resistor that is supose to simulate a starters amperage draw as the spring/resistor heat up and starts to glow red.
I connected it to the battery and it did NOT fail the test. It stayed within the acceptable range on the meter of the load tester as the resitor got hot but i did not let it glow red...

What are your opinions, do you think I need a new higher output starter as my original may be beat after this biuld?
Addition info, The bike did this once this season near the end of the summer after starting and driving to a gas station 1 mile away and shutting it off, I went to restart and it kicked back and then the dreaded click click click.
Prior to this, The bike has never failed to start even if I have had kick back before....

Any opinions? Greatly appritiated!!

J

[koko3052]

Either  the "juice" isn't getting to your starter or their isn't enough juice!

[ΚĜΗΟŜΤ]

The fact that the battery goes down so quickly I suspect the battery.....BUT the test I posted above tells me not so....

Maybe the battery was not fully charged or maybe it is dissapating the charge when not in use.......

Not sure that is whay I am asking for suggestions and expeience with a similar issue.

Thanks

[HogMike]

Have you checked for stray voltage drain, cable connections, charging system, all the normal stuff?
If your battery retains charge on the bench for a week, you have a small draw on the bike.
I COULD be a bad starter, but, I would check everything else first and see what the amp draw is on the starter.
Been down that road before and have found bad connections inside battery cables, ground cables, etc. that are NOT visible on inspection.

[truck]

At 12.6 volts the battery has only 75% charge, 12.8 volts is 100% charge.

[Mopar]

Another thing to think about is compression and spark advance. Have you considered compression releases?

[slypig]

cable connections at the battery, starter and the ground??

I eliminated my kickback by cracking the throttle slightly when starting.  Some say it works and some not so much.  Easy to try and works for me.

Battery should be load tested at 50% of the battery's cold cranking amperage rating for 15 seconds.  The voltage should not read less than 9.6V .  I like to see no less than 10V.

[slypig]

At 12.6 volts the battery has only 75% charge, 12.8 volts is 100% charge.

Problem with testing the open circuit battery voltage is that the meter being used may not be accurate. One meter may read 12.6 and another may read 12.7 or 12.8. 

[ΚĜΗΟŜΤ]

Another thing to think about is compression and spark advance. Have you considered compression releases?

Hind site is 20-20............I was talked into no by the head guy and biulder.......I am considering going to easy start cams though.......

[ΚĜΗΟŜΤ]

My meter is very acurate.........within +/- .01% Beckman severe duty. I know it is good.

I let the battery sit all night on my work bench, I went down and load tested again during my lunch break...live close to work so I go home for lunch.

12.6 volts before, load tested I waited to see the resistor glow red, it went to the "need charge" area of the load tester.

Also both times I checked battery voltage after, 12.3 but rebounds back up over time.

So my experience with batteries is this one is GOOD. It may need a charge but it appears to not be draining down to failure.

So I am thinking maybe the starter is drawing a bit too much too quickly....remember the starter is original and now is going on 9 years old and has 26,000 miles between original and new biuld.

Thanks and keep it coming......

[Hossamania]

I would definitely cbeck the cables and possibly replace them with heavier guage.

[slypig]

"12.6 volts before, load tested I waited to see the resistor glow red, it went to the "need charge" area of the load tester."

I'm a little sceptical about not knowing what the load is when testing the battery.  Glowing red doesn't tell you much.
You could get a real world test by measuring the voltage on the battery and at the starter while cranking and checking voltage drop on the cables.

[04 SE Deuce]

I had a Harley-Deka that was 26 months old that had 13.2 volts and never needed or would take a charge but had only 110cca,  this is on a bike that never sits for any length of time.   Deka's have a reputation for being good and lasting but I believe they are having some marginal or short lived batteries in the last 2-3 years as we seem to see it here more.  Most here don't believe there is an issue as it hasn't happened to them yet. 

After you rule out connections, drain, and charging,  I'll bet it's the battery.

