Gaterman GP-1023 Lifters Long Term Wear

[blackhillsken]

Ok, I'll jump in.
Like others have said, I feel the lifters will "try" to stay straight as long as there is contact roller-to-cam. Self-centering and self-aligning. Pins are there for initial install and in the case of float or stuck valve issues.
That being said.............. what if there was the slightest mis-manufacturing of the cam lobe where it was not perfectly perpendicular to the lifter bore ?  What if the case angle is off the slightest amount ?  Either of these scenarios would result in lifter "frosting" or failure.  More to think about.

That too was the point I was trying to make. Up lobe and down lobe can cause the oscillations if alignment isn't perfect. This would occur even setting up the pin with .002 and does one really want to try and control this with the pin anyway. It's been shown the pin doesn't rotate and no lifter witness marks from operation.  Seems pointless since the original problem will still exist. That could very well be a slight rotation as the roller transfers from one side of the lobe to the other if alignment isn't dead nuts.
Ron

[bigbearkiller]

    Category: Harley-Davisdon Lifters

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[q1svt]

I saying that the gasket may take up that .004"-.008" and make the possible rotating angle less than that you listed.  Just saying to check it as it is assembled and in running order.

If someone needs to install a pin that's .006-8 oversized just double up the gaskets... it only keeps the oil in and maybe holds the pin a little 

[q1svt]

In reality the lifter should never contact the pin when the lifter is going up and down. My view it's only there for safety, like a valve sticking, taking the load off the roller which could allow it to spin sideways in the bore. Take a good close look at the flats and roller. If they were used any amount there would be lines gouged in them or rub marks on the lifer flat. I ran Black Opps in my 113 and after 12k the black coating on the flats was fully intact. Possibly if the clearance on the pin was dropped to .002 it may have shown more contact.
Ron

Thats why there is no damage done if a guy forgets to put the pins in .

I would pay good money to be a fly on the wall when that motor grenades...

Kinda like saying you don't need axle nuts cause the gyo effect of the wheels will keep the axles on 

[Admiral Akbar]

When the lifter is on a cam ramp, the cam more or less holds the lifter straight.. At the top of the cam and heal the lifter is free to rotate..  I would expect that for the most part they could staiy in alignment without the pin as the ramps could set them straight and there isn't much of a force wanting to turn the lifter. As Ken says cam alignment comes into play here..

Don't believe me??. Next time you have a motor apart, see at what points on the cam the lifter can turn.. On the ramps, the lifter will rise as it's twisted which means the valve train load will keep it straight.

Max

[strokerjlk]

In reality the lifter should never contact the pin when the lifter is going up and down. My view it's only there for safety, like a valve sticking, taking the load off the roller which could allow it to spin sideways in the bore. Take a good close look at the flats and roller. If they were used any amount there would be lines gouged in them or rub marks on the lifer flat. I ran Black Opps in my 113 and after 12k the black coating on the flats was fully intact. Possibly if the clearance on the pin was dropped to .002 it may have shown more contact.
Ron

Thats why there is no damage done if a guy forgets to put the pins in .

I would pay good money to be a fly on the wall when that motor grenades...

Kinda like saying you don't need axle nuts cause the gyo effect of the wheels will keep the axles on 

The point is it didn't grenade .

[q1svt]

Google broken lifter dog bone...

GM, Ford, Dodge, Jessel and others wouldn't be selling high dollar parts to keep them lifters from turning.

I got $$$ burning a hole in my pocket if you want to strap one of your bikes down on a dyno?

[q1svt]

In reality the lifter should never contact the pin when the lifter is going up and down. My view it's only there for safety, like a valve sticking, taking the load off the roller which could allow it to spin sideways in the bore. Take a good close look at the flats and roller. If they were used any amount there would be lines gouged in them or rub marks on the lifer flat. I ran Black Opps in my 113 and after 12k the black coating on the flats was fully intact. Possibly if the clearance on the pin was dropped to .002 it may have shown more contact.
Ron

Thats why there is no damage done if a guy forgets to put the pins in .

