Direct Link tuning info?

[mayor]

I've been reading quite a few responses lately about tuning with Direct Link and I went to a seminar on this system at this years Vtwin Expo, but I don't know much about how someone gets set up to actually start tuning with this system.   I'm hoping we can have some civil discusions on the system, features and advantages.  For those that don't know what Direct Link is, here's a link to Techno Research's page that has info on the Direct Link system:
http://www.technoresearch.com/index.php?pid=46

I know wurk truk just invested in a Direct Link system and I'm pretty sure that StrokerJLK has used this system as well, so I hope we can hear some good honest feedback on the system.  I'm also hoping that Ed Dahir will participate in the discussion, since he was the one presenting at the seminar I went to in Cinci. 

Here's a recent HTT quote from Ed on the Direct Link system:

Direct Link requires a box which now has both the J1850 4pin and the CAN 6pin cable. The USB key is locked to the bike with VIN and name but also allows access to the Direct Link software. If on the road and there is an issue there are Direct Link tuning centers all over the World now that can re-flash the bike. The extra box (DL/Centurion box)is designed for tuners and tuning centers. If a DIY person wants to buy it they can and this will give them tuning capability like the others(smartTune). The other big advantages of Direct Link at this moment you can tune the VE tables with most of the popular Wideband controllers on the market. This tuning is called Auto Create. You log the dyno run through Direct Link Strip chart, after dyno run is complete open the log file, touch the autocreate button, and both front and rear cylinders VE's on any 4pin or 6 pin Harley Delphi will be populated and corrected from the Target Afr and Live wideband Afr data. The trick here is how well the dyno is run and how completely the data is collected.

here's some of my initial question:

1.  So to tune bikes with the DL system, does a tuner need the Centurion to use the DL?

2. Can the DL system use the on board sensors to tune the ve tables for the closed loop tables?

3. What are the options available for wide band sensor tuning?  anything that works in conjunction with the DL to save tuning time?  I see in Ed's response above that the tuning software can utilize data from some of the popular wide band controllers on the maret, so does that mean that the Twins Scan info will download right into the DL software to auto create ve values?   

I'm asking these questions more based on pro tuning options, since I'm not sure this is quite a DIY type of system.  I would be curious to hear if there are any DIY'ers using the DL for tuning.  My initial hypothesis is the initail cost is to much for the average DIY'er to consider as an option. 

tia,
mayor

[autoworker]

I think BVHOG uses Direct Link a fair amount.

[rigidthumper]

I bought the combo kit, Centurion and DL. It came with 1 key for tuning a single bike, (you can buy as many tuning keys as needed, 1 used per bike) and 1 key for the diagnostic stuff. Key has to be installed into a USB port for the software to run. I haven't had much time to learn about it, but the main reason I purchased it was to be able to recal speedos on touring models. I have so many customers who complain about the GPS speed not being close to the speedo reading, and the DL allows me to recal the speedo without re-flashing the ECM. I have successfully used it on late model touring bikes (6 speed), but am unable to do so with late model softails/dynas (Can bus bikes). I can also save a copy of the original map, and reflash that back in ICOE. Again, this function works well on touring but not can bus bikes. Need to give up sleeping and eating so I have more time to learn this stuff

[Powerglides]

I use DL. Originally, DL and Centurion used separate boxes. The hardware was upgraded to deal with the Canbus bikes, and this current version now uses the same communication box for both DL and Centurion. The latest communication cable has a splitter for Canbus and J1850, as well as an input for 2 external wideband controllers.
DL also supports MM and Buell.
The communication box connects to a PC via a USB cable (earlier version was RS232). The box itself does not assign itself to the ECM, as this is done with a USB stick (which is also plugged into the computer). The advantage of this, is that the customer only pays for the "key", which is relatively low cost. A different key is used when using Centurion.
There is also a software updater and a link for remote support.
The Centurion key does not assign itself to the ECM, and the DL key only assigns if a map is being flashed into the ECM. It is not necessary to assign a DL key to read the ECM, or use the strip chart function.
The strip chart (data logging) can be open simultaneously with any of the tuning tables, so, for example, when the VE tables are open, the strip chart will show the exact throttle position (and/or MAP) so that we can be precisely in the cell being evaluated, with less influence from the surrounding cells.
There is an auto tune function that will recalculate, and populate, the VE value in the cell, using the AFR reading from the sensor.
The stock narrow bands can be used when in closed loop.
DL can receive inputs from different wideband controllers, that are selected from the Options menu. currently the following can be used,
TR-M300
LM1
LC1
Wego (DTT)
UEGO (AEM)
AFM-1000
M-300 (PLX)
SM-AFR (PLX)
Dynapro 2000
Superflow
Delphi stock O2
Wideband Commander
Techno Research have upped their game recently, and there are some more features in the pipeline.

