Gaterman GP-1023 Lifters Long Term Wear

[rbabos]

I think excessive roller and bearing clearance would cause the roller to slide across the lobe, rather than roll and follow it. Maybe has more friction with excessive clearance?

Sorry, I've not experienced more friction from sloppy clearances. This applies to lifters too.
Ron

[Ohio HD]

I think excessive roller and bearing clearance would cause the roller to slide across the lobe, rather than roll and follow it. Maybe has more friction with excessive clearance?

Sorry, I've not experienced more friction from sloppy clearances. This applies to lifters too.
Ron

Gee Ron, sorry to hear that...    I always have very tight clearances....   

[rbabos]

I think excessive roller and bearing clearance would cause the roller to slide across the lobe, rather than roll and follow it. Maybe has more friction with excessive clearance?

Sorry, I've not experienced more friction from sloppy clearances. This applies to lifters too.
Ron

Gee Ron, sorry to hear that...    I always have very tight clearances....   

Not what she said.
Ron

[Ohio HD]

I think excessive roller and bearing clearance would cause the roller to slide across the lobe, rather than roll and follow it. Maybe has more friction with excessive clearance?

Sorry, I've not experienced more friction from sloppy clearances. This applies to lifters too.
Ron

Gee Ron, sorry to hear that...    I always have very tight clearances....   

Not what she said.
Ron

You know Bertha lies!   She does!   

[No Cents]

I don't want this to turn this into an oil thread...but my take (for what ever it's worth) on the lifter rollers frosting is that the oil needs Zinc in it.
I ran the Amsoil Dominator synthetic SAE 60wt (which has a good amount of Zinc in it) in my 124 last summer with a new set of Gaterman 1023's in it since I first built it and fired it up. My lifter rollers...the last time I looked...still looked brand new and showed no signs of any kind of frosting or wear.
It might go back to the hardening process the manufactures put their rollers thru...and not the proper additives (like Zinc) in a lot of oils that are advertised as motorcycle oils.
OK...back to the regular scheduled programming.   

[rbabos]

I don't want this to turn this into an oil thread...but my take (for what ever it's worth) on the lifter rollers frosting is that the oil needs Zinc in it.
I ran the Amsoil Dominator synthetic SAE 60wt (which has a good amount of Zinc in it) in my 124 last summer with a new set of Gaterman 1023's in it since I first built it and fired it up. My lifter rollers...the last time I looked...still looked brand new and showed no signs of any kind of frosting or wear.
It might go back to the hardening process the manufactures put their rollers thru...and not the proper additives (like Zinc) in a lot of oils that are advertised as motorcycle oils.
OK...back to the regular scheduled programming.   

Too much zinc can cause the same effect as in increasing wear.  Theres a limit between saving and creating destruction, not that we are close to that with our oil choices .  The way I see it, the oils most of us use that are MC rated are safe for flat tappets so shouldn't be a problem for rollers. One thing they are not forgiving of is debri. Where a flat tappet will scrape a particle away in it's path usually , the roller will try to drive over it, possibly pitting the surface. Over time with this repeated action the surface takes a dump then the process starts feeding itself from the metal coming off the contact areas. If oil was to blame, it would have to be the level of contamination within it, as I see it.
Ron

[laserp]

If you want to get back to cause and effect.  What's wrong with the gaterman lifters? Oil? Come on. 

[BUBBIE]

I think excessive roller and bearing clearance would cause the roller to slide across the lobe, rather than roll and follow it. Maybe has more friction with excessive clearance?

Too Loose:
How about;  it IS "Hammering" when starting out with too much clearance and then "Pounding" and Failure ... That is the light tapping then gets Louder as it gets looser...

signed....BUBBIE

[04 SE Deuce]

Hammering...Pounding...tapping...Louder,  you left out faster...yeah it gets looser after all that,  normally right after louder.


13 pages and  300+ replies,  has anybody communicated with a cam/lifter manufacturer/company for answers?  Or other industry types that would know.  Rick

[joe_lyons]

My possible thought with the excess clearance is that mabie the rollers are possibly able to try to cock and angle a bit and stop the roller for just brief bit.  Or it could just be from some crappy hardening.

