Gaterman GP-1023 Lifters Long Term Wear

[rbabos]

Front exhaust will put em to the test .

Yes, not really the front exhaust in itself but the drive and cam ramp loadings effects on this lifter during the front exhaust events.
Ron

[BUBBIE]

Could it be the Gas and Contaminates  in the oil Helping to Eat the finish off the cams and rollers... Starting on the hardest driven one,  the front exhaust?

That was my BAD one. It showed the No Shine lobe and roller.

signed....BUBBIE

[rbabos]

Could it be the Gas and Contaminates  in the oil that Eats the finish off the cams and rollers... Starting on the hardest driven one,  the front exhaust?

That was my BAD one. It showed the No Shine lobe and roller.

signed....BUBBIE

Gas itself won't eat anything but thins the oil. Front exhaust might show the issue sooner.
Ron

[Thumper Buttercup]

OK Guys,

We are pulling our original Gatermans this week, I've got a set of the new style soaking
in oil getting ready for the install.  When we put our Gatermans back in this was the set
that made noise and I found a piece of metal in one of them, we took them down and
cleaned and inspected the whole set and installed them.

At this time we were chasing the tick again, talking to Baisley's he mentioned the anti rotation
pin clearance and we ordered a couple sets in the different size after seeing how much our
lifters were rotating.  We had to use Front .0025  Rear .003 to bring them into Zippers spec.

So we have right at 8000 miles on these and again we are chasing the tick pulling the front
rocker arm cover and see if we are hitting on that exhaust side.


So what pictures and measurements do you guys want to see here???  I'll try to take the measurements
before and after the lifter covers are removed.

[06roadglide]

A question for the guys that have seen the front exhaust lifter failing.
Were they on gear driven cams?
Wondering if reverse rotation of the front cam is causing anything with some cams profiles?

[Admiral Akbar]

A question for the guys that have seen the front exhaust lifter failing.
Were they on gear driven cams?
Wondering if reverse rotation of the front cam is causing anything with some cams profiles?

Gear drive cams,,, the front cam rotates the same direction as chain...

Max

[06roadglide]

A question for the guys that have seen the front exhaust lifter failing.
Were they on gear driven cams?
Wondering if reverse rotation of the front cam is causing anything with some cams profiles?

Gear drive cams,,, the front cam rotates the same direction as chain...

Max

Doh!  You are correct.

[Hossamania]

So, you're saying 65,000 high rpm miles on my lifters with a 55 cam is too much?

[joe_lyons]

OK Guys,

We are pulling our original Gatermans this week, I've got a set of the new style soaking
in oil getting ready for the install.  When we put our Gatermans back in this was the set
that made noise and I found a piece of metal in one of them, we took them down and
cleaned and inspected the whole set and installed them.

At this time we were chasing the tick again, talking to Baisley's he mentioned the anti rotation
pin clearance and we ordered a couple sets in the different size after seeing how much our
lifters were rotating.  We had to use Front .0025  Rear .003 to bring them into Zippers spec.

So we have right at 8000 miles on these and again we are chasing the tick pulling the front
rocker arm cover and see if we are hitting on that exhaust side.


So what pictures and measurements do you guys want to see here???  I'll try to take the measurements
before and after the lifter covers are removed.

Using tapered pushrods?

[Thumper Buttercup]

Hey Joe,

Yep using SE tapered, we pulled the front rocker arm cover and inspected clearances
everything looked good, as I had the front push rods out and was installing them I reached
up and grabbed the front exhaust rocker arm, there was a catch in it.  I had just read
about Coyotes post on his tick and thought the parts were new 8000 miles ago but just
thought to reach up and grab it while the push rods were out.

This rocker arm and rod was replaced 8000 miles ago with the lifters and new push rods.

The rocker arm developed a bur where the seam is in the rocker arm, this was on the
pressure side near the exhaust valve.  I dressed out the support plate was not much
there and filed and dressed out the rocker arm very smooth now.

[Thumper Buttercup]

Here is what the front lifters looked like, also a shot of the Zippers Anti Rotation
Pin, there were no marks on the Pin except where the gasket pressed on it, there
is no marks at all from the lifter.

One thing that concerns us in the marks on the bottom portion of the lifters, the rollers
are fine no wear or marks, the lifter bore on the crankcase is perfect and no marks
in it or anything you can feel.

There are no marks on the cams either.

The new Gatermans are so tight that it had to be perfectly aligned to get it in, the
fit to me is a lot better than the old ones.  There is no play at all with the new lifters
and how they fit into the crankcase.

[Deye76]

The B lifters (25,000mi on 'em) I pulled from my motor last year have marks in the same location as above (Thumpers) on all but the front exhaust. They are not as pronounced as the ones above, very fine lines, lifter bores looked good also, and the rollers look almost new.

[rbabos]

Don't see too much unusual there. Fairly typical of a lifter on the thrust side where the aluminum traps some fine debri into the surface and shows up as marks on the soft steel body.
Ran Black Opps once and this was the first area for the oxide to show wear also, other then the roller itself.
Ron

[Thumper Buttercup]

That Pin had a clearance of .003 on one lifter and .004 on the other, there were
no marks on the pin that the lifter had ever made contact either.  I put the new
Gatermans in and the clearance checked out the same as the old Gatermans.