[eddfive]

To answer some of the questions posed already.

When you buy the system Direct Link and Centurion are included in one package. Direct Link keys for tuning the bikes and one Centrurion key for diagnostics. Direct Link key locks to VIN on bike and are single bike specific, Centurion key allows for all diagnostics and does not lock to bike so can be used on any bike Delphi or Marelli.

Powerglides covered most of the newest features.

The newest software will do speedo calibration on a CAN bike, I just did one a week ago. If any problems call Sandro at Technoresearch and he can remotely hook into your computer with Teamviewer and see why it might not be working.

Here is a link that shows most of the newest features working. http://www.youtube.com/user/TechnoResearch

There are many future items in the pipeline at Technoresearch for Direct Link and Centurion, we can discuss those when it is the right time. I know Stroker has wanted blank ECU marry capability, it is coming, do not have a release date yet.

One item that is very powerful is the data logging capability in Direct Link. Once you hook in the WIdeband controller you can use the data logging/strip chart function to tune any of the other ECU based tuning systems out there. The data log from the strip chart can be exproted in a .txt file format which makes it usable for Excel. This was the only way to tune the CAN bikes when they came out in 2011.

Ed

Ed

[FLTRI]

Ed,
The questions that seems universal with flash tuners are:
After I get tuned what do I get to leave with?
1) Do I have my calibration?
2) If I breakdown in the middle of Bum"Potty mouth" Egypt can I go to the nearest HD dealer and expect DL to be able to reprogram/reformat the ECM if a tech feels it necessary?
3) If I go to a rally for example, purchase a new exhaust system and the vendor will install and tune my bike with his Dyno.
4)What will he need to retune my bike? The USB dongle? The DL software program? Anything else?
5) With TTS and SESPT you need the software and the communication dongle and cables.
Same with DL? Used to be you needed to invest over $5,000 before you could start tuning bikes. Is that still the story?
Bob

[wurk_truk]

I have two Innovate LC1s to use for this.  Last night, I had to make a 'box' to be able to use the LC1s.  Remember, Innovate stuff is for CARS and not bikes.  They sent 'kits' in a bag, loose, to install a LED and pushbutton in the dashboard.  I mounted two LEDs and two pushbuttons into a small fiberglass enclosure.  Worked good.  Heated up and calibrated using the on board UEGOs that are part of the systems.  Only thing needed to be done was program the LC1s to the correct voltage curve for the widebands.  Easy, with the Innovate software.

I have to make up a cord from the controllers to the DL box.  Have some Herko Blocks installed on the bike, too.

I purchased this system as it seems to way more comprehensive than say... a twin scan.

Bob, don't take this too awful personal like you might.  I AM on your side... ya know... TTS and all, right?
You REALLY need to get out more.  All of the automated functions that a TTS, etc can do?  This can do, too.  Auto fill VEs, etc.  Nothing like DM3, as far as I can see.

A cool feature is to be able to use the bikes own NB O2 sensors, AND use wide bands all in the same tune.

Yes, one would need a DL to reprogram a bike.  ANd, no...  I don't expect the TTS bull"Potty mouth" about this.  It takes a 'tuning' key to load into the ECM.  The 'move' is for some shops to use these 'keys'.  They use a PV and tune with a license and send the customer down the road.  You know as well as I do, that the folks on all of these various forums are in SUCH a minority.  Most wish a nice bike and NO MORE fooling with it, right?  The customer will need a 'key' and someone with DL up and running to reprogram a tune.  But...  The ECM is NOT locked out from the DT.

DL offers this.  Looks like it offers a lot more, too.  Bleed ABS.  Reset key Fobs, etc, too.

List price is like $999.00 for the system.  Each 'key' is like $200 list.

