Deteriorating CL tune

[wurk_truk]

HAHAHAHA!!!!!

[Coyote]

Bob, you are correct in saying that the narrow band devices don't actually switch (as in digital on or off). They are still an analog sensor but their response profile is of an avalanche type which makes them a switching sensor. I'm not at all sure how Delphi does their closed loop but all closed loop systems have the same blocks that integrate the feedback, set the loop frequency, loop response and reference.

I would guess that Delphi reads the sensor voltage and calculates (by integration) the area under the curve for both positive and negative areas around a fixed point (the 450mV usually). I believe that it is more complex than just saying it's rich or lean based on a sample of the sensor at any given time. The formulas for calculating loop dynamics are involved. I know as I have been designing closed loop systems for the last 25+ years.

I suspect we may have one or maybe two on the site that know details of how Delphi did this but I'm not one of them. I just understand closed loop design having done it for so long (albeit a different application).

[wolf_59]

Read page 3 under operation on the link from Ron
"From the oxygen content the ECM can determine if the air/fuel ratio is rich or lean and adjust the fuel mixture accordingly."
And on page 4 the diagram shows the narrow window that the O2 sensors are able to work in and states " the ECM will continuously add and subtract fuel producing a rich/lean cycle."

[FLTRI]

From the document rbabos offered:
"Think of them as switching sensors."
My ONLY point was that these sensors have no switching ability...again...just a voltage output that will provide reliable AFR control around the 450mv.area.
Outside that reliable area all bets are off (hence "narrow bands"?).
That is why we tried to pinpoint just 1 voltage output as it related to target AFR ie:12.8. While we were way outside the reliable range we calibrated each sensor voltage output that produced the desired 12.8 AFR. Each sensor was individually calibrated to what voltage = 12.8 AFR. That was in "early" days  of D/A systems designed for racing applications.
As always JMHO,
Bob

[FLTRI]

It's alright to be wrong Bob just man up and admit it.

it's amazing how you claim that you know more than Bosch but when someone claims to know more than TTS you get all defensive.

Absolutely amazing isn't it? How this is really a personal issue isn't it? I've never made any claim to know more than anyone...just relate my own personal experiences.
What are some of your personal tuning experiences using these sensors?
Do you see where these sensors fail to provide a smooth running Harley if the sampling is reliable in the pipe?

A switch does not need to be on/off it can be up/down, left/right, decrease/increase, +5-5

Yes you call anything that changes, a switch. My only point was that the sensor is not a physical switch in any way.

Bob

[Scotty]

It's alright to be wrong Bob just man up and admit it.

it's amazing how you claim that you know more than Bosch but when someone claims to know more than TTS you get all defensive.

Absolutely amazing isn't it? How this is really a personal issue isn't it? I've never made any claim to know more than anyone...just relate my own personal experiences.
What are some of your personal tuning experiences using these sensors?
Do you see where these sensors fail to provide a smooth running Harley if the sampling is reliable in the pipe?

A switch does not need to be on/off it can be up/down, left/right, decrease/increase, +5-5

Yes you call anything that changes, a switch. My only point was that the sensor is not a physical switch in any way.

Bob

Yes it is a switching sensor and I have more faith in Bosch's description and technical expertise than yours.

Don't take it personally when your wrong just admit it and move on to the next subject like I'm going to do as this thread is about 1 message away from being locked.

[joe_lyons]

Do the heated o2 sensors heat when on decell, bc every time I decell they cool off then when I get back on it they respond again or is that just my sensor location?

[ultraswede]

If we feed the o2 sensor a CONSTANT stoic AFR, as in a heated calibration gas, the output will be 0,450 V.


Can we agree on that?

[hpulven]

Interesting discussion between many knowledgeable persons here,
and I find it a bit puzzling that there is disagreement about
this, but I suppose it all comes down to semantics.

I would say: The nb o2 sensor is an anologe sensor.

(Be aware; I am talking about the sensor, not motorcycles,
engines, ecm,  only the device in itself, it might
theoretically be used for other things...)

A sensor is a device that outputs a signal as a response to
some observed physical condition it is monitoring.

A signal is digital if it can only output a limited set of
discrete values on a noncontinous, discrete scale.
(Normally binary digital, like ___--__-_---_-_-,
for example only 0 or 5 volts.)

