Exhaust lobes and the magic cams

[No Cents]

gordonr's numbers he came up with on the 662-2 cams are a little low compared to my actual SAE graph until it got to the 5250 line where it did make 140/140 there. From about 4250 the Burns pipe takes over where the Zilla let off. My goal is to try to re-capture some of the lost bottom end tq some how and see if I can hold the hp where it's at.

[attach=0]

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[FSG]

maybe a crop tutorial is in need   

[No Cents]

 
thanks FSG...I just got my son to show me how to use paint and crop it.
Next time I'll know better!

[FSG]

Paint Dot Net  is much better and FREE   http://www.getpaint.net/

[TorQuePimp]

[attachimg=2]gordonr's numbers he came up with on the 662-2 cams are a little low compared to my actual SAE graph until it got to the 5250 line where it did make 140/140 there. From about 4250 the Burns pipe takes over where the Zilla let off. My goal is to try to re-capture the lost bottom end tq some how and see if I can hold the hp where it's at.

[attach=0]

  What has you convinced this cam is the answer ?

This dyno sheet would not get my juices flowing much....did they have results for the cam in a larger s&s headed engine ? or something similar to yours ?

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[No Cents]

just verbal numbers John...I've seen nothing on paper yet.    I'm suppose to be getting some dyno sheets with them in a 124 set at the same compression as mine...which as to date I haven't seen them from S&S yet. I e-mailed them earlier this week and asked them if they had gotten them yet. They said the guy hasn't sent them to them yet...but as soon as he does they will forward them to me.
  I was told it made like 22ft/lbs of tq more on the bottom end before 3000 rpm with the 635's and they pulled out better on the top end also. I think this was a comparison to the 640's...but I'm not absolutely for sure on the cams he had in it before testing the 635's.
I'm half scared to even try them now that gordonr has posted his calculations thru his program. My whole goal was to produce some earlier torque from 2500- 4250...which is where I lost it when I made my Burns pipe. I love the looks and sound of my pipe...but I might have to make adjustments to it if my end cap doesn't make the bottom end changes I'm hoping to see with it. I just hate the idea of hacking it up.
I do have a few other ideas kicking around in my head to possibly try for regaining my lost bottom end tq...and hopefully still be able to attain my top end hp.

[WI Bob]

Ray,
You won't be soft on the bottom. The 635HO is strong on the bottom. Mine was super with the previous 1.94" intake heads. This current set up was for breathing and HP. So it robbed a bit from the early tq. And I am at 10.5 or even a bit less.
Bob

[Don D]

Ray
If you could mine the active exhaust feature (AKA Buell and HD International) there is hope. I have not seen this done before and it would take the help of a Steve Cole or Dynojet (maybe Jamie can help). Otherwise it is going to be trade-offs. Plus you are sending out mixed signals, "go high"and "go less". Only way to have it all is power adders or leverage technology. The bumpstick I doubt will yield what you want. I still think less lift on the exhaust side of the 662 would not hurt and may help too. Got to find a cam grinder to help there.

[Nowhereman]

Ray
If you could mine the active exhaust feature (AKA Buell and HD International) there is hope. I have not seen this done before and it would take the help of a Steve Cole or Dynojet (maybe Jamie can help). Otherwise it is going to be trade-offs. Plus you are sending out mixed signals, "go high"and "go less". Only way to have it all is power adders or leverage technology. The bumpstick I doubt will yield what you want. I still think less lift on the exhaust side of the 662 would not hurt and may help too. Got to find a cam grinder to help there.

I agree.
The exhaust is more sensitive to time than area; (lift).
Less lift with an increase in duration should get him close.

[No Cents]

that's one of my worries Bob. My 110 heads have a 2.1 intake valve and I'm guessing flow pretty close to the same as your R&R heads. I don't want to go any softer on the bottom between 2500- 4250 rpm's. S&S told me that the 635's would be the hot ticket for that area and bump my tq up on the bottom while pulling out better on top too  I would love to see the sheet that proves this.
That rpm area is my main focus where I'm wanting to regain back most of my lost tq there...while still being able to use my Burns pipe without having to start hacking on it to see if I gain anything that way.

Don...I made a post earlier this winter trying to find idea's on cam spec's that would work for me...and possibly regain my lost tq. I never did get anyone to help advise me with actual spec's for what I was looking for. I can't blame anyone for not putting down on paper their idea's...it could possibly put mud in their face if they didn't work. I did find a cam company that would grind me anything I wanted...for a fair price. I just never did come up with cam spec's that I was satisfied with. I'm not a cam designer...so it was a big shot in the dark.
If I could raise my red line in my above dyno graph to meet the blue line below 4250...I'd be satisfied and I would have accomplished my goals.

[Don D]

S&S and Andrews will grind customs for not crazy money but you have to present them with the specs and even with the aid of computer programs to make predictions it is still a bit of a crap shoot (potential paper weight). Plus there is more to those lobes then meet the eye.  All we know is duration at .053 LSA LC lift. When you graph how these lobes are really profiled it would surprise you how identical specs can be much different when we only see some data out of context. Extreme example Woods TW8

[No Cents]

I understand that the lobe shaped profile/ramp is a key player on how a cam works at different timing degree's...and just by looking at the cam spec's alone...won't tell you the whole story on how a cam performs.
That is exactly what S&S has been telling me about these 635HO's with their untraditional looking spec's.
The company I found that was willing to grind me custom cams...gave me a price of almost half of what Andrews wanted. I just didn't have the confidence in the spec's I came up with to go ahead and have them grind me a set.

