Ion sensing

[Grasmo]

I have several questions for some of the Gurus out there regarding ION sensing.
1. Is it designed to help in emissions or to save the engine?
2. If the circuit failed could it affect the spark in other ways besides the 4* retard?

I have been wrenching all of my life and I am old Skool, I am learning that without the proper computer tools you can guess yourself to death.
I recognize the superior tuning abilities with the EFI , but I also love the simplicity of a carbed bike.I am a self employed Lawn service and....can tune your chainsaw over the telephone, but I have a random miss at idle that is driving me nuts.......local dealer says he does not hear it....

[Don D]

http://delphi.com/pdf/techpapers/2013-01-0354.pdf

[gordonr]

Simplified, knock detection (or spark knock) thru mechanical devices such a engine mounted microphone or thru direct combustion information such as ion sensing is another input to your computer to bring your engine timing to max advance before the damaging spark occurs for all rpm and load conditions. It lowers emissions, provides better performance, helps prevent premature head gasket failures and engine damage. I haven't seen these circuits cause a miss fire. I do see the system take to much timing out on some performance builds. I would be looking else where on the miss condition. 

[strokerjlk]

I would be looking else where on the miss condition.

what year / model
if you have already changed spark plugs ..look at IAC port

[autoworker]

what year / model

Could it possibly be switching to heat management mode?

[ScottyMoore]

there are no DTCs?for Example PO1353 shows up with combustion Problems. Means you have a classical mechanical Problem, such as leaking Manifold seal, Iat is not working properly, plugs ore Coil are gonne south


G SM

[Grasmo]

The performance is cutting back on the rear cylinder at random....I have verified it by pulling front and rear plug wires independently at idle....If i pull the rear it will keep running....if I pull the front it cant dies....The bike runs very well every where except idle.Could it be a little bit lean on one cylinder at idle?// Either from an injector issue....I've tried wiggling stuff around while it is exhibiting the problem and no change.IAC checks out good...even cleaned it too....and it does move around at key on/off Etc.   I wish I knew how to make/post a sound clip of it...I guarantee you that some one has run into this before.....The local dealership "Tuner" wants me to get rid of my SERT and buy a new Super Tuner....he says he is familiar with that one and he is not familiar with the SERT.  I am wondering if I am a lot leaner at Idle than what is being displayed on the SERT screen because it seems he can not find a canned map that has a build similar to mine to find a starting point.

[autoworker]

Nothing wrong with the SERT.Find a better place for tuning and diagnostics.

It may be lean causing the rear cylinder to shut down (heat management).
What year and model is your bike?

[Uffda]

Do you still have the  Ion Sensing feature if you've installed a T-Max ECM?  Always wondered about that...

[Admiral Akbar]

Do you still have the  Ion Sensing feature if you've installed a T-Max ECM?  Always wondered about that...

Nope and isn't that great?? I believe the ion sensing system is patented by Delphi and Thunderheart can't use it unless they arrange some licencing with Delphi.. (not sure if it is even feasible)..  Of course after market false devices that use the Delphi Ecm let you turn it off..

Max

[turboprop]

The performance is cutting back on the rear cylinder at random....I have verified it by pulling front and rear plug wires independently at idle....If i pull the rear it will keep running....if I pull the front it cant dies

That phenonenom is not unique to Delphi FI with ion sensing. Carb'd bikes behave the same way, even with points.

[strokerjlk]

The performance is cutting back on the rear cylinder at random....I have verified it by pulling front and rear plug wires independently at idle....If i pull the rear it will keep running....if I pull the front it cant dies....The bike runs very well every where except idle.Could it be a little bit lean on one cylinder at idle?// Either from an injector issue....I've tried wiggling stuff around while it is exhibiting the problem and no change.IAC checks out good...even cleaned it too....and it does move around at key on/off Etc.   I wish I knew how to make/post a sound clip of it...I guarantee you that some one has run into this before.....The local dealership "Tuner" wants me to get rid of my SERT and buy a new Super Tuner....he says he is familiar with that one and he is not familiar with the SERT.  I am wondering if I am a lot leaner at Idle than what is being displayed on the SERT screen because it seems he can not find a canned map that has a build similar to mine to find a starting point.

What is the engine temp when you notice the idle miss?
When you look at the Afr data log , your looking at desired Afr , not actual Afr .
The only way to see  your actual Afr, is to sample it .
So you could very well be lean .
I have seen bikes running so lean at idle , that they wouldn't make it through 3 stop lights without hitting engine temps high enought to activate Temp management .