My ONLY bitch so far, is once a key is used, it doesn't look like the tuner can have a copy THAT WORKS ON THE BIKE, if the owner of the 'key' looses it. (the 'keys' are Thumb drives programmed to work with the DL).

Bob, these are some guys that LISTEN... just like you feel Steve 'listens".  I'm going to hit up Techno over this 'key' thing...  having workable copies for those bikes that tune.

I have a Twin Scan, Mike.  I'm thinking of this as a TS on steroids.  I shall see, won't I?

[HV]

So much for keeping this thread CIVIL ...Thanks BOB 

[wurk_truk]

It IS civil.  Bob has previously asked about 'automated' wide band software.  He has talked to other members here (on the phone) about Twin Scan.  I will later call him to give my views on this.  Bob hasn't realized to what extent all of us use automated software and has been thinking open loop tuners 'sniff' and build a map.  It's NOT the case, and here, with Direct Link, is a fine example to show HIM.

So ya know...  I answered in this thread particularly for BOB.  Once he realizes how good some of the off the wall  software really is...  he will better understand why some of us like it.  I LIKE the Twin Scan.  Hope to like the DL.  Sample both cylinders at once and... having quite a few tables that can be adjusted... whats NOT to like?

HAHA!  $5k to start tuning?  I'm well over $21k and still counting and... have NOT tuned the first bike on a dyno, yet.

Simply put... I feel there is NO tuner that can work coast-to-coast.  SEPST comes closest, but for the tune aspects, one would need the VCI it was tuned with and a copy of their cal.

[eddfive]

Here you go Bob:

1-You will have your calibration as it is stored on PC/laptop. In my case I send the calibration to my customers by e-mail and then they put it on another flash drive and carry it on the bike with the Direct Link key.

2-As I said in another post with you Direct Link has tuning centers all over the World and a lot of Harley dealers have it as well. If you need to have the bike re-flashed find them on the Technoresearch website. Only ones not listed are CA tuning centers as they choose not to be. You can also call Technoresearch and they can tell you where they are as well. This tuning center list is changing all the time so it might be best to call Tehcnoresearch and ask.

3-If your customer is "dumb" enough to get this work done at a Rally then more power to him and good luck.

4-If the rally tuner has the Direct link box and cables that is all that is needed to re-flash and tune. If the customer has his original tune file it can be modified or he can purchase a new DL key and have it tuned, or the tuner can start over and re-tune with the customers DL key. The key point is that the Rally tuner needs to have the Direct link box, the Direct Link USB key and the cables. With the Autocreate feature rally tunes can be done easily. Technoresearch also supplies many base maps for model years bikes through 2013. These are just starter tune files and will need to be tuned for specific bike.

5-The investment for the dyno tuner is approx$600.00, this get you the Direct Link/Centurion box, the cable that will do both 4 pin and 6 pin and marrelli, and (1) DL key which can be resold to a customer and the Centurion Key. Future investment is the cost of the Direct Link key which list is $319.00/ea, discounted if you buy larger quantity. You then turn around and sell the Direct Link key to customers for what you need and charge the customer for the tune on top of it.

My prices have been the same since 2007 for DL and Tune.

Ed

[wurk_truk]

The list price for a Tuning key is simply WAY too high.  Should be $200 like PV sells licenses for, LIST.  This WILL be an issue for me, and I guess I will sell keys at $200.  To me?  The whole idea of 'key' tuning is to offer a substantial savings to the customer.  Roeder Racing (Harley Tuner) sells PV tunes for $500 OTD!!!!!  Chad CAN tune, too.  Competition does matter to a point. 

Anyways, with this tuner, the wide bands are NOT included.  Neither is a controller(s) for the wide bands.  So, there will be an expense to make this platform work to its best ability.  For extra cost, one can buy a two channel from Techno made by PLX.  Also, one can use the WEGO from a Twin Scan.  I chose to use two LC1s, because I have a set, NIB from an experiment I was going to do.  I am also going to end up using some NTK sensors for a difference I wish to see.  I COULD have used a LMR-2, but it is still NIB, and I will eventually sell that.

From what I can tell, the DTT wego can be used out of the box.  Me, all I had to do was set my O2 slopes to match the software.  EZ with Innovate stuff.  The curve is 0vdc=5afr and 5vdc=20afr.  Linear curve, too.  SO no BS during set-up.

