Break in on a dyno -verses- the traditional 500 miles

[gabbyduffy]

        Are there a lot of fellows out there that break in new motors on the dyno? Or do most of the tuners prefer a traditional 500 mi. Break in period before they dyno the bike.....  Is there any benefits in doing one or the other...... Any downside to doing one or the other?

[hrdtail78]

Break in on the dyno.  You have control over temp, load, and AF. VS. Riding it for 500 miles on what map?

[springer-]

IMO, it's a double edged sword .... sort of.

Break in on a dyno can be very controlled and the map adjusted to prevent excessively lean conditions.

On the other hand, a fresh build (that is out of your control) may be a disaster waiting to happen.  In our case we prefer that you at least have a few miles on it to make sure it isn't a time bomb waiting to explode.  And the last thing we want is a bike that has issues.  No amount of dyno break in will make up for a valve hitting a piston, for example.  Check with your tuner to see if they can supply a map for initial startup and running ... usually an extra rich map, IMO richer is better than leaner.

Overall I am all for break in on the dyno.

[strokerjlk]

IMO, it's a double edged sword .... sort of.

Break in on a dyno can be very controlled and the map adjusted to prevent excessively lean conditions.

On the other hand, a fresh build (that is out of your control) may be a disaster waiting to happen.  In our case we prefer that you at least have a few miles on it to make sure it isn't a time bomb waiting to explode.  And the last thing we want is a bike that has issues.  No amount of dyno break in will make up for a valve hitting a piston, for example.  Check with your tuner to see if they can supply a map for initial startup and running ... usually an extra rich map, IMO richer is better than leaner.

Overall I am all for break in on the dyno.

but you know how many "break in maps" I have handed  out .....that were no shows ...double edge sword for sure 

[DBW]

Plus 1 here! You can adjust and control.



quote author=springer- link=topic=69287.msg749099#msg749099 date=1388625954]
IMO, it's a double edged sword .... sort of.

Break in on a dyno can be very controlled and the map adjusted to prevent excessively lean conditions.

On the other hand, a fresh build (that is out of your control) may be a disaster waiting to happen.  In our case we prefer that you at least have a few miles on it to make sure it isn't a time bomb waiting to explode.  And the last thing we want is a bike that has issues.  No amount of dyno break in will make up for a valve hitting a piston, for example.  Check with your tuner to see if they can supply a map for initial startup and running ... usually an extra rich map, IMO richer is better than leaner.

Overall I am all for break in on the dyno.
[/quote]

[Hillside Motorcycle]

We put the first 25 "controlled" miles on our in-house installs, whether it be on the road or on our Dynojet 150, prior to going to a tuner.
VERY RARE, if we see hear or any issues using this method.
Scott

[BVHOG]

I feel the reason this question comes up is that the first thing the average Joe thinks of when he hears "Dyno" is a bike running WOT.  Not the case at all.  You can get running time on the bike while making sure the afr is proper and the motor doesn't detonate or get to hot.   The real question should be "Should I get my bike broke in properly on a dyno or should I run it out of tune for 500 miles first?"

[1FSTRK]

The guy that does my motors puts them on the dyno, hooks AFR and data logging before he fires the motor the first time. He logs heat cycles and break-in right on the dyno.
I have two performance motors, 95ci and 110ci both less than 3% leakdown at 100lbs and neither use any oil between 2500 mile changes. Not saying it is the only way, many have their own way that works for them, but it is the only way for me from now on. 

[14Frisco]

For those that do the break-in on a dyno, how many miles are approx. run on the dyno?

[uglyDougly]

  I have a DynaPro dyno (UK) which has a miles and time read-out. I usually get a little over 1 hour and a few miles over 60 miles in running time/mileage for a tune.
(Interesting that the average is 60 mph)
  A brand new build might need a little more dinkin' so it could take 1.5hrs and up to 100 miles.

  When I worked for Kuryakyn I was in the same building as Bob Wright and Mike Roland was the division manager. By the time I started with 'k' Roland was already a believer in dyno break-ins. Bob was a little more skeptical. After all, they went from his bench to the dyno!
  Bob would always remind me to do as many heat cycles as possible, and I'm sure he cringed the first 6500 RPM WOT pass, but he became a believer too.

  As hrdtail78 said 'or should I run it out of tune for 500 miles first?'