A signal is analoge if it can be every value on a
continous scale, let us say everything between
0 and 1 volt.

Someone has to explain to me how these definitions of
sensor, analoge and digital can be used to say the
nb sensor is a digital switching sensor.

That the ecm is treating it as a digital sensor,
and that Bosch and Toyota say we should <i>think</i>
about it as a switch,
does not change the fact that the sensor in itself
is an analoge device.

Another thing; <i>is</i> the ecm really treating the
nb sensor as a digital switch, I don't know, but
I would have thought the ecm was more advanced than that,
not only registering if the sensor is over or under
a switching point, but also how much it is over or
under the switching point.

And, one more thing; some say the ecm is behaving
like a PID controller, that is not entirely true
either,is it? A PID controller would normally
try to stabilize the output from the sensor on
the target level, the ecm is doing something else,
it is driving the system to oscillate around the
target level, which takes another algorithm than
what is usually used in a PID. The only reason
for this is to be nice to the catalytic converter,
which most of you probably ripped out in the
first place. I am not saying this to start a new
quarrel, it just occured to me that some of
the third party ecm producers should make an ecm that
behaved like a real PID controller for the
majority of bikes where being nice to the
catalytic converter is of no interest whatsoever...
just a thought :-)

[strokerjlk]

Bob, you are correct in saying that the narrow band devices don't actually switch (as in digital on or off). They are still an analog sensor but their response profile is of an avalanche type which makes them a switching sensor. I'm not at all sure how Delphi does their closed loop but all closed loop systems have the same blocks that integrate the feedback, set the loop frequency, loop response and reference.

I would guess that Delphi reads the sensor voltage and calculates (by integration) the area under the curve for both positive and negative areas around a fixed point (the 450mV usually). I believe that it is more complex than just saying it's rich or lean based on a sample of the sensor at any given time. The formulas for calculating loop dynamics are involved. I know as I have been designing closed loop systems for the last 25+ years.

I suspect we may have one or maybe two on the site that know details of how Delphi did this but I'm not one of them. I just understand closed loop design having done it for so long (albeit a different application).

my experience is with Red Lion.
based on the tuning software we use to tune red lion controllers. I ask in your opinion...is the delphi strategy a true PID system? or is it missing derivative? and therefore actually a PI controller in a sense?

[strokerjlk]

Interesting discussion between many knowledgeable persons here,
and I find it a bit puzzling that there is disagreement about
this, but I suppose it all comes down to semantics.

I would say: The nb o2 sensor is an anologe sensor.

(Be aware; I am talking about the sensor, not motorcycles,
engines, ecm,  only the device in itself, it might
theoretically be used for other things...)

A sensor is a device that outputs a signal as a response to
some observed physical condition it is monitoring.

A signal is digital if it can only output a limited set of
discrete values on a noncontinous, discrete scale.
(Normally binary digital, like ___--__-_---_-_-,
for example only 0 or 5 volts.)

A signal is analoge if it can be every value on a
continous scale, let us say everything between
0 and 1 volt.

Someone has to explain to me how these definitions of
sensor, analoge and digital can be used to say the
nb sensor is a digital switching sensor.

That the ecm is treating it as a digital sensor,
and that Bosch and Toyota say we should <i>think</i>
about it as a switch,
does not change the fact that the sensor in itself
is an analoge device.

Another thing; <i>is</i> the ecm really treating the
nb sensor as a digital switch, I don't know, but
I would have thought the ecm was more advanced than that,
not only registering if the sensor is over or under
a switching point, but also how much it is over or
under the switching point.

And, one more thing; some say the ecm is behaving
like a PID controller, that is not entirely true
either,is it? A PID controller would normally
try to stabilize the output from the sensor on
the target level, the ecm is doing something else,
it is driving the system to oscillate around the
target level, which takes another algorithm than
what is usually used in a PID. The only reason
for this is to be nice to the catalytic converter,
which most of you probably ripped out in the
first place. I am not saying this to start a new
quarrel, it just occured to me that some of
the third party ecm producers should make an ecm that
behaved like a real PID controller for the
majority of bikes where being nice to the
catalytic converter is of no interest whatsoever...
just a thought :-)

[/color]
I missed your post first time through   Good points.

[rbabos]

Do the heated o2 sensors heat when on decell, bc every time I decell they cool off then when I get back on it they respond again or is that just my sensor location?

