Need help with 84 xl lower end

[KatalogKarl]

Went and got this 1984 XL for my gals son. It'll be his first bike. So i picked this up from a friend but he tells me its smoking like a chimney on a winters night. Ran the bike the front cylinder is bad. real bad. So i figure at least the rings are bad. When i get the motor broken down still in the frame I noticed that the front wrist pin had walked its way back and forth scoring the cylinder wall bad. ? where's the wrist pin clip. I found it broken in the bottom of the engine. three little pieces.

So i move the rods around and try to use a feeler gauge to see what is the gap between the rear connecting rod and the flywheels. In the ball park of .022 to .023 thous. the front rod the gap between it and the rear rod is ball park .021 thous. I was told that sometimes these engines are notorious for twisting the wrist pin clip out of one side if there was too much play with the front connecting rod. I spin the flywheels in different clock positions 3-6-9-12 and used a steel ruler to measure the side to side play of the rod while laying the ruler on the deck of the front cylinder.
My problem that i need help with is, What is the correct way to measure side to side play or am i really off the mark here. I have a issues that when the front rod is down at 6 and 9 position, I have a 1/16Th of a inch more play(top of rod is the only part sticking up from the case) than when the rod is at 12 or 3 position. Can i use this measure or is this front rod and accompanying lower end out of limits and needs to be rebuild... Please as always i can find the answer here. Thanks beforehand... Karl      

[Mailman]

Went and got this 1984 XL for my gals son. It'll be his first bike. So i picked this up from a friend but he tells me its smoking like a chimney on a winters night. Ran the bike the front cylinder is bad. real bad. So i figure at least the rings are bad. When i get the motor broken down still in the frame I noticed that the front wrist pin had walked its way back and forth scoring the cylinder wall bad. ? where's the wrist pin clip. I found it broken in the bottom of the engine. three little pieces.

So i move the rods around and try to use a feeler gauge to see what is the gap between the rear connecting rod and the flywheels. In the ball park of .022 to .023 thous. the front rod the gap between it and the rear rod is ball park .021 thous. I was told that sometimes these engines are notorious for twisting the wrist pin clip out of one side if there was too much play with the front connecting rod. I spin the flywheels in different clock positions 3-6-9-12 and used a steel ruler to measure the side to side play of the rod while laying the ruler on the deck of the front cylinder.
My problem that i need help with is, What is the correct way to measure side to side play or am i really off the mark here. I have a issues that when the front rod is down at 6 and 9 position, I have a 1/16Th of a inch more play(top of rod is the only part sticking up from the case) than when the rod is at 12 or 3 position. Can i use this measure or is this front rod and accompanying lower end out of limits and needs to be rebuild... Please as always i can find the answer here. Thanks beforehand... Karl    

  I'd rebuild everything, for two reasons:

- different measurements at different positions is rarely a good thing.

- you had crap in your bottom end.  You may have got all the clip parts, but guess where the cylinder wall parts went ?  That alone makes a thorough cleaning needed, and as long as you're there anyway.........

[rigidthumper]

Every time I've seen the wrist pin pushed out, the rod bearings were going/gone. Usually more damage shown on one side of the female rod than the other. time to rebuild.

[Powerglides]

Most likely that the big end has gone. Rod can then lean over and the wrist pin pushes the clip out. Big Twins tend to it on the drive side rear rod, whilst the Sporties tend to do it on the front rod. It needs to come apart.

[Hillside Motorcycle]

Get the crank pin in approx 5 o'clock position, after spraying the rods nearly free of oil, and check for ANY up/down on the male(front) rod.
If there is any, then it needs to be re-fitted.
Scott

[KatalogKarl]

  Have to Thank you guys for the input. And after checking things out and rattling my brains a bit Hillsidecycle (Scott) sealed it. Both male and female rods are tight in all clock positions especially at 5 o'clock. Some research and talking to the past owners i wonder if this was just poorly put together or maybe because of a slight deformity of the wrist pin shoulder where clip was in. Some of it was narrowed and I wonder if clip never sat right from the get go. I was told that a older biker put this together with whatever worked? And used std.sized pistons to boot? I will never know.
Got with Calif. Phil here and ordered new jugs and pistons Kit. I chose wiseco 10:1 to replace the stock 9:1. Hopefully the pockets are deep enough so i don't run into valves hitting. I also think this bike has stock cams as well. But i don't need to dump a boatload of money in it. Just make it reliable. Still have to look at heads. And then go from there. Thanks again guys...Karl   

[KatalogKarl]

 :pop:So as the story continues the Lower end (as far as looked into is fine) and heads are to be looked at soon. I have a question for any of the guru's like Hillsidecycle or others. My mind is foggy when it comes to these XL's. Have not even laid a wrench or hands on these for many years or moons. The transmission in these are lubed with the motor oil from engine, I vaguely remember someting about drilling a hole in the trans door behind clutch basket to allow the primary  and trans to share as a common galley. I am sorry to say I forgot how or what size of a whole and what effect this would have. Sorry but it was in the early eighties when i touched these and time and goodies   have taken there toll. Like to hear from Scott on this...thanks Karl 

[Mailman]

:pop:So as the story continues the Lower end (as far as looked into is fine) and heads are to be looked at soon. I have a question for any of the guru's like Hillsidecycle or others. My mind is foggy when it comes to these XL's. Have not even laid a wrench or hands on these for many years or moons. The transmission in these are lubed with the motor oil from engine, I vaguely remember someting about drilling a hole in the trans door behind clutch basket to allow the primary  and trans to share as a common galley. I am sorry to say I forgot how or what size of a whole and what effect this would have. Sorry but it was in the early eighties when i touched these and time and goodies   have taken there toll. Like to hear from Scott on this...thanks Karl

  The tranny and primary already share the same fluid, from the factory.  They are NOT lubed with oil from the engine.  Two separate systems.

