Axtell 117 cyclinders

[TA63]

Damn, you guys have made me nervous now.
Would the S&S 4.125" cylinders bolt straight down into a set of cases bored for the Axtell 4.125" cylinders. Or is their extra machining to do??

I just went through this.  My cases were prepped by dark horse to fit axtell's 107 cylinders which are about 1/2 inch shorter in the spigot than s&s 117's. Luckily for me dark horse had bored the cases deep enough to accommodate them.  Spigot diameter is so close that no corrections were needed as well.  I suspect dark horse bores cases to a standard dimension to fit most aftermarket cylinders.

[turboprop]

Take a axtell cylinder on a band saw cut it length wise and you will see what the problem is there is a problem between the cylinder and the sleeve. Which will cause the micro welding HA HA

Seems I was recently told the same issue from a reliable source as well. That would make them pretty damn unstable.
Ron

See that's the thing. Has anyone actually cut an Axtell cylinder in half? Lots of speculation here but very little solid information.

Again, if you have pictures of an Axtell cylinder cut in half, please post them up for everyone to see.

[strokerjlk]

Damn, you guys have made me nervous now.
Would the S&S 4.125" cylinders bolt straight down into a set of cases bored for the Axtell 4.125" cylinders. Or is their extra machining to do??

wouldnt a bore scope be cheaper 
take a look before  thinking the sky is falling.
you dont fit the pattern . clean the motor good upon assembly,tune and break it in correct.
dont let someone use the stock sensors to tune it to stoich . dont ride it for 500-1000 miles breaking it in ,before even looking at where the tune is at.
if you fail at any of the above once , dont follow the same path the second time.

[Ozbob]

I got no issues there stroker, my engine has never given any grief, 20,000miles, all hard, around 50 passes down the strip, best of 10.74et. Head change recently showed bores visually looked in great condition, especially knowing the riding conditions. Axtell 4.125' cyls with JE slugs.
Was tossing the idea of going down the B2 route, 13:1 comp etc. For me to commit to that I'd start with a new top end on my welded S&S 4.5" crank.
Just wanna know if a case bore tune up is required to go with the S&S cyls and hi comp B2 pistons inside em.
I got no issues with Axtell set up.

[strokerjlk]

I got no issues there stroker, my engine has never given any grief, 20,000miles, all hard, around 50 passes down the strip, best of 10.74et. Head change recently showed bores visually looked in great condition, especially knowing the riding conditions. Axtell 4.125' cyls with JE slugs.
Was tossing the idea of going down the B2 route, 13:1 comp etc. For me to commit to that I'd start with a new top end on my welded S&S 4.5" crank.
Just wanna know if a case bore tune up is required to go with the S&S cyls and hi comp B2 pistons inside em.
I got no issues with Axtell set up.

sounds like a killer plan
without measuring ,I have no idea if you can swap jug's.
your running a good ET there.  great to hear the  success stories 

[7hogs]

I got no issues there stroker, my engine has never given any grief, 20,000miles, all hard, around 50 passes down the strip, best of 10.74et. Head change recently showed bores visually looked in great condition, especially knowing the riding conditions. Axtell 4.125' cyls with JE slugs.
Was tossing the idea of going down the B2 route, 13:1 comp etc. For me to commit to that I'd start with a new top end on my welded S&S 4.5" crank.
Just wanna know if a case bore tune up is required to go with the S&S cyls and hi comp B2 pistons inside em.
I got no issues with Axtell set up.

sounds like a killer plan
without measuring ,I have no idea if you can swap jug's.
your running a good ET there.  great to hear the  success stories 

Put mine together with a guy that made sure we cleaned every bolt twice, broke it in correctly no issues that I can detect, pushing around 7k on the miles next step is to look and measure this winter when I get the heads done. I will post what my findings are.

[hdryder]

Pics were asked for so here they are. The pics are from a junk 97'' engine kit. Not going to make any claims of failure, but I'm willing to answer anyones questions with what we see sitting in front of us. The first three pics are prior to tapping the cast in sleeve loose. The last pic is just for reference and is a 97'' bored stock cylinder. Hope this helps

[TXChop]

Thank you Justin. 

