4-5 Gas Dyno Tuning 101

[marc99]

So please explain how using one of your Factory Pro Dyno's with 4 Gas analyzer will tell me [the tuner]  if the dip is the Cam or Exhaust choice?

Actually I no longer care since I feel the thread is more about Indy1 helping you sell your product.  Personally if that's your goal then you should pay your dues and become a Vendor. 

It's the wrong cam for the pipe or the wrong cam for the pipe. It's a cam timing / exhaust frequency thing.
Can see that on any dyno.

and in good humor-
Dang! You discovered my Master Plan of World Dyno Domination! Starting here at HTT.
:-)

Marc Salvisberg

[hrdtail78]

So please explain how using one of your Factory Pro Dyno's with 4 Gas analyzer will tell me [the tuner]  if the dip is the Cam or Exhaust choice?

Actually I no longer care since I feel the thread is more about Indy1 helping you sell your product.  Personally if that's your goal then you should pay your dues and become a Vendor. 

I believe this thread was started because questions in another thread and nobody wanted that thread hijacked.  Several members and a mod came on and showed interest.   It even seems that some post over there got moved here.

[hrdtail78]

How do you tune an acc table?

Thanks.  I steady state and trim acc with roll ons for rate of acceleration.

[marc99]

How do you tune an acc table?

Thanks.  I steady state and trim acc with roll ons for rate of acceleration.

That makes the most sense.
:-)

[1931jamesw]

Moving forward with the thread, here is a dyno run sheet. The gasses types are listed at the bottom of the sheet. Every bike I tune and every dyno run prints one of these sheets off for me. I make the adjustments in the tuning software and sample again to see if the desired results were achieved. The numbers on the far right hand side are the respective cell that was being sampled at the RPM at the far left of the line at 2248 RPM's (tuning cell would be 2250). At the top on the first line recorded for instance, you see 40/11F. That tells me that this sample was done at 40 MAP and 11% throttle and the F signifies it was on the front cylinder. As you go down the sheet, you see the at the 2250 RPM range (the decimal point in the RPM range on the left side of the sheet shouldnt be there) but in the 2250 RPM sampling at 60 and 70 MAP, you see I put a "T8" out there. That is my way of seeing that the antiknock sensor was pulling 8 degrees of timing at this specific place. I should also let you know that while all of the sampling is being done, the data collection software is recording. I usually start a recording before I even start the bike so I can see whats happening during warm-up etc. also. You see at the top of the attachment I have "04Base01.STP". The data recording is also named so each data recording corresponds with the samples for the EGA. That way you can see whats going on with the ECM at the same time the gasses were analyzed. At the 2500 RPM range there at 100 MAP and 60% throttle, you see that I have "T5FT8R". That tells me the ECM was pulling 5 degrees on the front cylinder and 8 on the rear. The rear was really insignificant in this instance because I had no gas readings from that cylinder and may have been caused from a lean condition.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[1931jamesw]

Lets try this again. I will try to get it turned upright. I still have not figured out the "media" button here. I havent taken the time to try to learn that function but heres another try of the sheet.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[1931jamesw]

I agree   would be nice to see real data on the 4 gas.I believe there is as much merit with that type of tuning as the 02 set up. You can label the post  "closed loop tuning is the DEVIL"   

I somehow looked over this post and just completely missed it! I am working on learning more about the O2 sensor tuning, Steve! Thanks for chiming in on the thread... I did post a sheet. Hopefully you can make heads from tails of the information. If you have questions, fire away! 

[1931jamesw]

Anyway, the gasses, they are .... They are, CO (Carbon Monoxide), HC (hydrocarbons), CO2 (Carbon Dioxide) and last is O2 (Oxygen) .