  I don't run them rich at any time (except WOT) because rich will wash the oil off the cylinders and that doesn't do your rings any good at all.

  After the first set of runs, the adjustments put your AFRs into the correct zone and you have a bike that's only been run properly after the first few minutes.
  I've had push-rods collapse but you won't get 500 miles if that happens and you'll have to fix it out on the road.

  Doug

[RideFree]

For those that do the break-in on a dyno, how many miles are approx. run on the dyno?

Good question. I kinda thought it would be kinda time consuming running 500 miles on a dyno. Plus dyno time costs money. Much rather be riding it instead, even below 3000 and 3500 RPM. I don't think I'd break-in on a dyno. I want to ride it.

Plus the dyno operator is probably used to wrapping that throttle around to WOT and you don't want that until after 500 miles. Just saying.

[BVHOG]

For those that do the break-in on a dyno, how many miles are approx. run on the dyno?

Good question. I kinda thought it would be kinda time consuming running 500 miles on a dyno. Plus dyno time costs money. Much rather be riding it instead, even below 3000 and 3500 RPM. I don't think I'd break-in on a dyno. I want to ride it.

Plus the dyno operator is probably used to wrapping that throttle around to WOT and you don't want that until after 500 miles. Just saying.

I hope your not serious,  you don't need 500 dyno miles to get your bike tuned and ready to run and if your dyno tuner is just "wrapping" that throttle then you better find a new tuner.   

[RideFree]

For those that do the break-in on a dyno, how many miles are approx. run on the dyno?

Good question. I kinda thought it would be kinda time consuming running 500 miles on a dyno. Plus dyno time costs money. Much rather be riding it instead, even below 3000 and 3500 RPM. I don't think I'd break-in on a dyno. I want to ride it.

Plus the dyno operator is probably used to wrapping that throttle around to WOT and you don't want that until after 500 miles. Just saying.

I hope your not serious,  you don't need 500 dyno miles to get your bike tuned and ready to run and if your dyno tuner is just "wrapping" that throttle then you better find a new tuner.

The topic is breaking in not just tuning it. Tuning obviously takes much less time and miles than breaking it in.

[uglyDougly]

  RideFree must have skimmed over my post. It generally, takes 1-1.5 hours of running time and 60-100 miles during the tuning.

  As far as break-in goes, I tell the customer, there's nothing they're going to do that I haven't already done, meaning that I've taken it to the limiter at WOT several times.

  What I don't do is lug it under load at 2200 RPM for an hour with the engine temp at 300 C. And, I don't think there is any reason to do that even after a 'break-in'.

  Rings are seated in minutes with the top rings needing some cylinder pressure (gas pressure pushes the top ring outward.)

  Most of the lore about long break-ins is about cast iron cylinders with forged pistons. They require a thorough heat soak to stabilize the piston-to-cylinder fit and the pistons may take some miles and load cycles to establish a heat path through the skirt to the cylinder walls. That combination is (I am told) subject to cold seizure if those precautions aren't taken.
  Any engine should be heat soaked before pounding on it, but the old stuff is a little more likely to respond poorly.

  Maybe everyone here wants to ignore me but I think it's ready to rumble when it's been tuned. Period.

  Oh, and by the way, they don't make more power when they get miles on them, they only make less!

  Why do you think racers build their engines the night before the race instead of 500 miles before?  Besides 'poor planning' of course.

  Doug

[RideFree]

  RideFree must have skimmed over my post. It generally, takes 1-1.5 hours of running time and 60-100 miles during the tuning.

I read your post but did not agree with some of it. No reason to negatively comment because to each his own opinion. I just added mine without indicating my opinion of yours. The original poster can work out what they want to believe and try.

  As far as break-in goes, I tell the customer, there's nothing they're going to do that I haven't already done, meaning that I've taken it to the limiter at WOT several times.

I would not let you take mine to WOT before 500 miles.

  What I don't do is lug it under load at 2200 RPM for an hour with the engine temp at 300 C. And, I don't think there is any reason to do that even after a 'break-in'.

  Rings are seated in minutes with the top rings needing some cylinder pressure (gas pressure pushes the top ring outward.)

I don't agree with minutes to fully seat. It's not just the pressure but the cycles of more pressure and less pressure and time and heat cycles that makes all of the ring meld with the cylinder properly.