I would pay good money to be a fly on the wall when that motor grenades...

Kinda like saying you don't need axle nuts cause the gyo effect of the wheels will keep the axles on 

The point is it didn't grenade .

Then they were very lucky...
... to suggest that pins are not needed could be acted upon by someone to dumb to know better...

[Admiral Akbar]

In reality the lifter should never contact the pin when the lifter is going up and down. My view it's only there for safety, like a valve sticking, taking the load off the roller which could allow it to spin sideways in the bore. Take a good close look at the flats and roller. If they were used any amount there would be lines gouged in them or rub marks on the lifer flat. I ran Black Opps in my 113 and after 12k the black coating on the flats was fully intact. Possibly if the clearance on the pin was dropped to .002 it may have shown more contact.
Ron

Thats why there is no damage done if a guy forgets to put the pins in .

I would pay good money to be a fly on the wall when that motor grenades...

Kinda like saying you don't need axle nuts cause the gyo effect of the wheels will keep the axles on 

The point is it didn't grenade .

Then they were very lucky...
... to suggest that pins are not needed could be acted upon by someone to dumb to know better...

Not sure he is saying that.. Just that it's possible for the motor to run without grenading.

Max

[1FSTRK]

In reality the lifter should never contact the pin when the lifter is going up and down. My view it's only there for safety, like a valve sticking, taking the load off the roller which could allow it to spin sideways in the bore. Take a good close look at the flats and roller. If they were used any amount there would be lines gouged in them or rub marks on the lifer flat. I ran Black Opps in my 113 and after 12k the black coating on the flats was fully intact. Possibly if the clearance on the pin was dropped to .002 it may have shown more contact.
Ron

Thats why there is no damage done if a guy forgets to put the pins in .

I would pay good money to be a fly on the wall when that motor grenades...

Kinda like saying you don't need axle nuts cause the gyo effect of the wheels will keep the axles on 

The point is it didn't grenade .

Then they were very lucky...
... to suggest that pins are not needed could be acted upon by someone to dumb to know better...

It does help make the point the pins are there to prevent the lifter from turning in the event it should try to but not installed to guide the lifter in normal continues contact. As Ron and others have pointed out it is more of a safety factor and if your lifter anti-rotation pins show much sign of contact or wear you have other problems. Given the small contact patch where the lifter would be using the pin for a guide how long would it take to wear either the edge of the lifter or a notch in the pin if it had much pressure at all.

[q1svt]

Based on the number of frosted lifters in Harley's... the loose tolerances that have already been posted within this thread by people like FSG, Joe_Lyon's, them pins and the clearances are important ...

Yes I think he said it, otherwise I would not have questioned him and others... and FWIW I can ride my bike without axle nuts, brakes, with low tire pressure, no shocks, no seat, etc without incurring any issues, damage, or lost of life... but for how long? and the bigger question is why the hel1 would someone do it?

Remember we're talking HD, if they could remove the pins to save a nickel don't you think they would have done it already... heck, using pins (compared to other motors using roller lifters), they've done it as cheep as can be done. 

I think this subject has officially regressed to an  thread

[1FSTRK]

Based on the number of frosted lifters in Harley's... the loose tolerances that have already been posted within this thread by people like FSG, Joe_Lyon's, them pins and the clearances are important ...

It is a pretty big assumption that this extra clearance is the cause of the frosting. You could just as easily assume the large number of bikes running the large tolerances reported proves that the pins do little at all.

Plenty of assumptions and opinions but no root cause analyses leading to any definite conclusion.

[q1svt]

I've laid out my thoughts in replies # 19, 28, 40... plus a few more. So where are yours?

You clearly been working on HD's longer than me, but I'm going with Zipper's specifications in blue printing lifter to pin clearances (.002-.004). Something tells me Dan knows (h)is "Potty mouth".