Carbon monoxide is formed when a molecule of HC attaches itself to an O2 molecule and gets partially burned in the combustion process. The next gas is CO2 this gas is residual of the combustion event when a molecule of HC and O2 are completely burned up. Lastly, is O2. In the case of analyzing the combustion event, O2 can be a good indicator of whether you need to advance timing or not as well as give clues to the efficiency of the engines performance. The O2 may be an indication of how efficient the heads are working also or possibly if the injectors are not atomizing fuel enough to allow the HC molecules to mix with the O2 on a combustible level. Lots of these gasses can help clue you in to how the engine is functioning as well as diagnose combustion and efficiency issues. In any internal combustion engine, the more O2 you can get in, the more HC you can attach to those O2 molecules and the more power and efficient the engine will perform. Clean combustion is critical to power and longevity. Dirty or inefficient combustion can lead to excessive carbon buildup, fouled plugs and shorter engine life.

this is all very broad in theory, let's get more to the point.  As someone who has suggested that afr tuning isn't as up to the task as 4 gas when tuning, please feel free to give us the red meat.  What I want to know specifically is how is the 4 gas better than just looking at one of the 4?  what specific value are you trying to tune to, and how are the value different than if someone just tuned based on residual oxygen?

does all fuel delivery control in 4 gas tuning occur in the VE tables?  or is there some manipulation of the afr tables as well when adjusting the calibration to the 4 gas analysis?  If you are tuning both, how do you over come potential transients when bikes have a MAP based afr table and TPS based ve tables? 

in terms of afr tuning, I know that peak power can occur at a very broad afr range.  In terms of spark angle, I know that MBT can occur over a range of advances as well depending on the engine load.  Since there is only these two variables and both offer allowable deviations for the same results, how does tuning to four gas analysis going to improve the operation of the motorcycle?  do you typically see a cruise sweet spot limited to 1 degree of spark angle range?  do you typically see a sweet spot based on 1/2 VE value change?  I know one of the points that you posted is that running at stoich does not allow for maximum performance, but I doubt that there are many afr tuners who are running full load at stoich.  I also fall to see what you would want for cruise afr to be that far from stoich, since that is the most efficient use of the fuel.  How is tuning with 4 gas different in this aspect?

Mike, I almost never use the quote button. I dont like it because I think it usually puts the person you are quoting in defense mode and almost makes them feel they are being attacked before they even read the post but I will this time to help me address some of your question. I may have suggested as you say that I didnt think O2 sensor tuning was as thorough as 4 gas. I have always stated however that a good tune can be done with them I just believe it takes a more experienced person to give as good a tune as a 4 gas tune. 4 gas takes a lot of the guess work out of it in my opinion. I try to refrain from opinions anymore on forums also but theres one. How could 4 times the information ever be a bad thing? Or in the case of 5 gas 5 times the information be a bad thing? The values you tune to in a general sense are dependent upon what throttle position, MAP position, and RPM you are tuning. The general idea is to burn up as much HC and O2 as possible in all throttle positions, MAP positions, and RPM's. in response to the scenario you gave about running closed loop at WOT, I will reply with this, in the light load cruise range RPM's, I might be willing to give up a ft lb or 2 of TQ and maybe a couple HP if it means getting 3-4 MPG more. That kinda depends on what the customer tells me they want or expect from the tune. If its all out power that is a concern at every throttle position, I would probably give up the MPG for the extra power. I do not want this to turn into a O2 sensor tune vs EGA tune but its probably almost inevitable. If the same AFR can be achieved on an O2 sensor tune with X amount of fuel and X amount of timing and then you change those values to something completely different, it is still possible to achieve the same AFR, right? Which one of those fuel and timing settings are right and what about all of the fuel and timing places in between that also achieve that same AFR? This is what Im talking about where experience comes into play on an O2 sensor dyno tune. As for your stoich questions and why fuel might be different is what about throttle response? What is I can pick you up several ft lbs of TQ to propel you down the road and at first glance it looks like it going to eat up more fuel by doing so but that doesnt really happen because the engine is working more efficiently and is working less to go the same distance? Very broad statement that would take testing to know but its something worth considering. Also heat may be an issue for a guy running at stoich. I know timing plays a big role here but its amazing how much just a little more fuel can cool one down in certain scenarios also. 