Having an offboard device that CAN use the NB O2s while ON the bike will make this a really nice tuner.  Like the rest of the Flash Tuners on the market.  I feel to make the ECM "Happy" these sensors MUST be used if tuning closed loop sections.  Steve HAS taught some good stuff.  HAPPY ECM being the foremost for CL tuning.

Anyone contemplating this needs to budget around a $Grand to get it off of the ground.

Ed IS the reason I purchased this tuning system.

[FLTRI]

Here you go Bob:

1-You will have your calibration as it is stored on PC/laptop. In my case I send the calibration to my customers by e-mail and then they put it on another flash drive and carry it on the bike with the Direct Link key. DL key does not store the calibration. The owner will receive his cal via email and purchase a thumb drive to copy the cal to.

2-As I said in another post with you Direct Link has tuning centers all over the World and a lot of Harley dealers have it as well. If you need to have the bike re-flashed find them on the Technoresearch website. Only ones not listed are CA tuning centers as they choose not to be. You can also call Technoresearch and they can tell you where they are as well. This tuning center list is changing all the time so it might be best to call Tehcnoresearch and ask.
What, if anything, can be done by a shop without the requisite equipment? Is there any way out other than to buy another tuning device?

3-If your customer is "dumb" enough to get this work done at a Rally then more power to him and good luck.
I believe intelligent people also have purchased performance products at rallies. Ie: Kuryakin and Speeds shows up with the performance products and the tuning products that make them work.

4-If the rally tuner has the Direct link box and cables that is all that is needed to re-flash and tune. If the customer has his original tune file it can be modified or he can purchase a new DL key and have it tuned, or the tuner can start over and re-tune with the customers DL key. The key point is that the Rally tuner needs to have the Direct link box, the Direct Link USB key and the cables.
Other flash tuners only need the dongle software and cables to be successfully used to program the ECM without special dealer-only interface boxes.

5-The investment for the dyno tuner is approx$600.00, this get you the Direct Link/Centurion box, the cable that will do both 4 pin and 6 pin and marrelli, and (1) DL key which can be resold to a customer and the Centurion Key. Future investment is the cost of the Direct Link key which list is $319.00/ea, discounted if you buy larger quantity. You then turn around and sell the Direct Link key to customers for what you need and charge the customer for the tune on top of it.
Sounds like you make a few bucks more than we do on the other flash tuners.
My prices have been the same since 2007 for DL and Tune.
..and mine haven't changed since 2003.

Ed

Thanks for your answers and I believe it shows there are just as many issues as other tuning devices and products. To me its bout what provides the most efficient tune for the best investment by the tuner and customer. Good food for thought.
Bob

[mayor]

I use DL. Originally, DL and Centurion used separate boxes. The hardware was upgraded to deal with the Canbus bikes, and this current version now uses the same communication box for both DL and Centurion. The latest communication cable has a splitter for Canbus and J1850, as well as an input for 2 external wideband controllers. 

so the DL/Centurion box has connections for wideband controllers?  is this just for the techno research controller:
http://www.technoresearch.com/index.php?pid=69

if I am reading their website correctly, you would need two of their wide band boxes.  An idea of the cost for them?  can you connect another after market controller (I'm not smart enough and way to lazy to build boxes like wurk  ) ?   
   

If the rally tuner has the Direct link box and cables that is all that is needed to re-flash and tune. If the customer has his original tune file it can be modified or he can purchase a new DL key and have it tuned, or the tuner can start over and re-tune with the customers DL key. The key point is that the Rally tuner needs to have the Direct link box, the Direct Link USB key and the cables. With the Autocreate feature rally tunes can be done easily. Technoresearch also supplies many base maps for model years bikes through 2013. These are just starter tune files and will need to be tuned for specific bike.

so the DL is not locked to both bike and DL/Centurion box, meaning that anyone who has a box can tune with the DL USB key?   

The investment for the dyno tuner is approx$600.00, this get you the Direct Link/Centurion box, the cable that will do both 4 pin and 6 pin and marrelli, and (1) DL key which can be resold to a customer and the Centurion Key. Future investment is the cost of the Direct Link key which list is $319.00/ea, discounted if you buy larger quantity. You then turn around and sell the Direct Link key to customers for what you need and charge the customer for the tune on top of it.   