[04 SE Deuce]

Joe,  What does the MOCO say,  do they still have regional service reps?   Rick

[strokerjlk]

My possible thought with the excess clearance is that mabie the rollers are possibly able to try to cock and angle a bit and stop the roller for just brief bit.  Or it could just be from some crappy hardening.

they are still hard . i tested them ( SE lifters ) . and the cams (SE comp cams) 
its the crappy metal. like I said before all metal prices are high. everyone is forced to make changes,to offset the bottom line.
Rick
when I talked to the head of SE engineering about my lifters.....he said they were aware of the problem.
did he want two of my lifters free of charge ,and not expecting anything in return? ....No thats OK thanks

[joe_lyons]

So do you think that the last of the 99B lifter rollers we're going to crap metal?  I want unobtanium lifters and cams.

Ohh ya FSG I installed VT-850 lifters in the CVO today and came up with .002" and .003". The gasket takes up the play when its torqued down. 

[strokerjlk]

So do you think that the last of the 99B lifter rollers we're going to crap metal?  I want unobtanium lifters and cams.

good question . 
I have seen B'S and C'S in the same stock motor 

[mike jesse]

As promised.......
For the heck of it I also checked the B's that the RG came from the factory with.
All 4 lifters had .0005 in. of movement using Joe's set up. 3 were frosted.

The Gatorman's I checked had from .0007 to .0014 in. of movement.
That's 2 sets with about 3500-4000 miles each. The rollers looked pristine 
with no frosting or marks of any kind. Amsoil or VR 1.

Bottom line for me is to take the stock lifters out of a new bike at the first service, or with the first cam swap.

[metaliser]

So do you think that the last of the 99B lifter rollers we're going to crap metal?  I want unobtanium lifters and cams.

Ohh ya FSG I installed VT-850 lifters in the CVO today and came up with .002" and .003". The gasket takes up the play when its torqued down.

Joe I have the Comp 850-1's installed and after reading all 13 pages of this debate I feel pretty good about the choice now but as you and I spoke of I too think that some oils that have less ZDDP could help in the frosting of the rollers. I always used Amsoil but after looking at my lifters at 27,000 miles and did a little digging into oils and ZDDP the Mobil 1 V-Twin has 1700 ppm compared to 1400 ppm in Amsoil. Redline and JGR have more than either but a lot harder to find. Again not trying to start a oil debate but no doubt the ZDDP does have or I should say imo it would have somewhat of a effect on the wear of the rollers over a period of time. This is why you have to use a cam break-in oil for a flat tappet cam now or it will end up like Fast & Loud bunch, took the cam out in 20 mins due to oil not having enough ZDDP added.
  By the way, who actually makes the lifters for Comp Cams, do they produce there own? 

[N-gin]

Thank you for measuring those lifters.
lots of info.
I add zddp to my assembly oil when putting together an engine.

[FSG]

As mentioned earlier by (search) a straight edge across the pin will rock slightly.

[joe_lyons]

What is the clearance after you put the cover on and torque it down? 

[joe_lyons]

I checked four 99b lifters that had frosting on the rollers and they were all at .0005" I agree with Jim I think its just a crappy metal/ dissimilar metal problem.  But the extra roller clearance can't be helping at all.

[FSG]

What is the clearance after you put the cover on and torque it down?

It's all mock up for pix, I'll finish it off today and measure before and after.

[FSG]

Here's the front -99B Lifters that I took out, they have around 40Kmi on them, Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50 from the first service.  Cams (Andrews 26G) show slight markings but nothing of concern, same with the lifters, which I'd easily put back in.

[FSG]

What is the clearance after you put the cover on and torque it down?

It's all mock up for pix, I'll finish it off today and measure before and after.

OK, fitted some GP1023 and SB PRs.

Before the cover went on a .06mm (.0023")  feeler gauge fits between the pin and the boss whereas a .07mm (.0027") would not.

The gap closed up a touch once the cover and gasket went on, a .05mm (.0019") feeler gauge fits easy while there is drag on a .06mm feeler.

[PanHeadRed]

Past the point of shimming.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[rbabos]

Past the point of shimming.

How's the rollers look?

Ron