  Most of the lore about long break-ins is about cast iron cylinders with forged pistons. They require a thorough heat soak to stabilize the piston-to-cylinder fit and the pistons may take some miles and load cycles to establish a heat path through the skirt to the cylinder walls. That combination is (I am told) subject to cold seizure if those precautions aren't taken.

I always recommend following the engine manufacturers break-in specs regardless of what anyone else says.

  Any engine should be heat soaked before pounding on it, but the old stuff is a little more likely to respond poorly.

  Maybe everyone here wants to ignore me but I think it's ready to rumble when it's been tuned. Period.

  Oh, and by the way, they don't make more power when they get miles on them, they only make less!

  Why do you think racers build their engines the night before the race instead of 500 miles before?  Besides 'poor planning' of course.

Racers do not require their engines to last long like a normal consumer does, so they only care it lasts the race. That is why they do not break-in for longevity but do a much shorter break-in for their purposes, one race.

  Doug

With that said, I would not break-in on a dyno mainly because I want to ride it and definitely not chance a WOT tuning run before the manufacturers break-in specs in this case 500 miles.

[JohnCA58]

    

[mayor]

With that said, I would not break-in on a dyno mainly because I want to ride it and definitely not chance a WOT tuning run before the manufacturers break-in specs in this case 500 miles.

from a purely technical stand point, can you give a logical explanation as to why a light load 500 miles would be critical for a break in?  I'm off the opinion that 500 miles on a bad tune is far worse than not observing the traditional 500 miles of babying the engine.  IMO the vast majority of break in is occurring in the first 50 or less miles of the engine running, and running an additional 450 miles before loading the engine probably isn't making a hill of beans worth of difference. I actually think controlled loading an unloading the engine is actually better for ring seating, but's that's just my opinion. 

[RideFree]

With that said, I would not break-in on a dyno mainly because I want to ride it and definitely not chance a WOT tuning run before the manufacturers break-in specs in this case 500 miles.

from a purely technical stand point, can you give a logical explanation as to why a light load 500 miles would be critical for a break in?  I'm off the opinion that 500 miles on a bad tune is far worse than not observing the traditional 500 miles of babying the engine.  IMO the vast majority of break in is occurring in the first 50 or less miles of the engine running, and running an additional 450 miles before loading the engine probably isn't making a hill of beans worth of difference. I actually think controlled loading an unloading the engine is actually better for ring seating, but's that's just my opinion.

I never indicated "light load" or "babying the engine." I indicated no WOT not light load. No babying but no WOT either. You can do a pretty darn good acceleration at 40% throttle while keeping it under 3000 RPM. It's really the load, you want the pistons to have to fight to move down the cylinder. So you want some frequent hard accelerations while staying below the break-in RPM limits.

I agree with you that you do not want to baby the engine during break-in. I agree with varying the load and not sitting at one RPM. I have characterized it in previous posts as nearly riding it like you stole it. However, there is no need to dyno or ride it to 6000 RPM or WOT during break-in.

I agree the tune needs to be a good one, not perfect, but good for the break-in period and for the break-in RPM ranges. Then after break-in one can tune the upper RPM ranges. So during break-in just make sure the dyno operator does not forget it's a break-in tune and not a full WOT tune they are performing.

You are correct in that the metal forming and trimming occurs exponentially and not linearly during the break-in period. The first 250 is the most important IMO. I recommend several full heating and cooling cycles during that time as well.

[RideFree]

"I have seen a number of really good engines that have had the edge taken off their potential power because the necessity for an adequately extensive break-in was not appreciated."

This quote is from a NASCAR engine break-in article but captures the essence of the goal.

Take the time to break it in following the manufacturers specs. Don't shortcut would be my recommendation and be careful if doing it on a dyno.

[1FSTRK]

"I have seen a number of really good engines that have had the edge taken off their potential power because the necessity for an adequately extensive break-in was not appreciated."

This quote is from a NASCAR engine break-in article but captures the essence of the goal.

Take the time to break it in following the manufacturers specs. Don't shortcut would be my recommendation and be careful if doing it on a dyno.

You need to find a better dyno shop.
The exact same statement can be made about bikes broke in on the road. They get lugged, rev too high in lower gears, improper ignition timing and AFR, with no way to know how far off they really are.
Either method can be performed properly or improperly so most of this is just personal preference. The thing is once someone gets the opportunity to do a proper dyno brake in they seldom decide to go back to the No dyno method. The ability to monitor and control more variables is undeniable and that control gives very repeatable results.

