can narrow bands be used for to tune to 13.2 @ WOT

[mayor]

Sorry,  not buying it as it makes no sense to me even looking at the tts software. I could go into other reasons why the tts table tells me that is not right but I think it would not do any good.   

I gave you a perfect analogy and you say your sorry you can't buy it?
You obviously know some secret tts tuning stuff like ToBeFrank...and that's OK.
Maybe it's best for us not to share that knowledge?

Bob, you better be careful in what you are insinuating.  I read your comments as very accusatory, and we will have none of that here.  There are two basic things that you need to understand based on the above, coyote seemed to be referring to the TTS chart you posted and TTS is not the only ones with the ability to dig into the Delphi system and develop tuning systems.  Let's not be making any general assumptions that the only way that someone can understand the Delphi system is to have broken the TTS software.  It seems that this is a common theme among some of Steve's supporters, and one that can be quite insulting to those that are not guilty of any wrong doing. 

Quoting my self,

And on might ask one self, why do this, if possible.
Isn't VE tuning good enough? 

Why bother when we have a perfectly good way of tuning with NB sensors already?

because the current Vtuning does come with some limits that can allow tuning holes in the VE tables when the straight vtune software is used and not validated with an external AFR meter (like with closed course tunes).  Based on Bob's comments, Steve must recognize this as a weakness in the system and is working to come up with a fix. 

[Thumper Buttercup]

I've got a question along these lines, when Doug tuned our bike the first thing he did
was pull the narrow band 02 sensors and install the wide band sensors, in talking to
him I got the feeling that Doug did not believe in the ability of the narrow band 02
sensors to do the proper job.

[wurk_truk]

I've got a question along these lines, when Doug tuned our bike the first thing he did
was pull the narrow band 02 sensors and install the wide band sensors, in talking to
him I got the feeling that Doug did not believe in the ability of the narrow band 02
sensors to do the proper job.

Two kinds of tuners right now, those that do NOT believe NBos can tune and those that DO.  Your bike has a 100% open loop tune, I imagine.  I use BOTH.  NBos for any closed loop portion of a tune, and WBos for any open loop portion of a tune.  Not too hard to do, either.  Use TTS for closed loop with v-tune, and having Herko blocks in place while doing that, use the dyno O2s to sniff WOT.

[ultraswede]

Quote from: ultraswede on Today at 07:57:19 PM

Quoting my self,


Quote

And on might ask one self, why do this, if possible.
Isn't VE tuning good enough? 


Why bother when we have a perfectly good way of tuning with NB sensors already?


because the current Vtuning does come with some limits that can allow tuning holes in the VE tables when the straight vtune software is used and not validated with an external AFR meter (like with closed course tunes).  Based on Bob's comments, Steve must recognize this as a weakness in the system and is working to come up with a fix. 

Thanks for the answer. One of the few in this thread......

[TXP]

OK, enough of questioning the origins of each others birth in this thread. Why not, post up how this stuff works or at least YOUR understanding of how it works on a thread instead of asking questions of others and than pouncing on whatever answer is given in response to said question. The (whatever answer is given) is wrong approach obviousley is not working. Saying your just trying to help those want to learn is wearing thin as well. Tell how it works or at least how you think it works and let others respond to THAT.
Then maybe would could have a civilized conversation instead of a pissing contest. There is absolutely no need to piss off a large number of contributing members for no good reason that I can see. Just a thought!

[mayor]

Two kinds of tuners right now, those that do NOT believe NBos can tune and those that DO.  Your bike has a 100% open loop tune, I imagine.  I use BOTH.  NBos for any closed loop portion of a tune, and WBos for any open loop portion of a tune.  Not too hard to do, either.  Use TTS for closed loop with v-tune, and having Herko blocks in place while doing that, use the dyno O2s to sniff WOT.

   

[Scotty]

OK, enough of questioning the origins of each others birth in this thread. Why not, post up how this stuff works or at least YOUR understanding of how it works on a thread instead of asking questions of others and than pouncing on whatever answer is given in response to said question. The (whatever answer is given) is wrong approach obviousley is not working. Saying your just trying to help those want to learn is wearing thin as well. Tell how it works or at least how you think it works and let others respond to THAT.
Then maybe would could have a civilized conversation instead of a pissing contest. There is absolutely no need to piss off a large number of contributing members for no good reason that I can see. Just a thought!

Right from the moment this thread was started and the way in which it was started is completely wrong. Want to help people then post findings and discuss not this crap with no one learning anything other than penis size.

[ToBeFrank]

IMO, Coyote, Mayor, and Ron (and Bob for providing the link to data) have effectively answered the question. I'll attempt to summarize:

1) In the range the question applies to, one particular sensor varies by EGT.

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,62905.msg673014.html#msg673014

2) EGT can vary a lot

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,62905.msg673638.html#msg673638

3) The graph Bob linked to has a small sample size (probably 1). Extrapolating this to all sensors would be a leap of faith. We cannot conclude that all sensors will behave the same in this area without many more samples.

