Anyone seen the article in Feb Thunderpress on Engine Oils?

[FLTRI]

There was a great informative article by IIRC, Kip Woodring on Engine Oils based on hard data rather than personal opinions.
While I realize there is a huge debate as to what oil is best, you may find it interesting concerning oils and how they deal with out air cooled engine's heat issues, especially as related to the newer TC and Sportster engines.
Just offering this for discussion purposes not as a way to get the bird out. LOL!
Bob

[CndUltra88]

guess I am going to have to head out and get my issue of thunder press and see what all the fuss is about.
I am sure Earl will be interested as well.
Thanks for the heads up Bob
Rob

[FLTRI]

Pure synthetics are now available in their “pure” forms only in more expensive and harder to obtain oils. Delvac-1, AMSOil, Redline, Mobil One, Motul 5100 (and possibly Syn3) are oils made from pure traditional synthetic basestocks.
Only oneâ€"Redlineâ€"is not made up of Poly-Alpha-Olefin (PAO) basestocks. Redline is composed of (are you ready?)â€"Polyester! Don’t laughâ€"this isn’t where old leisure suits from the ’70s went to dieâ€"this is generally acknowledged as the best protection of all from high temperature operation.
I believe this is why most high performance, high load, high revving race engines (also Nascar 9500+! rpm pushrod V8 engine) use this stuff. Endurance engines run this stuff as well.

[JamLazyAss]

Don't get me started mister...

[FLTRI]

The following statement is what I primarily base reasoning for use of synthetics on for street riding, racing, and break-in:

"The traditional Harley-Davidson engine is capable under extreme riding conditions of experiencing engine temperatures that can cause rapid breakdown of commonly used oils.
Adding a conventional oil-cooler might help, but is not insurance against thermal limits of oil.
Running thicker grades of oil only puts more stress on the oil pump and degrades the protection oil can offer against cold start scuffing."

Also the thicker the oil the more the oil will retain heat when what we really want is to shed temperature.

IMO, the 1 and only justification for running thicker oil is to quiet valve train noises, especially after the engine has been run hard and gotten hot over time.
I hear this after a dyno tuning session on big-inch builds every time. What I can say is there is a significant difference between RedLine 20-50 vs 20-60HD due to the 10wt thicker hot temp viscosity. The RedLine chemist also had to note the temp would not lower as fast with the 20-60HD as compared to the 20-50, but the difference in hot running noise is worth it IMO.

Bob

[blk-betty]

Well then, just confirms the good advice I received here several years ago.

Was thinking of switching to Mobil 1 (non-V-twin as I can't seem to find the V-twin anywhere) but will instead stick with Redline 20W50 just as I have been using for last 5+ years.

[HIPPO]

The correct term for the RedLine base is polyol ester

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_oil

[Garry in AZ]

blk-betty -  I get the Mobil 1 20W50 V-Twin oil from any local AutoZone in the Phoenix area. Sometimes it's not out on the shelf, and you have to ask them to go in the back and look for it, but they all seem to stock it. I have seen it at Checkers as well, but seems more hit and miss. I'm pretty sure you can buy it online as well, 10 bucks a quart at Autobarn...

Garry

[blk-betty]

Thanks Gary

AutoZone use to carry it but no longer on the shelves. Didn't ask if they had it in the back so maybe that is an option.  As far as ordering, I can get Redline for 8.95/qt.  Only reason in my book to switch is so I have something that I can get on the road if I ever run into a problem and need to add a qt or 2.  If the V-Twin is hard to find I figure I'm better off sticking with Redline and if in a pinch on a trip I can add a qt of some off the shelf synthetic then do a complete oil change when I get home.

As far as I'm concerned if I gotta order it, it might as well be Redline     

[FLTRI]

Clint,
Always good to have a resident guinea pig for new engine lifeline products, thanks.

[Bruno]

No I wouldn't consider it being a guinea pig, taking proven technology and using it in it's designed application. As for lifeblood rarely do I changed products.  Being able to improve the quality of the lubricant and at a greater value, yeah I'll give it a shot. What was not mentioned in the article is there are grades of synthetics. Moving from a grade III synthetic to a grade V with improved lubricating properties is only improving the quality of my engines lifeblood.  Especially by a manufacturer who's products have served me well for decades.  If it is fun for you to take a shot though, be sure and have at it ! If it makes you feel superior when casting judgement, I am so glad I can provide that service for you.

Clinster, please tell us more about the Klotz oil.

[Bruno]

Thanks Clintster.  I have heard mention of Klotz before, and never in a negative way. I have never heard any of the details though. I will look for the website.

