Gaterman GP-1023 Lifters Long Term Wear

[clawdog60]

I never have liked the clearance of my A.R.pins, I think its time to try to do something about it. I would like to watch the lifters withe the PR tubes off to watch what's going on but not sure if I want the mess to clean up. What would be a minimal acceptable pin clearance?

[Ohio HD]

Not saying that any excess lifter rotation is good with the Twin Cam. But if you look at some Evo's and any Pan or Shovel, then you can be afraid.

[05fatboy95]

Chicken or No Chicken , I went back in and Loosened my lifters to re set them...

EVERY Time  a thread like this I THINK I can hear noise.
Never,,, "Did" that sewing machine sound change BUT I "did" the re-set of the gatermans to 3T+3 to 4 flats from 3T of original setting... (21/22 flats on SE slender's at 24thrds per inch).

I Thought I could hear More noise on a 3 day run here in Az. Now, I really hear no difference than the Original sewing machine noise that was there before the added adjustment. (Never checked further to check pin play or looks of the lifter..... felt no need there)

When I first set them they sounded like they do now and Only IMAGINATION and Muffled ears make a Sound change here.

Have you ever notice; when your ears have Not Popped you can hear every noise in the motor... Better than a stethoscope...

If I would only quit reading about the problems and wait until I have or Hear them OR like many do AND I Will : change out at 25,000 miles........ 11 thous to go.....

signed....BUBBIE

Get louder exhaust or turn the radio up always works for me.

[76shuvlinoff]

Run a shovel with solids, then put a windshield on it and get back to me on noise.

Sorry, not downplaying the potential issue. I have learned something from this thread though, I guess I never thought of a lifter of any make as something you'd replace every < 20K miles. The Jims hydros in my shovel (S&S mill with S&S heads) have been running "solid" cams for over 30K miles now with a pile of those on a S&S 560 cam and then a square Leineweber cam. Maybe I better take a look.

[clawdog60]

I still think its a bunch of crap that many of these twin cam engines are smooth and quiet and some sound like its ready to come apart at any moment, stock, modified, whatever. Theres an underlying problem and I cant wait to get to the bottom of it.

[Ohio HD]

Run a shovel with solids, then put a windshield on it and get back to me on noise.

Sorry, not downplaying the potential issue. I have learned something from this thread though, I guess I never thought of a lifter of any make as something you'd replace every < 20K miles. The Jims hydros in my shovel (S&S mill with S&S heads) have been running "solid" cams for over 30K miles now with a pile of those on a S&S 560 cam and then a square Leineweber cam. Maybe I better take a look.

How about a Pan without the pan cover felts in there....    rattaataa ttaaa ratttaaattaa

[BVHOG]

What do you suppose happens to the roller when the lifter turns slightly, first off it will not roll true and slide a bit across the face of it, secondly it will push the roller against one side of the lifter body. Setting the anti rotation pin clearance is going to be even more important with the various lifters being used lately.

[N-gin]

Just checked the clearance on an engine I have apart and got .007. Fueling makes a +.002 and a .006 over..    clearance is .002-.004 either way I'll be too loose or too tight. Given the circumstance what would you do?

[FSG]

Well I broke out a measuring stick, some new HD -99B's, some GP1023's, took some measurements and drew it up in CAD.

The Flat of the GP1023 is .001" further away from the anti-rotation pin than the HD -99B.




Below are what the angles would be if the lifter rotated in the bore so as to take up the slack in the anti-rotation pin.




I hope it makes sense to you guys, it does to me.   

[FSG]

Just checked the clearance on an engine I have apart and got .007. Fueling makes a +.002 and a .006 over..    clearance is .002-.004 either way I'll be too loose or too tight. Given the circumstance what would you do?

What lifters did you do the check with?

Looks like I'll be getting some larger pins also.

[Oz Nightrain]

How often would u recommend changing hydraulic lifters?