[Ohio HD]

OK, I'll weigh in now that I've changed the Gaterman lifters, and installed a set of HD 'B' lifters. The Gaterman have just under 10,000 miles. Last year around 7,500 miles the motor started getting a ticking from the front exhaust lifter when the motor was cold. It would mostly go away when warm. Eventually it would still tick when warm, just not as bad as when cold. There was another noise that I wasn't even aware of until I had put the 'B's in this weekend. I immediately noticed that the motor was almost silent when going down the road. Prior to the lifter change, there was always a mechanical sound at cruise, I assumed it was the roller rockers, guess it wasn't.

I suspect this mechanical noise was the lifter body to anti rotation pin clearances. When I measured the Gaterman to pins I was getting anywhere from 0.010" to 0.011". The 'B's measure 0.005" to 0.006". I used a feeler gauge to check these clearances. As well, both pins have marks in them from the lifter body rotation back and forth. The indents in the pins match the lifter body flats exactly. There was also a wear mark starting on the roller of the front intake lifter, as well there is a matching mark on the front intake cam lobe. Very light, barely noticeable on the cam.

So new 'B' lifters, new standard size anti rotation pins, replaced SE push rods with Smith Bros push rods. Motor no longer has a cold start tick. As I stated above I notice at cruise the motor is silent. When the motor is very warm, heat soaked from several hours of riding, both sets of lifters Gaterman and the 'B's exhibited a little mechanical noise at the cam chest. With the 'B's it's a little less. I attribute this to the clearances all expanded when heat soaked, and I think the Fueling 594 cams have some aggressive lobes. Nothing like a Wood cam or Leineweber, but far from stock, and I think more aggressive than most.

All in all the 'B's are quieter, but then they are new, and the Gaterman had almost 10,000 miles.

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[Ohio HD]

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[Ohio HD]

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[Ohio HD]

I'm also stocked up to replace them if needed, I have several compete sets (5 sets) and have several sets with one or two missing as well.   

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[Admiral Akbar]

So was it the lifter change or the pushrods?   

Max

[Ohio HD]

Max, the cold tapping I'm sure was the lifter(s) as it wasn't there when I installed the motor, and it got a little worse over time. The mechanical noise at cruise that was always there, may have been the push rods, or may have been the excessive clearance between the lifters and anti rotation pins, or both. Either way, it sounds much better now.

[metaliser]

 I know I'll probably get hammered for this but after dealing with noise myself at times and talking to several riders I think some of our issues is the weight of oil we now run and the make up of it as well. I'm trying some straight 50wt VR1 racing oil that has some zinc in it to see what happens. The Syn oils of today get thin as water when heated plus again they have less zinc than before which in turn I'm thinking can cause some of the lifter wear we've seen. I'm not trying to start a oil thread at all but several of the bad lifters have been running Amsoil, suppose to be the best on the market, heck I ran it in my 2010 and my lifters were frosted as well.
If you read HD manual it states that 60 degree and above a straight 50wt oil can be used so why do we run a 20w-50 instead of 50wt ? I'll see how it does as far as sound and I've never had one but may spring for a oil heat gauge to see where the temp runs also.

[No Cents]

 
thanks for posting up the pic's Brian.
It's looks like the lifters were definately rocking back and forth and banging on the pin fairly hard to make those kind of deep marks.
I will be checking for pin to lifter clearance from now on. I didn't realize that there was such a clearance issue with the lifters to the pins...until this thread.
That has to be causing some noise in the valve train.
Did the other 3 Gaterman's look all right...I'm assuming the one you have in your hand was the front exhaust lifter?

[Ohio HD]

No actually the lifter that showed roller wear was the front intake. The other three there was not any wear like this.

I may also order set of 0.002" over size pins for the next time I may be in there. I really think there may have been a relation to the slight mechanical noise I would hear at cruise speeds. Possibly the sound traveled up the push rods?

[No Cents]

what did the Gaterman lifter flats look like that made those marks in the roll pins? I would have thought the pin would have been a harder metal than the lifter body...but apparently not with the marks you showed us on the pins.
The .005 difference in between the clearance on the B's to the Gaterman's is a bunch...almost unacceptable if you think about it.   
Apparently the Gaterman lifter needs a wider body at the flat to take up some of this clearance gap. With that kind of clearance...the lifter has to be moving (twisting/ rocking) back and forth in it's bore against the pin with it's flats ..which in turn is letting the roller not stay truly inline on the cam lobe.
I wonder if Gaterman is aware of this kind of difference in the lifter flat to the pin clearance that you have witnessed Brian?   
It would be interesting if someone called Bill Gaterman and let him know of your findings and see what he has to say.

[FSG]

Brian, what is the diameter of that marked up AR pin? 

The .0005- .0006 difference in between the clearance on the B's to the Gaterman's is a bunch...almost unacceptable if you think about it.