tuning questions RE: piggy back tuning systems on closed loop equipped bikes?

[Buglet]

    Mayor
     Just to let you AT 110 and AT 120 is the same so you just need one and it works on both. The only difference is one has a 4 plug and the other has a 6 plug connector which is only  for power. I made up adapters with a switch and then I hook it up to the battery works great or I can plug it in the diagnostic plug. And as far as using blocks I decide I rather put in the bungs. so far all my customers are ok with that and have no problem paying for that service.

[Buglet]

   One more thing I forgot is both PV are the same. If you do the licence thing all you need is one and buy the cable for the other one from DJ

[mayor]

I agree completely Guy.     You stated the same position I've had for a long time regarding how dyno tuning is always secondary, since it's something that you don't always "see" and it happens after all the other money has been spent.  One thing you missed though...the consumer has to spend anywhere from $200-$550 or so just to be able to get the tune (flash tuner, piggy back module, etc), then there is the cost of the tune on top of that. 

thanks Buglet.  I haven't met anyone local that has a can bus bike yet, but when I do...I'll be asking for some wiring help.     yep, knew that the PV unit was the same between the two.  I had already talked to DJ regarding the cable to do the can bus bikes with our PV. 

[Powerglides]

  That is a very well written post by Guydoc, and so true. The problem is trying to educate the market. It's like trying to sell wind. We can't touch it, hold it, smell it, or stick it in a pretty box. We can only feel it's effect. Whilst I don't like anyone looking over my shoulder when I'm  machining or spannering, I do invite customers to sit in on the tuning, providing they leave their mobile phone outside, and don't interrupt me. I take the time to explain what I'm doing, and why, at convenient times during the process. Those who take this opportunity always express surprise regarding what's involved, and are grateful for this basic education.
Much of my work now, though, is complete turn key packages, where the price includes all parts, labour, machining, DL key, and the tuning.  This way there are no hidden surprises. Potential customers should always be advised of the tuning cost when picking a build and comparing prices.

[strokerjlk]

But mayor, there's also a lot of folks, maybe even the majority, who don't know TTS from DL from PV from SERT/SESPT from Fuel Pak, etc. They don't understand downloader vs Piggyback and don't really  have any idea about how their FI bike gets fuel and air into the cylinders or how it is ignited all by the ECM. How many times have you heard, "My bike's got a 'Race Tuner' on it"? So even a basic understanding of how the bike might be tuned or, worse, that it even needs to be tuned, is higher order thinking, and they just don't have the knowledge for that. It's not that they're "dumb". They just don't have the basic knowledge because they've never taken the time to acquire it. I get that. I truly think many folks are shocked when they put their feet into the pool of fuel injected Harley performance and find out what it costs. So they get motor work done, new pipe, new AC, maybe cams, whatever. Now they're trapped. Bike will run like crap unless it's tuned. But they just spent all that money and now they have to get it tuned? For how much? That's kind of how the thinking goes. And, unfortunately, the tuning process comes only after they've spent several hundred or more on the other performance stuff.

I'm not defending this shortsightedness by folks, only attempting to explain it. And it gets even more complicated when a person puts their trust into the dealer that sold them the bike, installed all the go fast goodies, and SAID they could tune it. But the bike gets poorly tuned and runs like crap and then poorly tuned again and runs like crap. That is a very sinking feeling. So after having spent a few hundred more or maybe several hundred more on "tunes" and ending up with a poor running bike they also eventually learn that not all guys who dyno tune are created equal. It's a very expensive learning process though.

I wish there was a way to mass inform folks about just the basics involved in hopping up a FI Harley and that a good tune HAS to be budgeted as well. And that the tune will be expensive. But I'll bet that, by the time you guys on this forum who tune bikes see a LOT of customers, they've already been through the mill I try to describe above. And so they wince when they hear another $450 for a tune. And by the way, I think $450 is CHEAP for a good tune. I've posted that before. I do understand the investment in time and equipment, the knowledge you guys have to acquire, and the time it takes to do all that. I also understand that there's potential risk. Unfortunately the tune comes at the end of the whole process. The tune comes after someone has spent a grand for a pretty pipe, $500 for a cool AC, maybe $800 on cams and cam installation, or more on "big bores", Screaming Eagle heads, etc. And they can see, touch, and smell all those things. A tune? Well that's just a concept. And they can't touch it or see it or smell it until after it's done correctly. So folks get really gunshy when the price of the tune comes up for discussion, especially if they've already paid to have the bike "tuned" somewhere else.