[N-gin]

Just checked the clearance on an engine I have apart and got .007. Fueling makes a +.002 and a .006 over..    clearance is .002-.004 either way I'll be too loose or too tight. Given the circumstance what would you do?

What lifters did you do the check with?

Looks like I'll be getting some larger pins also.

I checked clearance with the GP1023 installed in the original harley block. The block has 30k miles on it. The lifters have about 3k. Also note that the pins show signs of rotating.
I'll see if I can get a pic.

[FSG]

I'm going to get some shim stock from my eng shop tomorrow.  Perhaps cut to length, fold to an L and have the anti-rotational pin lock it into position.

[N-gin]

I went on the zippers web site and found nothing on the anti-rotation pins. So I sent them an email about the purchase of all different sizes. Looking for .252,.254, and .256

FSG isn't it a good thing that these rotate? I don't understand the meaning of making them stationary. Or did I read that wrong?

[bobbyjoes54]

so i just installed new GM 1023 last week end,i didnt check clearence on pin,do i take it apart and check,darn

[FSG]

My anti-rotational pin lock it into position isn't going to prevent it rolling a little if that's what it wants to do, without a shim the pins cant roll all that much anyway, it may roll up but will be stopped by the gasket and fingers on the lifter cover.

While you have things open can you measure what vertical movement is possible?

[FSG]

so i just installed new GM 1023 last week end,i didnt check clearence on pin,do i take it apart and check,darn

There are slight variances in everything, lifters, pins, cases, etc, that I'd probably open the lifter covers just to know.

[rbabos]

Ran a set of Black opps for 12k on one build. There were no witness marks at the antirotation pins. This tells me they do nothing in normal lifter operations. I'd be a bit worried to tighten up the clearances too much. Little things like lifter rock on the toe of the cam jamming the pins sometimes if this isn't taken into account. Even set up a .002, there's enough rotation that could cause a problem. Basically the lifter is held in anti rotation from axle, needles and roller contact to the cam and the pins only a secondary device that hardly ever sees action. I for one do not trust the alignment between to lifter flat, pin, needles and roller to be on the exact same plane from the cam lobe on up. Hense the clearance at the anti rotation pins. I could be out in left field but it does offer food for thought.
Ron

[autoworker]

 

[FSG]

Ron what you say makes sense but if there is .007" as N-gin has measured then some .004" shim stock would bring it back within the .002 or .004 range and do no harm.  A lot easier than having multiple size pins on hand.

[rbabos]

Ron what you say makes sense but if there is .007" as N-gin has measured then some .004" shim stock would bring it back within the .002 or .004 range and do no harm.  A lot easier than having multiple size pins on hand.

No harm at all bring it back into the low end spec. I would do it myself for the warm and fuzzy feeling, however I  just don't feel it will solve the needle bearing deterioration down the road. I feel it's more load/impact related in some form.
Ron

[q1svt]

Racing always teaches you that the weakest link is what breaks, fix that and the next weakest link is discovered....

Reply# 19 was to stress that all of the lifter threads bounce around on the topic like everything is related and is caused by the same thing when that is seldom the case.  If we understand and fix the alignment pin issue (hopefully lifter manufacturers will correct their problem with clearances), then we will be able to gather better data on whether there are other alignment issues, and the effect of high lift/valve spring on lifter. 

[jrgreene1968]

I went on the zippers web site and found nothing on the anti-rotation pins. So I sent them an email about the purchase of all different sizes. Looking for .252,.254, and .256

FSG isn't it a good thing that these rotate? I don't understand the meaning of making them stationary. Or did I read that wrong?

i couldnt find them on the site either..but called, and they had em in stock. 32 bucks.

[q1svt]

I'm going to get some shim stock from my eng shop tomorrow.  Perhaps cut to length, fold to an L and have the anti-rotational pin lock it into position.

FSG, good idea... I was thinking to bend it into a ' [ ' and the short tabs face away from the roll pin into the pocket (in the picture, to the right of the feeler gauge).

[Durwood]

Why not tie em together, this is what we run in the solid roller sbc's
Link