[gordonr]

I understand that the lobe shaped profile/ramp is a key player on how a cam works at different timing degree's...and just by looking at the cam spec's alone...won't tell you the whole story on how a cam performs.
That is exactly what S&S has been telling me about these 635HO's with their untraditional looking spec's.
The company I found that was willing to grind me custom cams...gave me a price of almost half of what Andrews wanted. I just didn't have the confidence in the spec's I came up with to go ahead and have them grind me a set.

I agree. Knowing whether you have great, good, avg or poor low lifts helps in choosing a cams aggressive ramp rate. Another reason for a little more info on a cam card 

[1FSTRK]

Ray your cam is fine, you had an exhaust that did not play well with your combination on the topend and went to an exhaust that has no bottom end. With the right exhaust you should be at or near 140/140 with a no dips curve that is over 100tq starting at 2200 rpm.

[No Cents]

I'm over the 100tq @ 2200 already...I just want to see if I can raise it up some between the 2500- 4250rpm without altering my pipe.
Riding the bike it seems to deliver a ton of tq off idle and has excellent in town slow speed manners. From 3500 -up when you twist the throttle...it really comes to life. So...do I need more tq on the bottom end...no...not for everyday riding on the street...it's about perfect.
But my goal is to eventually do a little track time with it and if I could recover a little bit of the lost tq...it might help it out on race day 
If a different cam and end cap will accomplish this for me...I'd be happy...if it doesn't...I'll have to look at my other options.

[mike jesse]

Why not put those Diamond pistons in it.

If that other 124 picked up 22 ft. lbs. with the cam swap, it had the wrong cam to begin with.

[vdop]

Why would you need torque on the bottom at the drag strip? It shouldn't ever see that kind of rpm after the light's green. Even if you did lug it out of the hole it's already got more than enough torque to lift the tire.

[No Cents]

I know...I just got back from a 45 minute ride on it. It has all the tq I need on it for a daily rider. I normally shift right @ 3K just putting along. It just proved to me again that it's got instant power from every where I tried to pull it from. I had it @ 1800 rpm's in third gear rolling thru town in a 25 mph speed zone and it wasn't even lugging. Once I left the 25 mph zone I quickly rolled on it with about 1/4 of the throttle from 1800 rpm's...and it just about threw me off the back.
I'm pretty much in awe every time I ride it.

[FSG]

Paint Dot Net  is much better and FREE   http://www.getpaint.net/

A member has PM'd me to report,

I clicked on a link you posted for a free paint program & what I got was an infected computer that even Norton can't clean up.

The link I posted is clean.  Has anyone else that clicked that link anything to report?

[Ohio HD]

I downloaded the program, AVG didn't see any problems. And I scan every file I get.

[No Cents]

I also clicked onto the link...it didn't cause me any trouble and my security didn't block it.

[Tsani]

None so far. Any chance he clicked on a different link on the page?

[1FSTRK]

gordonr's numbers he came up with on the 662-2 cams are a little low compared to my actual SAE graph until it got to the 5250 line where it did make 140/140 there. From about 4250 the Burns pipe takes over where the Zilla let off. My goal is to try to re-capture the lost bottom end tq some how and see if I can hold the hp where it's at.

gordonr actually did a good job of reverse engineering your numbers in the software.(Thanks gordonr for putting in the time and posting).There are many different combinations in the sim that will bring numbers close to a dyno run and it seems that things seldom match exactly. I understand your trying to get back the bottom tq you lost on the pipe swap and some type of cone or baffle with testing should show tq gains but as the software shows the cam swap to the 635 will most likely not be a help in this area, it is a hp cam not a bottom tq booster when compare to the 662-1 or 662-2.

[Tattoo]

Ray your cam is fine, you had an exhaust that did not play well with your combination on the topend and went to an exhaust that has no bottom end. With the right exhaust you should be at or near 140/140 with a no dips curve that is over 100tq starting at 2200 rpm.

   I am running the 662-2 cams as well and with the Supertrapp 2into1 they make real nice HP/TQ down low. I know if I changed my pipe i would gain a little up top but Im not willing to sacrifice the botom end & mid range pull that fits my riding style. This is My dyno sheet of my build (untuned).

[No Cents]

 
with you Eric and I fully understand what your saying.
My goal is to see if I can gain a little bottom end torque back and at the same time see if it will hold or maybe increase the hp.
If I was to gain a bunch of bottom end tq...I would honestly have to say I probably wouldn't need it...but it would make for a prettier graph.
It would make it pretty difficult to ride in town with the slow speed manners if it made much more tq on the bottom. I'm walking the fine line right now with the bottom end tq...trying to keep it manageable at slower speeds.
I do appreciate Gordon taking the time to run it thru his program. We have pm'd each other back and forth a few times and we both are in agreement that they look like they would be worth a try.
At this point...I'm still waiting for S&S to show me the dyno sheets they promised...plus Durwood hasn't admitted it yet...but he still has my tool box keys hidden some place