[Grasmo]

My bike will exhibit the random miss withing 2 seconds of cold start up...sometimes I may get 15 seconds of consistent idle out of it.....I have heard this bike sound cammy and them bbbbbbbbbbb like a motorboat and then back to cammy etc.I am in the market for a streetglide, so I may just get rid of it....I have had enough...Trust me I do not give up easily......I just want to know what the heck is going on.....I have seen some really bizarre stuff cause things and I want to be able to resolve this and add it to my list of  Oddities.   BTW it's an 07 dyna cvo 110

PS....I believe the SERT software asks for Cam numbers that are harley specific numbers and I believe we are not starting with the info needed to get us in the ball park to even start tuning it.

If any body out there could give me a starting point....here's exactly what I have:
07 dyna 110
rinehart 2into 1
The stock air filter is high flow
SERT
s&s ez start gear driven  585

purchased bike new......2 sets of headgaskets replaced under warranty

[strokerjlk]

I pmed you my e mail . Send me a copy of your map . I will see if anything stands out .

[vdop]

I know it's simple stupid stuff but I haven't seen you confirm that you tried a set of fresh plugs in it. I had a similar issue last season and chased it for quite a while. I had the random idle missfire and a stumble pulling away from stoplights but it ran perfect otherwise. I messed with the tune over and over only for it to get worse over time. I even lived with it like this on a trip  I swapped plug wires, checked everything I could think of. It had a relatively new set of se plugs in it so I never thought of that. Threw in an old set of 6R12s I had laying around and it was perfect, just had a bad plug.

Other than that, getting it tuned would be a great start.

[Grasmo]

I have tried 2 different sets of plugs too....I am gonna try to find a buddy to help me post a sound clip.
Thanks for the suggestion though...And I too have seen the plugs be defective right out of the box.....

[Admiral Akbar]

I think you need to figure out whether the bike has a real problem or just a crappy tune..

Max

[Durwood]

I pmed you my e mail . Send me a copy of your map . I will see if anything stands out .

Can't beat that 

[strokerjlk]

I think you need to figure out whether the bike has a real problem or just a crappy tune..

Max

Sounds like it does it on warmup enrichment ( that wouldn't be lean)
But if it doesn't do it on warmup enrichment and then does it when it comes of warmup enrichment , its probably to lean .
Most likely a closed loop idle and timing moving around .

[Super Dave]

I have tried 2 different sets of plugs too....I am gonna try to find a buddy to help me post a sound clip.
Thanks for the suggestion though...And I too have seen the plugs be defective right out of the box.....

My bike was throwing codes when I went to NGK platinum or iridium plugs. turned out it was related to the ion sensing.
Went back to HD plugs and codes were gone. Just in case one of the 2 sets of plugs were not HD you may try that.

[Super Dave]

Just reread your post.
I had a miss that was so slight that it was not even noticeable. The only reason I found out is because it kept throwing codes. Also, my GPS kept restarting like it lost power. Turned out to be the ignition switch. There is a little ball in there that makes a connection and had just worn out over time. Drove me crazy until I read a post here and checked it.

[Grasmo]

The dealer does not have a copy of my map......they don't even have the SERT  data link required to read TPS while tuning...maybe I just need to travel to another dealer....They did offer me a super tuner discounted to 379.00....I got my go pro out and videoed the bike at cold star up...now I got to figure out how to post the video.It skips the same at cold start up and normal operating temp....just real crappy. I am truly grateful for all the replies.

[strokerjlk]

The dealer does not have a copy of my map......they don't even have the SERT  data link required to read TPS while tuning...maybe I just need to travel to another dealer....They did offer me a super tuner discounted to 379.00....I got my go pro out and videoed the bike at cold star up...now I got to figure out how to post the video.It skips the same at cold start up and normal operating temp....just real crappy. I am truly grateful for all the replies.

send it to you tube ,then copy/paste the link here .
or email it to me .

[1FSTRK]

The dealer does not have a copy of my map......they don't even have the SERT  data link required to read TPS while tuning...maybe I just need to travel to another dealer....They did offer me a super tuner discounted to 379.00....I got my go pro out and videoed the bike at cold star up...now I got to figure out how to post the video.It skips the same at cold start up and normal operating temp....just real crappy. I am truly grateful for all the replies.

You need a different dealer and a real tune. Stop messin with it and get it tuned.

[joe_lyons]

If the dealer messes with super tuner and digital tech they have the proper connector for it.  Unless they have no serial-9 cable if so thats the easy part.  A different dealer for this might be a good idea but if no one has your map then your kinda out of luck.  Need to have the map saved somewhere to view it.  You could use someones PV to pull the map thats in your bike out as a stk. file and then have DJ convert it over to a editable file and then be able to view and make adjustments and copy/paste to the sent map.