Again I'm not defending folks for thinking $450 is too much. Only explaining how they get to that point. If I tuned bikes and got really good at it and had a solid reputation for being good at it, I'd probably charge more than $450. Build it and they will come.

Good stuff Doc.
Lots of guys with stage 2's running around , making less power than a well tuned stage 1 also.

On the other side of the coin.
Don't get me wrong with how I put this , and I am not talking about anyone in particular.
Some customers get their money's worth on build information alone .
It's all part of it . You can spend 2-5 hrs worth of phone conversations, discussing build options. Then they go to someone else for the tune. Or you spend a couple hrs discussing build options , only to have the bike delivered with a POS exhaust . Now the guy has his feelings hurt when the thing comes in 10 hp under what you told them . But they though they knew better. That is frustrating.
Then there is the contact after the tune .
Some guys you just don't want to be married to forever.
Again ... No one in particular, just the other side of the tuners life. So to speak.
I love what I do or I wouldn't do it. Lord knows you won't get rich.
mike you will find when you work a full time day job , and do this .
Their isn't enough time in the day , sometimes to talk to 5-6 guys on the phone . 

[rigidthumper]

"Some customers get their money's worth on build information alone .
It's all part of it . You can spend 2-5 hrs worth of phone conversations, discussing build options. Then they go to someone else for the tune. Or you spend a couple hrs discussing build options , only to have the bike delivered with a POS exhaust . Now the guy has his feelings hurt when the thing comes in 10 hp under what you told them . But they though they knew better. That is frustrating. "

Like the gent I spent all winter guiding towards a 120R, providing opinion on  which components to keep, which to change, which to modify, which AC, pipe, etc. Even helped him wire his ACR harness in anticipation of doing the build.

Then he shows up a few weeks later with a Jims 131, installed somewhere else, isnt happy with the bike or dyno sheet, and they tuned it with a COBRA 2000 and wants to know if I can "hook him up, since we're buds"?!?

I took one look at his V&H big shot duals, and then his stock injectors, and wondered why I stay in this circus arena.

[FLTRI]

Edited per stroker's request:
Here's some Dyno fun... Once upon a time...
I had a customer bring his new build back for his final tune after 1st service. This is to do a check-and-correct for AFR and any timing corrections need based on customer comments..

So i put the bike on the Dyno and proceeded to run the bike during warm up and OMG!!! It was blubbery rich...like 11.0-12.0:1 !!! WTF?? These bikes leave between 13-14.5:1 depending on load.

So I called the customer and asked him if he noticed the bike ran differently over time. He said he noticed it running different after he got it back from the dealer.

I asked him what they did and he said some "chrome and new tires".

I asked him if the shop did anything else. He then proceeded to tell me on the advice of the parts guy after "I told him about my new build he asked my injectors if I had heard about the new 5.3 Screamin' Eagle injectors.  He told me I would get better performance with my build if I "upgraded" to these new, bigger injectors so I had the shop put them in while doing the other work." 

Unfortunately he had been riding the bike in that "fat" state for over a hundred miles and wasted the O2 sensors and plugs.

Once they were replaced I adjusted the injector size, AFR went to the original 13.0-14.0 and after the check-and-correct the customer went home a campy hamper.

Just another day at the dyno cell.

Bob

[strokerjlk]

Once they were replaced I adjusted the injector size, AFR went to the original 13.0-14.0

you adjusted the injector constant,and the AFR went right back to the original AFR that the smaller injector had with a smaller constant.
amazing simply amazing

[FLTRI]

Once they were replaced I adjusted the injector size, AFR went to the original 13.0-14.0

you adjusted the injector constant,and the AFR went right back to the original AFR that the smaller injector had with a smaller constant.
amazing simply amazing

Ok. Let me say it more slowly. Break-in tune was done to 13-14 AFR. Customer takes bike and unbeknownst to me, returns with larger injectors. The engine runs a ton richer than when I tuned it with stock injectors. I say WTF? Still with me?
Soooooo, after I found out what he had done I set the injector size to what was put into the bike (5.3) AFTER the break-in tune.
Guess what? The AFR returned to where I had set it during the break-in tune. All was well again.
Amazing? Naw. "Potty mouth" happens.
Bob

[strokerjlk]

I thought I was following you.
you dont need to go slower.just start off...once upon a time.

[FLTRI]

I thought I was following you.
you dont need to go slower.just start off...once upon a time.

Done

[mayor]

play nice you two.