So once the tuning station buys the DL/Centurion box, they just need to buy the USB keys per bike?  It looks like this could be a nice option for customers who don't necessarily need the bells and whistles of being able to flash their own bikes.  If list is around $319 for the key, that a nice "in between" cost..and the tuning key can go with the bike. Yes it's more than a flash tuning license with the PV, but the PV is limited to only the shop's PV that locked to the bike.  It's less than TTS, but it doesn't offer the bike owner a self tuning option.  I doubt most folks want that anyway.   

If I read correctly, the DL does not lock out the ECM from being flashed by other flash tuners.  Is that correct? So, if say the bike is flashed with DL, the owner can always get the bike flashed with a PV, SESPT, or TTS at another location if they decide to change their set up and have a different tuner to do the tune? 

[Powerglides]

Mayor, the DL box accepts inputs from various wideband controllers. There is a list of what is currently supported at the end of my original post. I use two Innovate LM1s. You are not limited to using the TR controllers. A plug and relevant terminals are supplied with the new cables to assist with hooking up the outputs from whatever controllers are used. I assume that the TR one is already wired.
The key only locks to the ECM, so the bike could be tuned elsewhere using the same key and a diffent DL communication box.
DL does not lock out anything else, so Digital Technician can be used as normal, and any other tuning software can be subsequently used to reflash the ECM.
If the bike owner wishes to alter the tune himself, then he will need to purchase the box and cables.

[mayor]

sorry Boz, I did see the list on your first post...just forgot that it was there.      Thanks for your input.  If I mind correctly, you are using this system a good bit.  In your original post, you mentioned that the stock narrow bands can be used to collect data to populate closed loop ve cells.  Is there any type of histogram like TTS that lets you know which cells have had data collected for them?  if so, does it display that on the computer monitor?   

Thanks for your answers and I believe it shows there are just as many issues as other tuning devices and products. To me its bout what provides the most efficient tune for the best investment by the tuner and customer. Good food for thought.

I don't disagree that each systems have their faults, but each also seem to have some nice features.  The PV and DR both offer multi sensor tuning (narrow and wide simultaneously), which is a fairly nice feature.  From what I learned in Cinci, the DL also has software that takes all the collected data and builds the calibrations in an automatic format..much like Frank's software I'm assuming (although, haven't used Frank's software...so I really don't know  ). 

[eddfive]

Not neccesarily a histogram but they use a strip chart that you can move the cursur automatically or manually to look at points. When running the bike in Strip Chart mode all of the parameters needed for the AutoCreate/Map will be displayed in real time so you can see what is being tuned or not tuned. When you select the AutoCrate/Map button the data will be filled in for both Front and Rear VE's exactly in the order you hit the cells on the dyno. If you missed any cells they will not be changed and will be easily seen. So it first changes the color of the cells telling you there is data in the cell and then it goes back and calculates the final VE value from that run for each cell.

Just about any marketed wideband controller will hook up to Direct link. If it is not on the list and has ouput capability I am sure it can be added.

The AutoCreate/map feature is very nice and makes it very quick. The only key here is how well the dyno is run to collect the data. You can tune both Accel and Decel regions of the VE tables if you run the dyno correctly. In most cases on stock or mild builds the VE tables can be dialed in in 2 dyno runs, this is from zero throttle to WOT throttle. Can not emphasize enough, it really depends on how accurately you run the dyno.

Each flash ECU tuner out there has unique features. Direct Link is designed and made for the tuner and is also priced so it is easy on the customer. Once you make the initial investment in the Direct Link/Centurion product, the payback from selling the Direct Link keys will make for a fast return on that investment. It is like anything else a tuner has bought, dyno, wideband controllers, vacuum pump,computers, etc.etc., you want the return on the investment to be quick.

[fatboy]

ED, are you the tuner in Dallas?

[mayor]

yes, Ed is from The Dyno Difference:
http://www.thedynodifference.com/

[BVHOG]

I have the DL stuff and have used it with great success, The master box is currently back at Techno for the latest upgrades. Hope to use it more in the future as it is a VERY affordable tuning system.
If I were in your shoes Mayor and still relatively new to dyno tuning I would install a PV on my personal bike and use the license feature for customers unless they want to purchase the entire unit with screen, most don't give a crap about seeing how it works they just want it to work. As a dyno owner I am sure your shop owner can get dealer pricing on the PV units which is quite affordable.   The lockout of the tts is just one more potential issue waiting to pop up in the future. At least with the DL or PV the ecm will always be accessible. I wonder how some of these things will go down in 6-8 years after these bikes have changed hands and the MTE and dongle have not.