[FXDBI]

  Thanks looks like some serious bonding problems there. Something terrible wrong with the process for those end results. We poured nicer aluminium in our own molds in school 35yrs ago.  Bob

[06roadglide]

It appears as if oil is getting between the liner and casting? 

Aside from the crap casting, would it be safe to assume that these 2 metals don't expand and contract properly? Causing the liner bond to fail and become unstable?

[rbabos]

That explains it. Didn't think it would be that bad. Locking design makes it tough for a constistant casting pour without voids.
Ron

[splitting_lanes]

on one side of the coin, you have a larger surface to transfer heat...  if you have a good bond.

and if you don't have a good bond, it's got insulating air gaps, making it harder to transfer heat.

[ndmp40]

Aside from the crap casting, would it be safe to assume that these 2 metals don't expand and contract properly? Causing the liner bond to fail and become unstable?

Lots of lined cylinders out there, no problems.  That is not what is happening here.

The one real bad spot almost hits air- my guess is that its .050 away from breaking through.  I know someone claimed theirs was leaking in the middle of the cylinder.  Now I believe that without question.

[turboprop]

Pics were asked for so here they are. The pics are from a junk 97'' engine kit. Not going to make any claims of failure, but I'm willing to answer anyones questions with what we see sitting in front of us. The first three pics are prior to tapping the cast in sleeve loose. The last pic is just for reference and is a 97'' bored stock cylinder. Hope this helps

Great pictures and thank you for sharing. I think everyone wanted to see something quantifiable and this certainly is. Maybe you have already posted it and I missed it, please tell us again what the problem was that alerted you to a problem, was it excessive oil use, blowby, etc?

[hdryder]

This particular set was removed as the bike was puffing smoke (oil not fuel). Few quick tests and a peak through the hole with a borescope sent us right to the source. Currently running stock bored cylinders to 97'' with je pistons. No other engine alterations were made at the time of repair. No issues as of this point. Borescope inspection after some miles show a much more favorable situation.

[06roadglide]

Aside from the crap casting, would it be safe to assume that these 2 metals don't expand and contract properly? Causing the liner bond to fail and become unstable?

Lots of lined cylinders out there, no problems.  That is not what is happening here.

The one real bad spot almost hits air- my guess is that its .050 away from breaking through.  I know someone claimed theirs was leaking in the middle of the cylinder.  Now I believe that without question.

I don't feel the void in the casting is as big as problem as the liner coming loose.  You could drill holes in the casting to the liner without problems if the bond is good and not have oil leaking. If someone had oil leaking. from the center and it wasn't over the oil return passage then I would have to believe that liner was loose also.

The problem I see is a loose fit and unstable liner with oil wicking up or possibly combustion pressures pushing down.

[ndmp40]

I don't feel the void in the casting is as big as problem as the liner coming loose.

Both ARE a big problem.  There was a large burn spot in the liner where the void in the casting was.

[FSG]

When there is a poor casting/liner bond every heat cycle is going to make it worse.

I've only been involved with bonding of urethanes and brass to withstand 5 Atmospheres but would say that the locking design is too coarse.

[Deye76]

My $400.00 SE cylinders are looking better every post.   

[Admiral Akbar]

Looks like they didn't preheat the liner high enough before pouring in the aluminium.        Pretty crappy QA IMO..

Max

[rbabos]

Looks like they didn't preheat the liner high enough before pouring in the aluminium.        Pretty crappy QA IMO..

Max

I've seen this on other pours and generally it's like you say and all about temp control during the pour.
Ron

[r440]

and to think we all paid for premium parts 

[rbabos]

and to think we all paid for premium parts 

Not all but at one point I had considered them. Went with the out of round SE instead back then. .005 over fixed that. Seems the SE have improved since then base on all the 120 inspection reports I've read about.
Ron

[7hogs]

All I can say is WOW!

[speed limit]