[marc99]

Stoichiometric "Combustion" is a chemically / mathematically / balanced "ideal" combustion / oxidation process.

In simple terms "all the HC and all the O2 molecules find each other and oxidize" - with no orphan HC or O2 left over.
In the world of education, that works if you calculate it (aka: the math works).

It's not a tuning goal, it's an equation denoting a molecular balancing act. When tuning our current engines, you might be able to get to stoich at light throttle / cruise - but usually, the engine doesn't like it (for a few reasons) and gets notchy in the teeny throttle %'s or surgy.

[rbabos]

This is some of the best no nonesense chit I've seen in this section in a long time. Most over my head but damned interesting. Always wondered what 4 gas is and how it is used to develop a good tune. Carry on.
Ron

[strokerjlk]

does all fuel delivery control in 4 gas tuning occur in the VE tables?  or is there some manipulation of the afr tables as well when adjusting the calibration to the 4 gas analysis?  If you are tuning both, how do you over come potential transients when bikes have a MAP based afr table and TPS based ve tables? 

in terms of afr tuning, I know that peak power can occur at a very broad afr range.  In terms of spark angle, I know that MBT can occur over a range of advances as well depending on the engine load.  Since there is only these two variables and both offer allowable deviations for the same results, how does tuning to four gas analysis going to improve the operation of the motorcycle?  do you typically see a cruise sweet spot limited to 1 degree of spark angle range?  do you typically see a sweet spot based on 1/2 VE value change?  I know one of the points that you posted is that running at stoich does not allow for maximum performance, but I doubt that there are many afr tuners who are running full load at stoich.  I also fall to see what you would want for cruise afr to be that far from stoich, since that is the most efficient use of the fuel.  How is tuning with 4 gas different in this aspect?

I think you guys need to read what mayor is asking .
I would like to see these questions answered as well.
Maybe I missed it , IDK it kinda hard to sort through the theory and facts .

[1931jamesw]

I thought I had addressed everything pretty well. It seems like maybe you're more interested in trying to devalue 4-5 gas tuning than learn it which was the purpose of the thread. If Im wrong in that assumption, I apologize. If you have a question regarding theory or facts, I'll do my very best to answer them.

Thanks for chiming in, Ron. Glad to help try to shed some light on this method of tuning.

[mayor]

Actually I no longer care since I feel the thread is more about Indy1 helping you sell your product.  Personally if that's your goal then you should pay your dues and become a Vendor. 

I believe this thread was started because questions in another thread and nobody wanted that thread hijacked.  Several members and a mod came on and showed interest.   It even seems that some post over there got moved here.

  I moved the original post over here, since it was somewhat of a hijack on the other thread. 

As for the post about stoich in the WOT areas, incompletely understand that and I would think any tuner worth their salt wouldn't do such a thing. I hope we don't get into a bantering about O2 tuning vs EG tuning. That's not what I would like to see this thread turn to but I understand that there will be legitimate analogies and comparisons of one vs the other. That said, you guys that are involved here in this thread already know more about O2 tuning than I so it will take effort from both sides to get this thread shaping up the way I intended for it to.

keep in mind, there isn't one afr tuner on the forum that is making these types of statements about 4 gas:

.......We don't need no stinking O2 sensors!!

PS. In case you found one of my reasons to be bogus, for good measure heres a

13. I don't post much here because of O2 sensors. They are the dominant force in tuning today and I don't have a lot of good things to say about them! So, since I don't have much of anything good to contribute to the O2 sensor world we are living in today. I usually just read the posts and keep to myself here and dream of a day when the EPA will be so far up our asses that the O2 sensors seem way towards the exit end of your exhaust pipe and will be deemed inadequate for tuning street driven bikes.

IMO, if you are going to make a statement like that around folks that use and know the limitations of those sensors...you better be prepared to back it up.    

I for one am interested in learning more about 4 gas, but I also feel that o2 sensors are not a weak alternative since the allowable variance is quite broad.  I have no doubt that you can pull a steady state value and make micro adjustments that make that one steady state area in near perfect combustion.  That's not the areas that I have concerns though.  The original Harley EFI calibration is based on using afr/lambda values, so adjusting calibration tables to another system is some what concerning to me.  If you are dialing the ve tables in to get your desired gas values, what values are you using for constants in the afr table?

