Gaterman GP-1023 Lifters Long Term Wear

[strokerjlk]

May I ask? What kind of life span do you guys expect from this heavily stressed part, or what would be a good safe swap out point especially once branching away from a stock engine?
Ron

Depends on what you use for a lifter .
I just put mine back in with 20,000 on them . ( woods)
spend an extra 100.00 and you can get a good set that you don't have to worry about .

[Deye76]

May I ask? What kind of life span do you guys expect from this heavily stressed part, or what would be a good safe swap out point especially once branching away from a stock engine?
Ron

I was hoping for more than 1 season. 
Maybe nothing wrong with the Gaterman, pretty sure my "B" lifter in that hole rattled on cold start up also.

[rbabos]

May I ask? What kind of life span do you guys expect from this heavily stressed part, or what would be a good safe swap out point especially once branching away from a stock engine?
Ron

Depends on what you use for a lifter .
I just put mine back in with 20,000 on them . ( woods)
spend an extra 100.00 and you can get a good set that you don't have to worry about .

Not sure that matters. Needle bearings are the weak point on all of them. Are these something so special nobody else has figured it out. Roller failures in the auto world too, not just harleys and the serious guys swap them out at intervals prior to running into trouble. That's what spawned my question for the safe life expectancy. Back when, I figured 25k as a personal preference since lifter threads are never ending it seems. Don't have the headache any more going to v rod but still curious if some are adopting a service life interval rather then pushing it too far and trashing the engine? I think the days of lifters lasting three panhead rebuilds are pretty much gone due to cam profiles and spring pressures in recent years.
Ron

[q1svt]

The C lifters are the only other ones I have seen that look like that, I have pulled sets of B's that looked like new at 30K.

SE   http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,49579.0.html
Believe there are similar threads of lifters with frosting/flaking/etc... IIRC Herco had issues with a number of brands doing the same.

Noise, pump-up, leak-down, etc are as other mention due to running high rpm's, or high lifts and spring rates while running an OEM type lifter in performance motors.

What I haven't seen (might have happen but not indicated) some one with frosted lifters with different cases (S&S for example).

May I ask? What kind of life span do you guys expect from this heavily stressed part, or what would be a good safe swap out point especially once branching away from a stock engine?
Ron

Depends on what you use for a lifter .
I just put mine back in with 20,000 on them . ( woods)
spend an extra 100.00 and you can get a good set that you don't have to worry about .

[joe_lyons]

How do the cam lobes look?

From the top, it looks like there might be (is) a bad spot on the lobe with the pictured lifter.  I'll pull the cams out probably tonight for a closer look. And measure the pin/tappet clearance as requested.

There are too many different lifter brands (even if you discount the private labels) for it to be truly a lifter problem... IMHO.  Believe the lifters are just a symptom of the root issues.  Too many things have to be correctly machined/tolerances*, whether HD or aftermarket parts for the lifter roller and cam face to align correctly, unlike an American V8 motor.

Winston Wolf, if you can look for anything that might show where the two are not aligned:
Is there any wear marks on the side of the roller to the inside of lifter (side loading of the lifter roller)
Cam/lifter wear to one side of the roller/cam face  (the cams and lifter bearing axle not in parallel plains)


(*)
Lifter bores to cam face
alignment pin to lifter, lifter to cam face
Cam plate to locating block pins
inter and outer cam bearings


A .001 difference in a 22" small block camshaft front to rear, verses a 5" Harley cam is a world of difference in how the lifter roller and cam face align...

The C lifters are the only other ones I have seen that look like that, I have pulled sets of B's that looked like new at 30K.

Ive pulled B lifters out before that were the same way before and one I can remember for sure was using stock springs and 255 cams.  Sometimes "Potty mouth" just happens to good stuff.

[metaliser]

 Man I know this may sound crazy but no zinc in the Syn. oils we now run may be the difference. I read about the trouble JGR was having with oils and that's why they came up with there own brand with zinc in it. I think red line has zinc as well.