[Hillside Motorcycle]

Mailman answered it.
The gearbox and primary share common fluid, and the engine oil is seperate.
Scott

[KatalogKarl]

  As i said before its been  long long ago. Okay my goof. For me its tough to recall and without a service manual at hand I am missing alot. I go borrow one from my buds... Thanks Mailman and hillsidecyle.

[Hillside Motorcycle]

You bet.
Scott

[garyajaz]

sign me on the rebuild completly side.
old bike problems already there.  instead of taking it apart several times for several problems.
just do it all at once.

really look at those heads.  (guides)
and I do have some stock  used parts (cranks taken out for strokers)
keep us up on whats happening.

[KatalogKarl]

  Well I figured I'd update a bit here. Racking my brain is probably the best I do in my life. Comes easy to me, So with the help of a bud and not to hear the OL ladies son bitch a storm up (as well as her) I have split the cases yesterday. Like it is always said "might as well do it right hopefully once". Pinion nut is hammered as someone might have used a chisel to get it on or off.
Mainshaft from trans is stuck with drive gear (as splined portion not able to mesh with trans sprocket). I was unable to seperate that to inspect. But trans gears (others) look good as gear dogs are not hammered as some i seen heavyilly raced or beat on.So i'll have to get to a press and push wheels from case.probably sometime today. It was noted that these rods and wheels could of lasted longer but I came this far and might as well do it all. Ah its only money as they say....Oh boy. I'll let you know how things will go..

[KatalogKarl]

  Was able to get some work done on lower end. pressed wheels out of case and split the wheels with some help. Low and behold. I don't know how long this lower end would have lasted. Probably some other issues with this motor some time before. What looked like shellac of some type was used on seam where engine cases split. Found out that the male connecting rod(front) had just enough play at the crank pin to twist in a motion to the right (carb side). It didn't destroy the bearing but it was wearing the cage on right side and left a mark on the right inner flywheel. bushing had marks in them as well. Looked into rods already as I really care not to rebuild these. So that's why so much movement in front rod.
Also found that i have a problem with the clutch basket hub, the rotor magnets came off as if some one glued or epoxied most of them on. A new one is in the upper $300s so I'll what Calif Phil can come up with and a primary chain. As long as the heads aren't toast (yet to be taken apart) I may be able to stay within amounts that I can live with.. For a bike that probably goes for no more than 4k or 3500 in my neck of the woods the ol Lady's kid will have a scoot that will last. This is what he wanted and this is what he gets.....Karl   

[KatalogKarl]

  Starting to get things togother, but I need to ask garyajaz, would you have any clutch baskets for late 1984 on hand. This one here has many of the rotor magnets glued on. Someone has had this apart once before... Send me a pm if you got one...

[garyajaz]

nothing that new.  sorry.
I have 2-3 baskets for 1974 cause I went belt drive with alum clutch basket.
they will not interchange cause of the stator
.  I am cleaning out storage and putting parts in my new trailer at home.
so will be going over the parts I have. (lots)
might just make a list and put in swap meet.  but if/when I do will post here first.

[KatalogKarl]

Thanks garyajaz. but i was to get a new one for $320.00. Pricy yes but old one already had its magnets glued and epoxied on already. So new is better in this case. Seems that a company that was the only game in town(teds cycle) had barrels and prefittied pistons selling as a kit. So I bought them and needing 003.5 for ring end gap its hard to do when barrels are 005 and 005.5 thousands bored already over stock. So off they went back to v-twin. Awaiting there remedy.
Its often discouraging when you only can get one provider for parts. Guess thats what we face when working on a older bike. I'll keep you posted...

[kik]

  

[KatalogKarl]

  so someone said worthless thread without pictures. this may be in 5 different posts so ill start it here.. Barrel and effects of wrist pin slapping around on rod..  [attach=1]

[KatalogKarl]

  I am trying here. But one of those days....

[KatalogKarl]

okay guys please bare with me.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[KatalogKarl]

see how cage is grounded or worn inwards

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[KatalogKarl]

You can see the damages from a wrist pin sliding in and out from rods. reason for snapping sirclip.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[KatalogKarl]

resulting damage from a wobblying wrist pin and broke sirclip

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[KatalogKarl]

  Its a miracle.  posted them. I do not know if this was or is caused by poor balancing or a crappy builder in the past. I don't have flywheels to show  the drill holes(marks) that the right wheel had. Can't answer that, Maybe one of the guru's here might. So off to be rebuilt we go. My ol lady nudges me to make sure this scoot is reliable for her son. Oh Boy. And its not her money... But she has threatend to starve me from some "nookie" and i wouldn't put it past her to spike my Cream of wheat with something that ain't healthy for me. Ain't love grand.   But it will be right.
A big shout out and thanks to Calif. Phil for squaring up the problem I had with Vtwin parts. It was there fault but Phil made it right. A pleasure to know and do business with him. More to come. Karl