[1931jamesw]

Well, as I stated to you in the pm I sent you, I was being obnoxious in the post you are quoting and its from another thread, not this one so those two things being considered I don't know that its pertinent to this thread but if that's the direction you want to go, I'm not I can teach anything about 4 gas. You asked me to post about 4 gas so I did. There are not a lot of people making statements about 4 gas because they don't know a lot about it and as I stated in that post and in others, I don't know a lot about O2 sensors. Are there any questions regarding 4-5 gas?

I'd also add that again, I didn't want this to go to AFR vs EGA and the post quoted from the other thread is a little out of context for this thread. If you'd like to talk 4 gas, ok, if you want to talk AFR there are thousands of threads here for that and I thought you wanted me to post a thread on 4 gas.

[strokerjlk]

I thought I had addressed everything pretty well. It seems like maybe you're more interested in trying to devalue 4-5 gas tuning than learn it which was the purpose of the thread. If Im wrong in that assumption, I apologize. If you have a question regarding theory or facts, I'll do my very best to answer them.

Thanks for chiming in, Ron. Glad to help try to shed some light on this method of tuning.

sorry the only thing i have been able to learn from this thread so far is Marc likes to steady state rpm and not sweep test. i have to agree with that.
not everyone is as ignorant  concerning EGA and or infrared spectroscopy as you think.
we have  a mass spectrometry lab at work. we use it for quality control.
it appears you are the one "getting your learn on " here. it's good thing you had Marc step in otherwise it wouldnt make much sense to most of these  guys.

I may have suggested as you say that I didnt think O2 sensor tuning was as thorough as 4 gas. I have always stated however that a good tune can be done with them I just believe it takes a more experienced person to give as good a tune as a 4 gas tune. 4 gas takes a lot of the guess work out of it in my opinion.

IMO what you describe  involves a lot more guess work, when using EGA  tuning performance motors.
if i wanted to get the best stoich reading i could ,naturally i would use EGA.

biggest down fall using EGA is, you still have to chase the wagging tail.
trying to tune one cylinder at a time ,with a shared intake sucks. 
so how many times do you normally switch from front to rear, and back to front ,then back to rear?
or do you make a guess after sampling  each cylinder independent once ?

[1931jamesw]

Marc has been doing this a lot longer than I have and as I stated earlier, I'm glad for whoever reads this that he is here. I've stated in a lot of posts I may not be the best at trying to type out responses that say what I mean. I am trying to learn more about your tuning method just out of curiousity but I was asked to post this thread and you must not have caught the sample sheet I posted is steady state. If you have something to help me get my learn on that is on topic (4 gas), id like to hear your information. I never claimed to know everything about 4 gas. If this thread isnt wanted now or is going to create problems, its fine with me if it gets pulled down. No agenda here other than doing what was asked of me by several people several times and I kept putting it off because I am not the best teacher and typing out answers and because it seems people are more interested in devaluing 4 gas than learning it. I can only hope there's no agenda from from anyone who asked me to post. I didn't think was and that's why I finally posted.

A true stoich reading on an EGA and a Harley would be a pretty crappy tune. I agree with you about the common plenum 2 cylinder thing. How many times is switched and looked at the other cylinder depends on how far out the tune is. If you're getting close on both cylinders, the small changes don't interfere with the opposite cylinder nearly as much. I assume the same is true with AFR tune. There's no shots in the dark if that's what you mean.

[joe_lyons]

How is 4-5 gas with tuning other fuels?

What is the time roughly from start to finish for a full throttle run?

[strokerjlk]

Stay on topic James , and I will shut up and listen. Don't put on the persona that somehow EGA has a leg up on AFR tuning . That's all.
Both are effective in the right hands . 
I really think Marc has a lot to offer . And could be a great asset around here .
We don't agree on everything , but that's ok . I can probably stand to learn more from him than him from I . But I would like to learn without the DJ negativity.