[autoworker]

I believe what we are seeing is smearing caused by acceleration.The cam lifts and rolls the lifter/roller and there is some sliding action between the two (limited traction,for lack of a better term).The higher the lift and the faster the ramps the more and sooner it shows up.I also believe spring pressure is also a factor and the balance between enough and too much pressure becomes more of an issue as lift and ramp speed increases.

Increased zinc may help.

However,wtfdik?

[HV]

Bearing Skate from SYN Oils 

[Jaycee1964]

Bearing Skate from SYN Oils 

  Here we go!  another oil thread... 

[Winston Wolf]

I measured the clearance between the lifters and the pin, and it is .008 on all of them. They do rotate slightly, I don't know how much is acceptable. The bores look generally well.  I did not see anything that looked out of alignment.  I tore the cams out.  That bad lifter did take a nick out of the lobe.  The rear intake roller was starting to get pretty bad too (pictured below).  The bearings are rough in all tappets, but the tappets are not scored on the outsides at all. 

[Jaycee1964]

I wouldn't reuse those cams.

[gonenorth]

   They will tear new lifter rollers up.

[BUBBIE]

Looking at your photo-bucket and seeing the Cam End Shows probably a Bad bearing in the motor cam side... That Might be some of the problem here... Others should go look or post it please for all to see.

Not only rough on the lobes but the End into the motor side looks like metal got to it...

ADDED:
Looking at your photobucket? That might be a different cam ?   How do the engine side ends of these cams look? Worn like the lobes?

signed....BUBBIE

[Winston Wolf]

Looking at your photo-bucket and seeing the Cam End Shows probably a Bad bearing in the motor cam side... That Might be some of the problem here... Others should go look or post it please for all to see.

Not only rough on the lobes but the End into the motor side looks like metal got to it...

ADDED:
Looking at your photobucket? That might be a different cam ?   How do the engine side ends of these cams look? Worn like the lobes?

signed....BUBBIE

That cam you are talking about is an andrews Ev13 out of an Evo. The ends of this twin cam look good. I don't think I would need to replace the bearings.

[strokerjlk]

The C lifters are the only other ones I have seen that look like that, I have pulled sets of B's that looked like new at 30K.

SE   http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,49579.0.html
Believe there are similar threads of lifters with frosting/flaking/etc... IIRC Herco had issues with a number of brands doing the same.

Noise, pump-up, leak-down, etc are as other mention due to running high rpm's, or high lifts and spring rates while running an OEM type lifter in performance motors.

What I haven't seen (might have happen but not indicated) some one with frosted lifters with different cases (S&S for example).

May I ask? What kind of life span do you guys expect from this heavily stressed part, or what would be a good safe swap out point especially once branching away from a stock engine?
Ron

Depends on what you use for a lifter .
I just put mine back in with 20,000 on them . ( woods)
spend an extra 100.00 and you can get a good set that you don't have to worry about .

Since that thread . I wore  a set of velvet touch lifters out in one trip to Daytona /key west . They wouldn't stay pumped up .
The wood lifters have 15,000 on them with the 662-2's and another 5000 miles on them with the same 266 cams that were in it , when it smeared  the original SE lifters . ( scotch brite polished )
The wood's look like they did the day i put them in .
That's good enough for me . Same motor same springs . Just more compression now .
FWIW I haven't seen any other lifters do this  except the C's and SE 's
I think you were eluding to the anti rotation pins earlier .
Should be seeing some aftermarket pins in the near future .

[q1svt]

I measured the clearance between the lifters and the pin, and it is .008 on all of them. They do rotate slightly, I don't know how much is acceptable.

Never seen a specification but .008 is to much... my guess is the case would expand more than the steel pin & lifter, so .001 (+- .0005) for a performance motor.  We'll hear clearances from others on this... With .570 lift I would guess you have about 175-180 lbs of seat pressure.  That added more load on the components causing the lifters to rotate enough to allow the rollers to slate on the cam face and wiping out the needle bearings and frosting the rollers.