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,62905.msg673234.html#msg673234

This is further backed up by looking at the table titled "Typical NBO2 AFR at 1,200F EGO" that Bob linked to. In that table we see that 800mV could be 14.2 or it could be 13.2. 900mV could be 13.2 or it could be 12.5.

http://tuneyourharley.com/biketech/content/narrow-band-o2-sensor

4) As the sensor ages, the response in that area of the sensor changes.

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,62905.msg673051.html#msg673051

Therefore, a simple question does not necessarily have a simple answer. Given all of the above, I think it's fair to say the accuracy of the result could be called into question. I do think it's possible to get in "in the ballpark", but that wasn't the question.

I'd also bet that you could create a calibration curve for a NB sensor and get very accurate results with the NB sensor. However, it would only apply to that particular sensor, and if you have the ability to create a calibration curve, you already have the equipment necessary to tune to whatever AFR you want.

[HD/Wrench]

Two kinds of tuners right now, those that do NOT believe NBos can tune and those that DO.  Your bike has a 100% open loop tune, I imagine.  I use BOTH.  NBos for any closed loop portion of a tune, and WBos for any open loop portion of a tune.  Not too hard to do, either.  Use TTS for closed loop with v-tune, and having Herko blocks in place while doing that, use the dyno O2s to sniff WOT.
[/quote]

I say at that point with the blocks in place use the wide band sensor with a dtt logging both F&R use My Tune to complete the process.. One thing that I still do not like is the extra heat that you have to deal with in closed loop tune vs the open loop.  As well we do a fair amount of dyno break in on brand new engines can it be done in closed yes it can,.. but its a lower temp in open and easier on the guy doing the tuning as well 

[rbabos]

Two kinds of tuners right now, those that do NOT believe NBos can tune and those that DO.  Your bike has a 100% open loop tune, I imagine.  I use BOTH.  NBos for any closed loop portion of a tune, and WBos for any open loop portion of a tune.  Not too hard to do, either.  Use TTS for closed loop with v-tune, and having Herko blocks in place while doing that, use the dyno O2s to sniff WOT.

I say at that point with the blocks in place use the wide band sensor with a dtt logging both F&R use My Tune to complete the process.. One thing that I still do not like is the extra heat that you have to deal with in closed loop tune vs the open loop.  As well we do a fair amount of dyno break in on brand new engines can it be done in closed yes it can,.. but its a lower temp in open and easier on the guy doing the tuning as well 
[/quote]
Steve: I think you just openend up one big whoop ass can of worms on the open loop being cooler. I do agree.
Ron

[redmtrckl]

Two kinds of tuners right now, those that do NOT believe NBos can tune and those that DO.  Your bike has a 100% open loop tune, I imagine.  I use BOTH.  NBos for any closed loop portion of a tune, and WBos for any open loop portion of a tune.  Not too hard to do, either.  Use TTS for closed loop with v-tune, and having Herko blocks in place while doing that, use the dyno O2s to sniff WOT.

Ditto.
Worked fine on my bike
I really like those Herko thingamagigs.

[joe_lyons]

In the PV software you can change the closed loop parameters to be able to make the whole map closed loop and have below 14.2.  Pretty much make the range from lambda of 600-1.056 I think is what it is.  I might just give that a shot for fun after resetting my map run it for a while and see if the VEs come out the same but I will have to wait till the damn rain is done.

[HD/Wrench]

Joe let me knwo how that works for you.. I gave it a try with so-so success  Seems to work in some areas way better than others..

[Herko]

...I have had zero issues with the fuel moto head pipe...

Agreed.


With the quest to gain competency in tuning, there is often focus, time, energy and credence placed in the wrong direction(s).

[Jamie Long]

In the PV software you can change the closed loop parameters to be able to make the whole map closed loop and have below 14.2.  Pretty much make the range from lambda of 600-1.056 I think is what it is.  I might just give that a shot for fun after resetting my map run it for a while and see if the VEs come out the same but I will have to wait till the damn rain is done.

While you have the ability to change the closed loop range with Power Vision, the most important thing to consider you can only use the NB o2 sensors where they are accurate which is at/near stoich which for gasoline is 14.68 +/- approx .35

You may however see this table a "very useful" Power Vision feature in the future

[Jamie Long]

Now power vision has it , and I am running closed loop on my 120 .works great .

So now you can run your bike in closed loop because AFV is disabled?
Can you explain why that works and AFV enabled doesn't.
Bob

CLI = normal closed loop, short term fuel trim, no adaptive learning
AVF/AFF = long term fuel trim, adaptive block learn

[HD/Wrench]

Block learn short term long term  Makes me thing about the old GM handheld tech  .. Watching the numbers bounce around against the long term number..


I found what you are saying with the PV trying to target a richer afr.( just under 14.0)  with NB .

  Still waiting on the answer..  Bob I fail to see the reason for this.. Tell us what you believe or have tested and what you found the results to be.  Unsubscribing on this one filling up my inbox.