[someday69]

clinster,,sounds like you got some issues,,or par a noia ,,,but just because you think people are out'ta get you......don't mean that someone somewhere might be...someday..

[FLTRI]

If it is fun for you to take a shot though, be sure and have at it ! If it makes you feel superior when casting judgement, I am so glad I can provide that service for you.

OOOPS! Sorry Clint. Didn't mean for it to be a shot. What I did mean is when it comes to something that can affect the reliability of our dear motorcycles, cars, or whatever, it is always better for someone else to take that first step to prove its worth.

Racing teams constantly look for ways to improve HP/TQ and reliability and someone invariably must take the step to do so. If it works they certainly want to keep it to themselves for the advantage, however if it fails they also want to keep it to themselves so possible everyone else will take the wrong step and fail. Just note the Roush cars in the Cup races recently. No one knows but the teams what is causing the engine failures right now. Did they only think they found an advantage, but later found it hurt reliability?

This is why I look to the success in racing for anything new to try, if at all possible. If it lives in racing it'll more than likely live on the street.

High quality oils are shining example. There are a few excellent synthetic oils on the market that have proved themselves for many years. Mobil 1, Amsoil, RedLine, etc are but to name a few. Is there a need to try other oils in the search for the "best" lubricant available? If it'll make your engine work less, last longer, and maybe even smell better (LOL!), sure. You've made the call to test it and it is certainly your call to make.

Will it turn out to be superior to others? I would like to hear your results after you've run it in high temps, etc for a while, with what you find in comparison to others when it comes to oil temp, engine wear, etc.

You will to this day, find reputable shops promoting the use of petroleum (dino) oils over synthetics. Maybe they've found something in dinos that have been overlooked in synthetics. Maybe the extra thick dinos will actually help quiet an otherwise noisy valvetrain better than synthetics? Maybe we don't really need all the thermal protection synthetics offer over dinos?

For the above reasons, my comment was and still is: You be the guinea pig, LOL! Better you than me.
Again, sorry you were insulted by my comment but nothing negative was meant by it,
Bob

[Gonzo]

Great reply, FLTRI! Once again showing you to be a class act. I especially like the way you not only DID NOT let them bait you, but gave a great response as well. Gotta get down to Hayward to buy you a beer!!

[Bruno]

http://www.klotzlube.com/storeCats.asp?ci=7

Looks like proven stuff to me. I believe that I will feel safe being a "guinea pig", if I can find where to buy some localy.  I emailed this question to Klotz and am hoping for a good answer.

[Jeffd]

Klotz has been around for ever.  It is an excellent product.  I used it back in the late 70's when I built a CB750 into hipo bike (for the time it was fast LOL)

[truck]

  $12.02 a quart! 
How much motor longevity do you need to get to make that cost justifiable?

[FLTRI]

http://www.torcousa.com/products/productview.aspx?id=270e275d-d0b1-4e11-aa05-72fdf0e6c205
$18.95 per liter = 1.05 qt!

[Dennis The Menace]

Clintster, hope the surgery goes well, bro.  Get well soon.

So, I change the oil 4 times a year, once each season, not matter how many/few miles I ride.  Unless I get to 3K on a change, then I change again.  Started using Syn3 (again) last fall.  Changed it in late December and due to change it again now.  Just need to stay home long enough.  lol

Anyway, given the above, is Redline going to be worth it over Syn3?  I might only get 1500-1800 miles on a change in winter, so that may not make it worth it.  But, in summer, its not unusual to get stuck in traffic on PGR rides and heat up to 260-280 degrees on the oil gauge.  I dont think I have gotten any higher than that.

So, question is, would Redline be a better fit for at least the summer riding?

menace

[Dennis The Menace]

btw, I change oil frequently to ensure moisture in the oil doesnt cause problems inside the motor, especially in winter when I often ride in sub-freezing temps, and put her away in a heated garage.

[03deuce]

$18.95 per liter = 1.05 qt!

Is this the new math they teach in school today??

[Big Dan]

Nothing in the world smells as good as a 2-stroke motor burning Klotz.

[truck]

http://www.torcousa.com/products/productview.aspx?id=270e275d-d0b1-4e11-aa05-72fdf0e6c205
$18.95 per liter = 1.05 qt!

I believe that conversion chart needs a tune up.

[FLTRI]

http://www.torcousa.com/products/productview.aspx?id=270e275d-d0b1-4e11-aa05-72fdf0e6c205
$18.95 per liter = 1.05 qt!

I believe that conversion chart needs a tune up.