If it would end up being the starter,  one thing I did notice when I switched from the stock 1.2kw starter to a All Balls 1.4kw is that the occasional hot start issue at fuel stops that the bike has had since new no longer happen,  ever.  I have a 2004 softail also and the Drag Specialty # 80-1001 is an All Balls black 1.4kw starter for our application, the 1.4kw is slightly longer so the chrome end cover no longer fits, All Balls (good people)offered and sent 2 chrome bolts to replace the bolts with studs.  Sourcing the starter through Drag saves $60,  List 259.95,  same exact starter.    Rick

FWIW,  stock starter was still working when replaced at 70K.

[ΚĜΗΟŜΤ]

I was just talking with a co-worker about this and I remembered back in 2011 I was doing a compression check for my own information one afternoon and I remember that I would get the rear cyclinder reading but when I went to the front (no reason just the way I did it, could have been front first...) The motor spun over a couple of thimes and then it slowed down quickly. This bothered me as the battery was only one year old and with one plug out and the guage screwed into one hole it should have cranked it quite a bit more in my opinion...

Now I am think with this issue remebered that my battery is marginal........

I will visit the cables and psssibly the starter, Thanks for the part numbers......

It may be worth while to invest in a larger starter anyway.......

Keep the info coming....

[slypig]

Experience tells me that the faster you can spin the motor when starting the less chance of kick back.

[Admiral Akbar]

You need to check drain on the battery with the ignition off as leakage could be killing the battery.. Chances are that the battery itself as internal resistance that is is killing the itself.. You can let the thing sit on the bench for a week and see what it reads.. One thing I would not do is use a cheap older charger at low amp rate for long periods of time.. It will kill the life of the battery.. The problem is that if the reaches full charge at say after 6 hours on an 18 hour charge, you'll dry the battery out and it's capacity will be diminished..

Also Battery tenders won't help.. I've had them say the battery is charged when it ain't.. Best to use them only after the battery is charged.. So what to use to charge the battery? Well, the old time ones with timers work well as long as charge time is short just to get the battery up.. I think that the new smart chargers that can put out 10 amps would be an option.. They support bulk/absorb/float modes for AGM batteries but I've not tried one..  One that I just bought from Napa seems to work well but is a little cruder. It charges to voltage specified internally then shuts off.. If the voltage drops below a certain point the charger switches back on.. It sort of buld charges until see a good float volatge on the battery..

It seems to work well. I've killed the AGM battery (harley) to the point where is was stone dead for a couple days..  Brought it back to life..

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?R=NBC85435_0006389653

I'd hooked up my Bobber to a battery tender and and the tender said the battery was charged but motor wouldn't crank.. The Napa charger got it back to where is would crank again.. The battery probably needs replacing.. Has the same problem, sits for a week days and won't crank..

Max

[ΚĜΗΟŜΤ]

Thanks so far....

I have two battery tenders, One is a older sears one with no special words on the label, the other is a newer one that says it will desulfate... after battery reaches charge level it will pulse from time to time...

I hooked the newer one up on my bench in my basement, I attached the load tester and had my dvm across the battery,

The battery measured 12.7 vdc, no load nothing connected.

I switched the load tester on for 15 seconds reading was 10.4 vdc, then for 5 more second for a total of
20 seconds meter went down to 9.75 vdc,

As far as the load tester guage reads, I was good for the first 15 seconds then it started to drop in the "needs to be charged" section of the guage.

The numerical value is analog on the load tester above the image so I was not looking at that.

I think based on the fact that it drops below 10 volts between 15 and 20 seconds of load tells me the battery is toast...I feel it should stay within the 10 - 11 volt range for a lot longer...It may also explain the fact it ran out of juice when I did my compression check last year... it should have cranked the motor over a lot longer... I have seen bigger motors crank over for quite a few minutes with both plugs in. A lot better than my "1-2 year old" deka fartory purchased AGM battery...................
Should have just gone to the batteries R us store and bought what was available... could not have done any worse........

I will research maybe a replacement or maybe a lithium one.

There was another thread and I looked at some and the prices are way down from a year or so ago..

410 CCA is $228....  That is 2 standard batteries I know and I could get many years for less money but i am just looking now.

[slypig]

Thanks so far....