Since that thread . I wore  a set of velvet touch lifters out in one trip to Daytona /key west .
The wood's look like they did the day i put them in .
That's good enough for me . Same motor same springs . Just more compression now .

I think you were eluding to the anti rotation pins earlier .
Should be seeing some aftermarket pins in the near future .

I have 15,000 on Jims Powerglide II's and they look new too... @.590 lift, w/higher oil pressure.

New pins cannot get here soon enough ... but as mention in the other thread they are/were available from Woods.

edited: Winston, if your still have the original lifters you might want to install them and measure the alignment pin clearances...  could be informative as to the lifter tolerances of the Gaterman to HD... if the HD's is better, then you might want to contact Gaterman about the issue.

edited: this is from Zippers   --  http://www.zippersperformance.com/media/wysiwyg/DownloadsPDFs/Red-Shift-Cams/RedShiftTCCamInstallationGuide_02262013.pdf

All Models – Final Setup Tips:
1.) Anti-Rotation Pin – Allowable Lifter Rotation – Now that the cam chest is assembled, install the hydraulic lifters into the engine. Make certain that you have the oil feed hole in the lifter facing outward. Using a set of feeler gauges, measure the clearance between the center of the anti-rotation pin, and the casting, when both lifters are positioned on the base circle of the cam. Do not measure at each individual lifter.
Red Shift recommends between 0.002"to 0.004" of clearance. Oversized pins are available in +0.002" and +0.006" sizes. Most will require the use of the +0.002" pins for proper clearance. Both too much, and too little clearance will result in operational issues. Not enough clearance can cause the lifters to stick, and too much clearance will allow the lifter roller to turn and side load under operation.

[BVHOG]

New pins are available from Zippers, that second to the last pic with the mark 3-4ths up the lobe on one side shows lifter rotation, I don not believe there is contamination as it would show up in the lifter body and bore.

[FSG]

from Zippers   --  http://www.zippersperformance.com/media/wysiwyg/DownloadsPDFs/Red-Shift-Cams/RedShiftTCCamInstallationGuide_02262013.pdf

[N-gin]

Those look like earlier Gatermans.  I only run my lifter for 15K miles and change them out.  Cheap insurance,  I've gone thru 2 sets of Gatermans using Dyno oil and have not seen wear like this.  Not that the oil has anything to do with it. (don't wanna start an oil war)

that is the earlier ones

[Deye76]

"that is the earlier ones '

When did they get revised?

[No Cents]

John...I think it was early last year. They changed the top of the lifter body so the p/rods were easier to get inside the cup while the lifters were inside the lifter blocks...and I think there was another change also...but I can't remember what it was.

[Jaycee1964]

"that is the earlier ones '

When did they get revised?

Not sure exaclty.  But I was using the newer ones for atleast a years.

[BUBBIE]

June 4th of 2013 is when I finished my build.
I know I ordered the gatermans from FSG right before then.
I too wondered "IF" I would get the newer style 1023's and did.

LOOKING:  I ordered them  May, 03, 2013... Got them Quick from FSG/Coyote...

I just RE-Set them to 21/22 flats yesterday From 3T.
(SE @ 24 thrds per inch)

I will run them today to Listen. I did develop a Little louder than usual but a smooth Even tic while on a Long several day run here in Az...

just wanted to try 3T- 4 flats to see "IF" they quiet back down... (14,000 miles & Happy with them)

signed....BUBBIE

Added:
Using SE 255's

[clawdog60]

Thats how mine looked or close to it after about 15K. I dont like the amount of rotation the lifter can do in regards to pin clearance on my engine. Hell I might as well run a mechanical flat tappet.

[twincam8888]

Bearing Skate from SYN Oils 

Excuse my ignorance but if there is enough friction to wear from "skating" would there not be enough friction to roll the bearing?