Sorry, I meant to say 1 liter = 1.05qt

[FLTRI]

Newsflash: All high quality synthetic motor oils are expensive compared to less quality synthetic motor oils. The difference is mainly due to base stock quality/cost.

I know of no high quality base stock synthetic motor, especially as applied to motorcycle, oil that is cheap.

Just look at the difference between Mobil 1 and Mobil 1 V-twin synthetic oil prices.
This is due to 2 basic differences:
1. Difference in base stock quality
2. Difference in additive package.

[Bruno]

$12.02 a quart! 
How much motor longevity do you need to get to make that cost justifiable?

Does anybody recall what they paid for their bikes?  Does anybody recall what they paid to "upgrade" their bikes? I don't hear much about people skimping when it came to that (except for those who settled for less than a Harley).  Now, some of the same Harley buyers and upgraders are mocking the ones who choose the better oils for these precious machines.  How ironic.

[specialx1]

[jambo]

I dont know which syn is best but there is no doubt in my mind that syn is better than regular oil. I'll tell you why I think so. I bought a 2000 FXST new it came with dino oil in it, when I changed oil I went with Mobil 1 V twin syn. I also changed air filter still stock, and changed spark plugs to HD splitfire.After warm up the idle went up 300 rpm's which tells me it had to be a reduction in friction senice I dont think the other two would have anything to do with it. Mobil 1 V twin is available around here at wal mart just my 2 cents     

[FLTRI]

Jambo,
When the splitfires first came on the scene we did a comprehensive back-to-back dyno test and they consistantly lost 2 hp over and over again.
Just thought I'd offer the info. We determined the extra ground strap area actually shielded and hence, slowed the flame front and caused more incomplete burn.
Bob

[Rokinrider]

 Special that cartoon Rocks! I vote it replaces our age old bird. Nothing like beating a dead horse..

[ULTRADOG]

oil did some one say oil and beat what horse

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[EagleFTE]

The correct term for the RedLine base is polyol ester

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_oil

Yep and for more   The term “polyol esters” is short for neopentyl polyol esters which are made by reacting monobasic acids with polyhedric alcohols having a neopentyl structure.... polyol are esters ideally suited for the higher temperature applications where the performance of diesters and PAOs begin to fade....The major application for polyol esters is jet engine lubricants where they have been used exclusively for more than 40 years. In this application, the oil is expected to flow at -65°C, pump readily at -40°C, and withstand sump temperature over 200°C with drain intervals measured in years. 

From ESTERS IN SYNTHETIC LUBRICANTS

By T. G. Schaefer


Menace, if purchased by the case you should be able to get Red Line 20W50 for about $10.00 per Qt.  Not sure what Syn3 goes for but I bet at least $10.  So I would say yes Red line is worth it in that comparison.

[FLTRI]

The correct term for the RedLine base is polyol ester

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_oil

Yep and for more   The term “polyol esters” is short for neopentyl polyol esters which are made by reacting monobasic acids with polyhedric alcohols having a neopentyl structure.... polyol are esters ideally suited for the higher temperature applications where the performance of diesters and PAOs begin to fade....The major application for polyol esters is jet engine lubricants where they have been used exclusively for more than 40 years. In this application, the oil is expected to flow at -65°C, pump readily at -40°C, and withstand sump temperature over 200°C with drain intervals measured in years. 

From ESTERS IN SYNTHETIC LUBRICANTS

By T. G. Schaefer


Menace, if purchased by the case you should be able to get Red Line 20W50 for about $10.00 per Qt.  Not sure what Syn3 goes for but I bet at least $10.  So I would say yes Red line is worth it in that comparison.

And I do believe this is the main reason for most all endurance race teams such as IMSA, NASCAR, etc buy RedLine oil in lieu any other brand, even the stuff they are sposored by. AFAIK, those teams do not advertise for RedLine and will disavow knowledge of using it.

[jambo]

Jambo,
When the splitfires first came on the scene we did a comprehensive back-to-back dyno test and they consistantly lost 2 hp over and over again.
Just thought I'd offer the info. We determined the extra ground strap area actually shielded and hence, slowed the flame front and caused more incomplete burn.
Bob

Bob thanks for the info, just courious did you index the plugs when you put them and would that make a differance?                                             Thanks  Jambo

[nc-renegade]

I believe this is why most high performance, high load, high revving race engines (also Nascar 9500+! rpm pushrod V8 engine) use this stuff. Endurance engines run this stuff as well.

I switched to Redline awhile ago and have been very happy with it, partly because of the reasons you state and the chemical makeup (zinc and phosphorus) that is critical from a metalurgy standpoint.  I buy from BSR and pay a little less than $8 a quart (when buying a case), which is a very good price.