I have two battery tenders, One is a older sears one with no special words on the label, the other is a newer one that says it will desulfate... after battery reaches charge level it will pulse from time to time...

I hooked the newer one up on my bench in my basement, I attached the load tester and had my dvm across the battery,

The battery measured 12.7 vdc, no load nothing connected.

I switched the load tester on for 15 seconds reading was 10.4 vdc, then for 5 more second for a total of
20 seconds meter went down to 9.75 vdc,

As far as the load tester guage reads, I was good for the first 15 seconds then it started to drop in the "needs to be charged" section of the guage.

The numerical value is analog on the load tester above the image so I was not looking at that.

I think based on the fact that it drops below 10 volts between 15 and 20 seconds of load tells me the battery is toast...I feel it should stay within the 10 - 11 volt range for a lot longer...It may also explain the fact it ran out of juice when I did my compression check last year... it should have cranked the motor over a lot longer... I have seen bigger motors crank over for quite a few minutes with both plugs in. A lot better than my "1-2 year old" deka fartory purchased AGM battery...................
Should have just gone to the batteries R us store and bought what was available... could not have done any worse........

I will research maybe a replacement or maybe a lithium one.

There was another thread and I looked at some and the prices are way down from a year or so ago..

410 CCA is $228....  That is 2 standard batteries I know and I could get many years for less money but i am just looking now.

Most say if the battery voltage drops below about 10V when loadtesting at 1/2 of the batteries rated CCA for 15 seconds then the battery is defective.  Your findings are close to the 10V area but you are testing the battery with a unknown load.  If the load you are using is more than 1/2 of the batteries rated CCA the battery is good according to your voltage readings. 

[ΚĜΗΟŜΤ]

My load tester is a 100 amp load.....
Just went and read the box.

[slypig]

My load tester is a 100 amp load.....
Just went and read the box.

Thanks!
That's less than half of the batteries CCA.  With that information a good battery should pass with no problem.  Yours isn't holding 10 volts even with that reduced load. I think your analysis is right on..  Defective battery.

[northbrun]

kghost, message sent. good luck... sounds like a battery to me. my message will tell you one way or another.

[Admiral Akbar]

kghost, message sent. good luck... sounds like a battery to me. my message will tell you one way or another.

Why? Did you use a magic 8 ball?

Max

[Molly]

Can't contribute much here but wanted to recommend the Optimate battery tender. I've never had to replace a battery in ten years.

That said, I have changed my bike a dozen times....

[ΚĜΗΟŜΤ]

kghost, message sent. good luck... sounds like a battery to me. my message will tell you one way or another.

Why? Did you use a magic 8 ball?

Max

Max,

Although I am not shure who this individual is yet, he obviuosly lives very close to me and has suggested a location with a high end battery tester very close by.......so no majic 8 ball............although I could use one right about now....

Thanks

[ΚĜΗΟŜΤ]

UPDATE.......

Well I pulled my 2004 original HD battery out of my shed last week, measured the voltage, 5.6 volts DC.

I put it on a 15 amp charge for about 8 hours then on a battery tender for about 24 hours.

It came up to 12 .54 volts dc on my meter.

I hooked up my 100 amp load tester and repeated the same test as was done on my DEKA AGM I purchased three years ago and discussed in previous posts above.

The results were,

DEKA fully charged............100 amp load for 15 seconds and the load meter went down almost to fail ~ 6 volts DC.

6+ year old original HD battery that has been sitting in a shed for 3 years...............100 amp load for 15 seconds the load meter did not move bellow 10.4 volts.


Conclusion, DEKA 3 year old battery is NFG.........

Second conclusion, purchase new battery in the spring.........

Thanks for all replies and I hope the follow up helps someone else.

Jack

[PoorUB]

Toss the old HD battery in and ride it!

[ΚĜΗΟŜΤ]

Ya I thought about that BUT I do not want to take any chances........Nothing more embaressing than a bike that wont start in front of hundreds of others.......for a stupid reason as using a 9 year old battery........

If I said 6 year old before it was a mistake. the original HD battery was new in 2004 when I purchased the bike.