[mayor]

relatively new?  heck, even that's giving me way too much credit.   

We already have a shop PV.    My friend is set up as a DJ dealer, and the tune license is very reasonable.  This is one feature I like about the PV, and also the DL system.  Most guys just want their bike tuned, they don't care how that happens. 

I've only done the one bike with the PV and I know the software has improved since, but I would prefer to have a histogram on the computer monitor to watch rather than the small screen on the handlebars. DJ told me that they were working on that, but I don't think that that will be anytime soon.  I decided not to go that route for my personal bike, after great thought I will be doing that one with TTS (single bike unit, not dual).  I thought about the PV, or even DL, but decided to say with what I know right now.   I'm sure once I lock something to the bike, I will have buyers remorse and would have wished that I tried a different system.  There's just so many good options out there, that it's tough to stick with just one. 

[wurk_truk]

I just purchased a very slightly used PV.  I was able to get it, because THAT owner DID have buyers remorse and went back to TTS.  I am convinced that move was a 'comfort' thing only.  He knew TTS and was comfortable with it is ALL.

Crazy world we live in.  My shop NOW has a shop PV... for whenever I get around to playing with it.  Me?  With a PV?  Will wonders never cease!!!!!

As opposed to say... 5 years ago, the tuning market for HD products has nicely blossomed.  Everyone has a choice and NO pick is really that bad of a choice, either.

I am having some difficulty getting my Centruion to 'talk' to or even 'see' the bike.  It won't find a com port that works.  Going to call Ed and Sandro.

[wurk_truk]

Centurion hooks right into the ECM.  I had Sandro use Team Viewer and he hooked up new software and seems to work.

Cool!  Talk about service.

[mayor]

   good to hear that they are very customer oriented. 

[strokerjlk]

Can not emphasize enough, it really depends on how accurately you run the dyno.

That's the key.
Some guys got some strange ideas .
Don't give all your secrets away. 

[wurk_truk]

 

I finally got the Centurion to talk to the bike.  Played with different things and looked over data that is used for tuning.  I have NO MTEs for either ECM.  So, at first, I thought I was out of luck because the TTS had the Centurion locked out.

After Sandro played with some of my drivers, it all came up nicely.  Techno Research has their "Potty mouth" together.  From the phone being answered with a "Hi! John", to Sandro using teamviewer to correct the drivers in MY PC.  Very very first rate!!!  ANYBODY wishing to try their hand at tuning more than just their own bike...  This system would be REALLY nice.  The team at Techno is there to help any purchaser work the system.  I LIKE that! Anyone who has used off board crap like Teamviewer should have a feeling what I am sayin.

I'm at the point where I no longer think "Potty mouth" tastes like Ice Cream.  I wish to start out learning TWO vastly different tuning systems.  One I know...  and one that I may up thinking is better than sliced bread... (right now... I am VERY happy with this purchase, from folks like Ed and Boz with help, and Techno at the ready to SHOW how to work the PC, etc.)  Very Nice.  It IS nice to get real live help as opposed to "Potty mouth"*ing around online here, and asking question after question.

I am awaiting on a couple of MTEs,  then I will REALLY play.

Mike? I think you would like this very much.  For a complete set up it WILL be expensive.  But, a $1000 to get this up and running is cool by me.  Also, if you already have a WEGO or two hanging around...  you can set things up to work with these, or it is MY understanding that Sandro will set things up for you to do so.  Most will use either the WBos from Techno.  But I had some LC1s from Innovate and feel that these will be great.

I am tempted to try out that LMR-2 I bought.  Now that?  Would be the cats ass for sure.  One could log AFR data both ways at the same time! (innovate software and the DL).  Right now, with the LC1s...  I can log one channel with Innovate and BOTH channels with the DL.  Talk about a level of good certainty. (I can only do one channel with the LC1 due to I only have TWO serial ports on the PC.  I would need three).

ANd... as opposed to Twin Scan, etc... one can use BOTH the NB and the WB to do a tune.