Deteriorating CL tune

[joe_lyons]

With all of this talk about tunes going to crap after they leave and run on the road for a while i have a couple of questions for those people.   If you did vtune, PV bt, or sepst ST and had this happen did you monitor the a/f while recording and see if the dyno/controler matched the a/f value that the ecm was trying to achieve?  I ask because i have done quite a few vtune, PV bt and sepst ST and havent had any issues.  I have had quite a few bikes that if there was a difference between the two readings then in those areas (usually 20- 35 kpa) then i would just do that area in open loop and leave the rest cl that matched up and read well and ship it.  But i always use the dyno sensor to double check what the stock sensors are reading.

[mayor]

great thread Joe.     this is a topic I'm interested in hearing more about as well. 

[FLTRI]

Joe,
Thanks for the post.

This has been my experience as well. If the o2 readings are good enough for v-tune, etc they will be good on the street.

All this bad crap we hear about started before v-tune and some tuners liked to tune rich...to the point the o2 sensors would drop out.

Or the tune was inadvertently left with a big super lean area(s) where the o2 sensors also dropped out.

So those who took the time figure the actual reasons for closed loop failures soon realized the exhaust mfgs were not doing anyone favors with their first go around with sensor placement which also added to the unreliability of the sampling.

Now we are some 3-4 years later and most all the sensor placement issues have been addressed...some more effectively than others.

Those pipes with issues need to be compensated for by leaving crappy reading in open loop...or fix the problem which can be expensive for the customer. I'm not convinced the $$ is worth the improvement.

If the sample is reliable use closed loop, if not open.

I find exhaust mfgs who actually test for proper o2 signaling also make the best power
D&D - Thunderheader - Bassani - Drago - Cycle Shack
Each one of those mfgs, once they realized the sensor needs to be in the exhaust stream,  immediately took steps to correct the placement.

Bob

[wurk_truk]

I agree it's the pipes.  Especially the 18mm bikes.  The stock location was not that great once free flow cans were installed.  All the mfgs copied that location.  With restrictive cans, things worked.  Changing locations and depth worked wonders.

Once the 12mm pipes came along, those sensor positions were way less critical. AND, those that made dual bung pipes had better placement.

Even the 09 pipes sucked.  AFVs would screw up the tune.  Sepst and tts, both came out in those 18mm days, and we had to learn what was happening before it could be addressed.back when 205 cals were it.

Some gave up.  Others figured it out.  Using the ecm along with the provided software to plot VEs works well, v tune and pv tune schemes.  Like Bob says, open up trouble areas and leave decent areas CL.  Some pipes simply suck.  Leave then open loop and move on.

I see it as a non issue anymore.....  but it took a few years......

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[laserp]

I have 2010 Limited, with the jackpot 2-1-2, dyno tuned muffs on a 103 @10.2 andrews54, TTS. The pipe has the stock located narrow band sensors. Are they located in the right spot and the right depth?

I used both the vtune and the twin scan 2+. Struggled a little with the TS.. bungs up at the exhaust ports... chased my tail in the light load areas. Seemed like the vtuned did a better job.

Laser

[Jeffd]

I have 2010 Limited, with the jackpot 2-1-2, dyno tuned muffs on a 103 @10.5 andrews54, TTS. The pipe has the stock located narrow band sensors. Are they located in the right spot and the right depth?

I used both the vtune and the twin scan 2+. Struggled a little with the TS.. bungs up at the exhaust ports... chased my tail in the light load areas. Seemed like the vtuned did a better job.

Laser

by all accounts the jackpot headers have the correct 02 sensor placements.

[Jamie Long]

I have 2010 Limited, with the jackpot 2-1-2, dyno tuned muffs on a 103 @10.5 andrews54, TTS. The pipe has the stock located narrow band sensors. Are they located in the right spot and the right depth?

I used both the vtune and the twin scan 2+. Struggled a little with the TS.. bungs up at the exhaust ports... chased my tail in the light load areas. Seemed like the vtuned did a better job.

Laser

The Jackpot 2/1/2 has the 18mm/12mm O2 bungs located in optimal locations at the correct depth. This is something we not only tested thoroughly when we developed this pipe back in 2009, however we work with this pipe extensively in and out every day in a wide range of applications using nearly every tuning product on the market.

[Jamie Long]

Sometimes it seems to be more than location of the bung.  Take the Jackpot header. Bungs do look good. Sampling is great with decent slip-ons at 30-40kpa. Take slip-on and run them as open headers. You will never get a good sample. Pressure in the pipe is the problem, or lack of.  Not location.  This is the extreme example, but plays into some slip-ons will not help you collect data at lower kpa. Tab comes to mind.

You are absolutely correct. Looking at the big picture O2 sampling is only as good as the rest of the combination and the tuning strategy itself. Components such as mufflers, cam design, how the engine is setup, and a wide range of other variables will affect the tuning characteristics of an exhaust system on several levels. Many times what is blamed on improper O2 signaling or an issue with a tuning product is actually a sign of an underlying issue with the specific combination being tuned, the base calibration itself, or ones completely relying on O2 sensors to develop the tune.

[joe_lyons]

Has anyone had any issues with the bung style/location that harley and V&H use for the 12mm on dyna, ST and some VH touring?  I dont know if it is just a cosmetic/easy angle thing or that the radius of the bung helps with the proper signal.