[uglyDougly]

  It's interesting that the quote; "I have seen a number of really good engines that have had the edge taken off their potential power because the necessity for an adequately extensive break-in was not appreciated."
  Is from a stockcarracing.com article (may have appeared elsewhere) and he talks about a 20 minute run-in/warm-up followed by an oil change and another hour  break-in and recommends that (other than expense) it can be done on the dyno.

Then: 'This next fill should be run for about an hour to maybe an hour and a half with the engine progressively cycled to higher rpm. The engine should be up to about 75 percent of the rpm it will eventually reach. At this point, the sump should be refilled with the oil you intend to use during a race or dyno test. Make some provisional pulls once the engine is on the dyno. Work up to the redline to ascertain all is well, and then go for it.

Read more: http://www.stockcarracing.com/techarticles/scrp_0701_racing_engine_break_in/#ixzz2qKCI8ewB

  I didn't see anything about 500 miles?!??

  Maybe I'm just a contrarian, but that looks more like tuning on the dyno than it does 500 miles on the road.

  Doug

[RideFree]

You need to find a better dyno shop.

That is exactly one of the potential issues with using a dyno to break-in. There is no way to know if it's better or not. They may be great at tuning but not breaking-in.

..it can be done on the dyno.

True it can be but not on that articles one..."After about a 10-minute warm-up at 2,500 rpm or so, this roller-cammed engine was declared ready to do some serious power pulls. ...The results of the first pull really impressed me. ...Obviously, this guy knew what combinations worked. Having announced we were all done and it was lunchtime, I took the opportunity to pull the plugs to see what the mixture spread looked like. I also looked at the bores while doing this, and they did not look good! There were fine scores in every cylinder and deeper scores in some. In less than an hour's running, this engine had completely bypassed the broken-in phase of its life and had gone straight to the wearing or worn-out phase."

I didn't see anything about 500 miles?!??

500 miles is a fairly common number not only used by Harley but even for Corvettes in their manuals and many other vehicle manuals. I believe the closer you get to the 500 miles the reason is more for gear wear patterns to be established under normal loads. Like I said previously I do think the rings are mostly seated by 250 miles if broken in per the manufacturers specs.

I'll ride it to break it in. Like you all said it's a personal choice. Good discussion.

[uglyDougly]

'True it can be but not on that articles one..."After about a 10-minute warm-up at 2,500 rpm or so, this roller-cammed engine was declared ready to do some serious power pulls.'
  I don't think anybody said that a 10 minute warm-up and then a full throttle pull was a good idea. Not me for sure.

  This resembles a case of someone only seeing what they want to see.

  Doug

[RideFree]

'True it can be but not on that articles one..."After about a 10-minute warm-up at 2,500 rpm or so, this roller-cammed engine was declared ready to do some serious power pulls.'
  I don't think anybody said that a 10 minute warm-up and then a full throttle pull was a good idea. Not me for sure.

  This resembles a case of someone only seeing what they want to see.

  Doug

It was an example of a dyno not doing it right, not an indication of what someone here said. I never said someone here said it. If you're going to do it on a dyno pray they do it right.

The want to see always comes after the in-depth investigations.

Think about this as well, out of all the motorcycles ever created how many do you think were broken in by riding versus on a dyno compared to how many were not broken in correctly? I think it is safe to say the overwhelming majority of proper break ins have occurred by owners riding and following the manufacturers break in specs rather than on a dyno. I like being part of a successful overwhelming majority.

However, I would be convinced to break in on a dyno if I can be present and the dyno operator follows the manufacturers break in specs and it does not cost anymore than me riding it to break it in. I don't know, one of those may be a deal killer. ;-p

[springer-]

Think about this as well, out of all the motorcycles ever created how many do you think were broken in by riding versus on a dyno compared to how many were not broken in correctly? I think it is safe to say the overwhelming majority of proper break ins have occurred by owners riding and following the manufacturers break in specs rather than on a dyno. I like being part of a successful overwhelming majority.

And how many of those motorcycles left the factory with a completely unknown tune for the new engine?  We are not talking about a brand new bike with a factory tune ready for break in.  These are typically fresh builds without a tune.  You have to ask yourself "do you want to ride with a complete unknown for 500 miles or do you want to get it tuned and running right for the next 100K miles?".  For us it's a no brainer.  JMO .... good luck with your untuned break in.