[clawdog60]

I agree that very little if any contact should take place between lifter and pin. I can also see how without near perfect cam lobe to lifter bore alignment some radial movement of the lifter is going to happen causing roller frosting, excess noise. Will have to make a mess and run the engine without lifter covers in place and then with covers in place without push rod tubes. Run without the pins? I not that much of a gambler.

[strokerjlk]

Based on the number of frosted lifters in Harley's... the loose tolerances that have already been posted within this thread by people like FSG, Joe_Lyon's, them pins and the clearances are important ...

Yes I think he said it, otherwise I would not have questioned him and others... and FWIW I can ride my bike without axle nuts, brakes, with low tire pressure, no shocks, no seat, etc without incurring any issues, damage, or lost of life... but for how long? and the bigger question is why the hel1 would someone do it?

Remember we're talking HD, if they could remove the pins to save a nickel don't you think they would have done it already... heck, using pins (compared to other motors using roller lifters), they've done it as cheep as can be done. 

I think this subject has officially regressed to an  thread

Why did he do it ?
Because It was his first cam swap .
I guess I should have put a disclaimer in the post .
Do not try this at home .
I wasn't advocating the practice . Just pointing out it has happened .
I bet there are a few other around here that have done the same thing .
I have had the gaskets and lifter blocks in place and discovered  I forgot the pins .
This guy discovered the pins under a shop towel , after he had rode the bike on two afternoon rides . He was cleaning up his workbench and found them .
He was pretty shook up when he called me. But all is well and he still has the bike to this day .

 

[1FSTRK]

I've laid out my thoughts in replies # 19, 28, 40... plus a few more. So where are yours?

You clearly been working on HD's longer than me, but I'm going with Zipper's specifications in blue printing lifter to pin clearances (.002-.004). Something tells me Dan knows (h)is "Potty mouth".

Nothing wrong with tightening up the specs in any production motor. I posted the link to the site where my pins came from so others can benefit also. I think that if you are going to bother to address this, the site gives you the ability to set the clearance at the .002 minimum instead of accepting the.004 because of a lack of choices. I just do not see anything saying this is a cure to frosting.

What if any testing or evidence do you see that says it does?

Also from your post #40

Never seen a specification but .008 is to much... my guess is the case would expand more than the steel pin & lifter, so .001 (+- .0005) for a performance motor.  We'll hear clearances from others on this... With .570 lift I would guess you have about 175-180 lbs of seat pressure.  That added more load on the components causing the lifters to rotate enough to allow the rollers to slate on the cam face and wiping out the needle bearings and frosting the rollers.

What leads you to believe that spring pressures are the cause of lifter rotation?
I am trying to understand how a force applied down on the top of the lifter might cause the lifter to spin in it's bore.

Added:
Have you seen cases where the higher the spring pressure the more wear in the pins from contacting the lifters harder?

[blackhillsken]

I've laid out my thoughts in replies # 19, 28, 40... plus a few more. So where are yours?

You clearly been working on HD's longer than me, but I'm going with Zipper's specifications in blue printing lifter to pin clearances (.002-.004). Something tells me Dan knows (h)is "Potty mouth".

q1svt,
Thanks for editing out your "...heck, using pins (compared to other motors using roller lifters), they've done it as cheep as can be done. "  comment out of your post.  I was all set to let you know Harley does use roller lifters.   

edit:
Ooops, I was looking at the wrong post.
Guess you meant pins vs. girdles in other roller motors..........

[Durwood]

All these pin theories are good, but I still say it's the lifter, not the pin clearance, I brought it up and Jim brought it up and no one wants to address the fact that up until the "C" lifter this was a NON issue...JMO

Now back to your regularly scheduled brain storming session

[No Cents]

 no one wants to address the fact that up until the "C" lifter this was a NON issue

[/quote]

     

[rbabos]

All these pin theories are good, but I still say it's the lifter, not the pin clearance, I brought it up and Jim brought it up and no one wants to address the fact that up until the "C" lifter this was a NON issue...JMO

Now back to your regularly scheduled brain storming session

no one wants to address the fact that up until the "C" lifter this was a NON issue