[FLTRI]

CLI = normal closed loop, short term fuel trim, no adaptive learning
AVF/AFF = long term fuel trim, adaptive block learn

Jamie can you explain why stroker's bike must have AFV disabled in order to run correctly?
Bob

[FLTRI]

Now power vision has it , and I am running closed loop on my 120 .works great .

CLI = normal closed loop, short term fuel trim, no adaptive learning
AVF/AFF = long term fuel trim, adaptive block learn

Jamie,
Can you explain how running a bike with AFV disabled provides a better running bike than with AFV enabled?

[joe_lyons]

In the PV software you can change the closed loop parameters to be able to make the whole map closed loop and have below 14.2.  Pretty much make the range from lambda of 600-1.056 I think is what it is.  I might just give that a shot for fun after resetting my map run it for a while and see if the VEs come out the same but I will have to wait till the damn rain is done.

While you have the ability to change the closed loop range with Power Vision, the most important thing to consider you can only use the NB o2 sensors where they are accurate which is at/near stoich which for gasoline is 14.68 +/- approx .35

You may however see this table a "very useful" Power Vision feature in the future

I know I will be out of the good range of the sensor but I just wana do it for S&G to see how it does.

[uglyDougly]

  There are two ways to confirm that the NBO2s are working or placed properly, one is to have an exhaust system with bungs for both. The Jackpot pipes do have that.
  Without that capability, you can use the 'blocks' (which I use all the time.) And then compare how well the NBs control to 14.6:1. (or whatever the system is set for.)
  When I have a system with 18mm bungs in the pipes, I prefer to use them. At that point I'd rather spend the time actually tuning the AFRs than dinking with secondary sensor ports. In that case, leaving the system out of closed-loop is the only way I can be sure that a bad NB won't mess with the calibration.
  So, I don't 'not believe' in NB closed-loop operation for good fuel economy. Rather than not checking the function of the sensors, I'll leave it at 14.2:1 in the cruise range.
  I'm already more expensive than anyone else in my area, and spend every bit of the time for which I charge getting the quality I can accept. If someone wants me to spend more time, I know how and am willing to go that extra mile, just not for free.
  I did run into a pipe with the 18mm bung plugs drilled and tapped for 12mm sensors, and couldn't get the plugs out, so I used  my Mindich blocks. When I checked closed-loop operation, I was horrified to find that the AFR in the closed-loop range slowly drifted up to 17:1 then down to 12:1, then back up and wouldn't stabilize. Clearly the NBs were so shrouded by being in the 18mm plugs, that they weren't sampling well enough to operate properly.
  No CL for that puppy!

   Doug
 

[wurk_truk]

Thanks Doug.

[FLTRI]

  I did run into a pipe with the 18mm bung plugs drilled and tapped for 12mm sensors, and couldn't get the plugs out, so I used  my Mindich blocks. When I checked closed-loop operation, I was horrified to find that the AFR in the closed-loop range slowly drifted up to 17:1 then down to 12:1, then back up and wouldn't stabilize. Clearly the NBs were so shrouded by being in the 18mm plugs, that they weren't sampling well enough to operate properly.
  No CL for that puppy!

   Doug

Hey Doug! Good to hear from you.
Had a few of theses "adapted" bungs come by for a tune. Won't spend any time trying to make them work. OL all the way for these.
Bob

[rbabos]

Seems my name gets tossed around here. Agreed, sampling is everything but I'm beginning to wonder if it's the whole answer. My v rod was all closed loop at one point but certain days it had a miss in the 5% tps. 2-3500k range. 20 autotune runs always brought the ve's into the same range with the miss present most days. Can't say it was AFV at play since intagrators were running 100% in the range.  In the end I open looped this area and has to fatten the ve table in the 5%. Miss gone. Drives me nuts how the bike will idle in closed and run every tps area just fine but one exact point. Jamie did mention this area is a problem with v rods. This leads me to think it's an egr problem effecting O2 sampling more than postion itself. Rather than chase the egr table I went with a more predictable open method for the cure. Engine did not like what autotune was trying to feed it.
Ron

[Admiral Akbar]

Seems my name gets tossed around here. Agreed, sampling is everything but I'm beginning to wonder if it's the whole answer. My v rod was all closed loop at one point but certain days it had a miss in the 5% tps. 2-3500k range. 20 autotune runs always brought the ve's into the same range with the miss present most days. Can't say it was AFV at play since intagrators were running 100% in the range.  In the end I open looped this area and has to fatten the ve table in the 5%. Miss gone. Drives me nuts how the bike will idle in closed and run every tps area just fine but one exact point. Jamie did mention this area is a problem with v rods. This leads me to think it's an egr problem effecting O2 sampling more than postion itself. Rather than chase the egr table I went with a more predictable open method for the cure. Engine did not like what autotune was trying to feed it.
Ron

I wonder if some of this issue isn't injector timing.. Especially the low speed stuff.. Dump too much fuel on a closed intake valve and the motor will get an afr that is all over the place.. Yeah you can get better AFRs by pushing the sensor deeper into the center of the pipe but it may no need to be..

Max