[laserp]

Thanks for the feedback on my question guys. Good news!
Laser

[joe_lyons]

So I'm guessing that no one has had any issues with stamped bungs?  Must be a radius thing with the bung to help get good signal kinda like a plane wing?

[hrdtail78]

I didn't have a problem with the new style. Got another one tomorrow. Same new style.  Different builds with different slip ons.  If I had to guess why? I'd say looks and the stamped are cheaper to make and gotta be easier to weld in.  Be a great piece to sell separately. 

Just when I was building good confidence in a popular 2-1-2.

[joe_lyons]

For sure on the fact that its cheaper.  That's the force that drives many decisions.  Guess you could cut a ton of of then out of stock dyna and ST  exhausts and sell them.  But sometimes a cheaper choice can work well too, but not very often it seems.

[hrdtail78]

Got a potential customer that has a 2013 softail and RH 2-2 new in box from eBay.  I looked them up and have talked to RH.  RH stated the adapters I needed would be great. Never seen a problem.  So.... I can either weld in bungs or use a modified adapter I'm thinking about. 

[Hilly13]

CL tune will only change if something ain't right, I ride my bike at least 5 days a week to and from work most weeks of the year which is lots of oppertunity for the tune to go south, but in truth it is the opposite, now the sensors are in the stream as they should be the tune don't change, before the 02's were right it did drift, now it dont, so much hot air about this, gotta wonder what the motivation is, my closed loop area is small but the bike does run there a lot, maybe I'm missing something, might have been that frontal lobotomy 

[joe_lyons]

Got a potential customer that has a 2013 softail and RH 2-2 new in box from eBay.  I looked them up and have talked to RH.  RH stated the adapters I needed would be great. Never seen a problem.  So.... I can either weld in bungs or use a modified adapter I'm thinking about.

I would be weary of adapters for the sensors for sure.  I've even seen 18mm to 12mm adapters they must work great lol.

[FLTRI]

I would be weary of adapters for the sensors for sure.  I've even seen 18mm to 12mm adapters they must work great lol.

Yep, I've seen those jewels! Unbelievable what crops up in the aftermarket!
Take a questionable length bung and add an adapter which, for sure, gets the sensor out of the exhaust flow.
Bob

[hrdtail78]

The ones I'm looking at are basically bung plugs with 12 mm threaded hole in the middle instead of the Allen port.  I was looking at turning down the hat portion and threading it onto the sensors. Then threading the sensor into the 18 mm bung. I can get a better plan of attack when I actually get the pipes to my shop.

[FLTRI]

Jason,
If the 12mm sensors are placed downstream as with stock locations and into the stream will produce reliable results.
If the sensors are right outside the exhaust port and/or not into the stream it's just a guess as to results.
Just my experiences,
Bob

[rbabos]

The ones I'm looking at are basically bung plugs with 12 mm threaded hole in the middle instead of the Allen port.  I was looking at turning down the hat portion and threading it onto the sensors. Then threading the sensor into the 18 mm bung. I can get a better plan of attack when I actually get the pipes to my shop.

That should do the trick. Depth will pretty much match up for what you need then.
Ron

[wurk_truk]

putting the 12mm ones near the ports will smoke em up.  I don't think the heater circuit will take that amount of temp.

Looks like you get a chance to weld better than I do... again.

Azzhats and cheap pipes STILL make life miserable for us, and I just had told Ron this crap was on the wane, too.

I THINK, don't know for sure, that I MIGHT be a dick about pipe buys like this.

I will be VERY interested in what bungs to use for the 12mm pipes, if they DO need welded.

[rbabos]

putting the 12mm ones near the ports will smoke em up.  I don't think the heater circuit will take that amount of temp.

Looks like you get a chance to weld better than I do... again.

Azzhats and cheap pipes STILL make life miserable for us, and I just had told Ron this crap was on the wane, too.

I THINK, don't know for sure, that I MIGHT be a dick about pipe buys like this.

I will be VERY interested in what bungs to use for the 12mm pipes, if they DO need welded.

Too close, you are probably right. Vrod runs them around 10" from the port without any ill effects Ive heard about.
Ron

[joe_lyons]

putting the 12mm ones near the ports will smoke em up.  I don't think the heater circuit will take that amount of temp.

The mini sensors and the large sensors have the same heat range so I don't think that it would "smoke them". But I thought it was about the sample timing.  I think from the factory the location is a lot about ease of access and some proper location.

[wurk_truk]

I'm not buying that, Joe.  The heater circuits can't take that much temp.  Or it can't take it for long.

There is a reason, after all, MOCOC decided to use heated O2s... that being EPA...  and after THAT decision... they moved them downstream.

[FLTRI]

I agree with Joe. It's more about polling time differences between calibrations.
By moving the 12mm sensors right outside the port the heater circuit could be eliminated because they would get heated by exhaust.

The MOCO had to do something as the 100,000 mi sensors die much earlier (~10,000-~25,000) due partly to excessive vibration and possible, external heat soaking, even sooner if AFR is too rich.

Moving the sensors down stream hopefully helps to keep them alive longer but they have to heat them to get them on line earlier...yes EPA but not a bad thing.

Bob