     
[/quote]
Not to be a smart ass but isnt the thread called
Gaterman GP-1023 Lifters Long Term Wear that showed issues we are discussing? 
Ron

[hrdtail78]

All these pin theories are good, but I still say it's the lifter, not the pin clearance, I brought it up and Jim brought it up and no one wants to address the fact that up until the "C" lifter this was a NON issue...JMO

Now back to your regularly scheduled brain storming session

Exactly.  I never saw this problem with B lifters either.  Max brings up the point of lifter being able to rotate off the cam lope.  Can it rotate as easy with 20 psi oil, 32, 45?  Or just when we let it sit and bleed off?

[blackhillsken]

 

Exactly.  I never saw this problem with B lifters either.  Max brings up the point of lifter being able to rotate off the cam lope.  Can it rotate as easy with 20 psi oil, 32, 45?  Or just when we let it sit and bleed off?
[/quote]

Good question.
That was why I suggested loading the lifter by adjusting the pushrod (generate pressure until it bleeds).
Without actually trying it, I'd be inclined to agree with Max that you could rotate the lifter on the nose and heel of the cam.

[rbabos]

Exactly.  I never saw this problem with B lifters either.  Max brings up the point of lifter being able to rotate off the cam lope.  Can it rotate as easy with 20 psi oil, 32, 45?  Or just when we let it sit and bleed off?

Good question.
That was why I suggested loading the lifter by adjusting the pushrod (generate pressure until it bleeds).
Without actually trying it, I'd be inclined to agree with Max that you could rotate the lifter on the nose and heel of the cam.
[/quote]


Absolutely. Tip of the cam/ radius of the roller might as well be two ball bearings for a brief time frame even with valve spring pressures in play. The time frame would be too short for the mass of the body to follow.
Ron

[blackhillsken]

As far as whether lifter wear started before or after the B lifters, I'm sure some of these motors were subjected to overly rich air/fuel mixtures from the start (1999), but there is no doubt that, by now, there are substantially more fuel injected motors running around than when the TC debuted, and that many of them are running way too rich due to bad maps or poor O2 sensor locations.
I bring this up because I have seen the effects of gas-diluted oil (not another oil thread, thank God) on cams and lifters. Not a pretty sight. Rings aren't the only thing that wear from diluted oil. Lifters take a real beating being forced up the steep cam lobe ramp and if the oil can't do it's job, the result will be wear.
Easy indicator of diluted oil (if you can't smell it on the dipstick) is crappy mileage. If your gas mileage is in the 20s or low to mid 30s, you just might be a redne......  ( No, that's another joke )
........you (no poster in particular, general statement ) just might be diluting your oil and resulting in wear.
More random thoughts

[q1svt]

Based on the number of frosted lifters in Harley's... the loose tolerances that have already been posted within this thread by people like FSG, Joe_Lyon's, them pins and the clearances are important ...

Yes I think he said it, otherwise I would not have questioned him and others... and FWIW I can ride my bike without axle nuts, brakes, with low tire pressure, no shocks, no seat, etc without incurring any issues, damage, or lost of life... but for how long? and the bigger question is why the hel1 would someone do it?

Remember we're talking HD, if they could remove the pins to save a nickel don't you think they would have done it already... heck, using pins (compared to other motors using roller lifters), they've done it as cheep as can be done. 

I think this subject has officially regressed to an  thread

Why did he do it ?
Because It was his first cam swap .
I guess I should have put a disclaimer in the post .
Do not try this at home .
I wasn't advocating the practice . Just pointing out it has happened .
I bet there are a few other around here that have done the same thing .
I have had the gaskets and lifter blocks in place and discovered  I forgot the pins .
This guy discovered the pins under a shop towel , after he had rode the bike on two afternoon rides . He was cleaning up his workbench and found them .
He was pretty shook up when he called me. But all is well and he still has the bike to this day .

That's what I thought too... my reply just didn't do a good job of adding a nice disclaimer