I thought they heat full time. Maybe extra decel fuel cools them off.
Ron

[FLTRI]

Do the heated o2 sensors heat when on decell, bc every time I decell they cool off then when I get back on it they respond again or is that just my sensor location?

I thought they heat full time. Maybe extra decel fuel cools them off.
Ron

My weak unprofessional and ignorant understanding is the O2 sensors are not heated all the time. The ECM determins when the heater is necessary and not.
During decel the exhaust, depending on design of course, pulls cold are into the exhaust, right?
That cold air cools the sensor which can take it offline temporarily. Since decel usually doesn't last very long the sensor will come back online soon, almost instantly, after load is returned to the engine.
Just some more of my ignorance showing through,
Bob

[joe_lyons]

I was just wondering BC even if I do a long decell from 6k to idle they stay off line the whole time.  Not a big deal just wondering. And I am pretty sure they are not heated all of the time just when deemed needed

[rbabos]

Do the heated o2 sensors heat when on decell, bc every time I decell they cool off then when I get back on it they respond again or is that just my sensor location?

I thought they heat full time. Maybe extra decel fuel cools them off.
Ron

My weak unprofessional and ignorant understanding is the O2 sensors are not heated all the time. The ECM determins when the heater is necessary and not.
During decel the exhaust, depending on design of course, pulls cold are into the exhaust, right?
That cold air cools the sensor which can take it offline temporarily. Since decel usually doesn't last very long the sensor will come back online soon, almost instantly, after load is returned to the engine.
Just some more of my ignorance showing through,
Bob

Ok, so where's your data to support this. To be switched on and off with the time delay for heat it wouldn't make sense. It would seem to be on full time, EPA wise the heat in the sensor would cause less time outs. Just trying to learn.
Ron

[FSG]

Having just designed and built some O2 Simulators for use in an Automotive application I can say that the Heaters are on full time.

There is no reason to think that a HD would do otherwise, nor is there any documentation, text or wiring diagram that would support one to think otherwise.

The foolproof way to verify it of course is to put a VOM across the 2 Heater wires and monitor the voltage to see if it disappears for periods of time.  Something easy for a Dyno Operator to do.

[HV]

I was out a few weeks ago doing a few Auto tune runs with my PV... now I must say it was COLD ..like 30F ...and I have an X Pipe so there is no Cat to retain built up heat close to the Heated sensors...watching he Monitor I could see them going off line after I slowed to a stop and I had to ride for a few feet under a load before they came back on line ...even moving slow in traffic would not bring them back up ....now today I did the same run with a 40   F day and they were active almost all the time

[rbabos]

Having just designed and built some O2 Simulators for use in an Automotive application I can say that the Heaters are on full time.

There is no reason to think that a HD would do otherwise, nor is there any documentation, text or wiring diagram that would support one to think otherwise.

The foolproof way to verify it of course is to put a VOM across the 2 Heater wires and monitor the voltage to see if it disappears for periods of time.  Something easy for a Dyno Operator to do.

Thanks for the info.  It would seem this would be the best way to use them. On and off would seem to be counter productive for their intended purpose.
Ron

[joe_lyons]

So my decell is enough to cool them off too much so the heaters cant keep up with heating them.  I do know in the Delphi literature it says it can go up to 1 amp to light them off quick.  So possibly a variable heater amperage per the situation.

[rbabos]

So my decell is enough to cool them off too much so the heaters cant keep up with heating them.  I do know in the Delphi literature it says it can go up to 1 amp to light them off quick.  So possibly a variable heater amperage per the situation.

I've not found any info other than they heat full time. Delphi lit does say sensor life dramatically reduces if heater function fails or degrades.
Ron

[FSG]

Just wait until HD is forced to follow the Auto Industry with the addition of an O2 Sensor(s) after the Cat so the ECU can monitor the performance of the Cat and throw codes or go into limp mode as it's sees fit.  Then there will be a market for O2 Simulators once again.

[joe_lyons]

Or we will have an option to turn them of in our tunning devices.

[rbabos]

Or we will have an option to turn them of in our tunning devices.

There you go. Problem solved.
Ron

[FSG]

True, but do you think that Tuning Mfrs would want to skate on that thin ice, that is if the're not on it already.   

[joe_lyons]

Its all off road use so its OK.