I agree . Afr tuning one cylinder and chasing the wagging tail is just as bad . Some builds are really close once dialed in the first go around . But some will be a mile off unless you run through it two- three times .

[1931jamesw]

  I don't remember ever saying dynojet in this entire thread and again, I believe more information is a good thing and again, I wanted to leave AFR out of this. There is more information with 4 gas than AFR. There's also thousands of threads here on AFR. Is there room for one on 4 gas? If you disagree that more information is not a good thing then I will agree to disagree. I'm trying my best to talk 4 gas but a post that I probably shouldn't have made in (an O2 thread) hindsight was brought into this thread. That said, that post is what finally sparked this thread. I promise to stay on topic. It would be appreciated by me personally if you would too and help me since you have one at work instead of trying to prove I don't know anything or I'm the one here trying to learn. I was asked to post on 4 gas. I tune with it all the time. I figured my experience with it might help on this topic and apparently everyone that asked me to post did to. Can we work together here or do I just need not come back in the thread already? Since you don't think anyone understands anything I've said in spite of someone else already saying the information i started with was basic and since you have one at work and it is on topic, why don't you inform everyone on 4 gas and why you think there's more guesswork with using 4 gas because it sounds like you're persona is AFR has a leg up on 4 gas. Why didn't you get anything out of the posts except the steady state tuning if you have a good understanding of it? I'd like to see these questions answered. Since you think Marc is an asset around here and so do I, there is more common ground between us and he and I tune the same way so I appreciate the compliment because you must think I am also an asset to the forum but that's off topic so lets get back on it.

[marc99]

How is 4-5 gas with tuning other fuels?

What is the time roughly from start to finish for a full throttle run?

Fuels, different:
Since you are tuning to Best Power as a goal and not using any gas specific reading as a "goal", the results are Best Power and you learn what the engine tends to want after the first tuned point.
Once you see what that engine wants, then you can use those gas readings as a hint and clue.


Time:
It could be 45 minutes to 4-5-6 hours for "trying" engine packages and obstinate software. That's fuel and ignition and it's not been my experience that bikes make the same power over a wide spread of fuel and ign.

I've done AMA Superbikes that rev to 13,000 rpm in as little as 20 minutes on the side of the track - but that's not enjoyable or elegant or recommended.

Marc Salvisberg

[lonewolf]

So does the balance of the 4 gasses differ from the "cruise" area of the map to the wot?

[1931jamesw]

Yes, the sheet I posted is not a tuned bike. As already pointed out by Marc, the general idea is to tune for best power but in the cruise area, the CO readings are typically lower than you would have in a WOT area and the CO values typically go from small in idle and light load areas and increase as load and or rpm increase. For example, the partially burned O2 and HC which is the CO reading are typically in the 1.7 to 2.3 range in the light load areas where that CO level could be as much as 3 to 4 times that in WOT areas. That's what I typically see in our air cooled VTwins. Maybe Marc can help out on the imports. The Oxygen level is something you'd like to see at less than 1% but sometimes advancing timing to try to burn that cause the auto knock feature to pull timing before you can burn it up.

[marc99]

So does the balance of the 4 gases differ from the "cruise" area of the map to the wot?

You asked a tuning "artwork" question. :-)
The WOT Best Power tuning is pretty distinct in it's fuel and ign. Not much latitude there.
What you do to the "cruise" area is often one of the things that creates a tuner reputation.
Of the 4 gases, I find that CO% is the best mixture strength indicator.

Marc Salvisberg

[Rider57]

Finally, someone who uses a 4/5 gas system similar to mine. I use a Horiba and have been using it since 93. It's a 5 gas and works for me as that's what I learned on. Dyno is a Superflow CycleDyne.

[marc99]

Rider57

We use 4/5 gas EGA and for over 20 years eddy current dyno - First integrated EGA / dyno.
There's a few 4 gas EGA ships in a 1 gas sea.

Welcome.

Marc Salvisberg