Power Vision Auto Tune Basic

[76shuvlinoff]

Excuse me if this has been already beaten to death, I've only recently started delving into the TC world.

2012 103 TBW Ultra.  I installed Jackpot 2/1/2 Andrews 48s, bigger intake, and Rush touring mufflers. I have a canned map from Fuelmoto. Bike runs pretty darn good, my leg does not burn up and the sh*tty throttle lag is gone. 

I've been reading up on the PV Auto Tune Basic feature and watched the Youtube vid.  To those that have done this do you have any recommendations? Just putt? Ride aggressively?  How has it worked out for you?

Thanks!
Mark

[WI Bob]

Mark,

I try to populate as many cells as possible in a 20 minute AT session. This means all types of driving while in AT mode.

I find high gear freeway to work well to cover the cruise areas. Something like get in high gear, start at 2500 partial throttle and bump the cruise up one click about every 15 seconds. This works well if there are some slight hills.

I have a secondary road I use for break ins because it is full of 20 MPH curves and hills where I accel and decel constantly. This also covers a bunch of cells in the AT mode.

Ripping on it also works to catch those cells with a more open throttle position.

Have fun, it works.

Bob

[FBobPilot]

I have the AT Pro now but with the Basic I believe the AFR is set at 14.6 across the board so not a great AFR for high rpms. Recommend riding somewhat normally varying the rpms but personally I would not go above about 4500 rpms and as always do not lug the engine chasing hard to get cells. After each session I go to my computer and look at the VE chart and notice how much they have changed. Once you get the VEs to a point they are not changing very much(less than about 3%) you are about as good as you are going to get. You still may have to manually play with the AFR table and Decel Enleanment to get rid of decel pop if you have that.

[76shuvlinoff]

thanks guys

[Karl H.]

Autotune Basic sets the AFR to 14,6 and the CLB to 700mV what leads to an AFR of about 14,2. The timing is retarded by 4°. So it should be save for high load and rpm.

Karl

[aswracing]

If at all possible, mount your PV where you can see it. This is one of the huge advantages of the PV, you can actually monitor the process and see which cells you've hit and which you still need to visit:



You can buy a perfectly suitable mount on Amazon for less than ten bucks.

Try to turn as many cells red as you can. They'll turn light green and then orange before they turn red (on the 7th hit by default). The above is pretty extreme, you won't hit that many cells. I did that on the dyno.

The bike will run poorly during autotune, this is normal.

When you shut down the motor, use the run/stop switch so the PV remains powered. Exit the screen shown above and touch "Export Learned Values". That's what creates the new tune. Then disable autotune mode and go load up that new map as normal (Load tune/custom tunes ...). The bike will run better. Repeat as needed/desired.

Narrow band doesn't work too badly. Many people have successfully tuned their bikes with narrow band mode. Wide band works incredibly well however.

We have a wideband kit dedicated to our dyno. When someone brings us a PV equipped bike, we install the wideband kit, do the tuning, and then remove the wideband kit and put the stock sensors back in. Works great. Saves the customer a lot of money too because the process is so easy with a PV that we charge a lot less than we do with other tuners.

[Fat daddy]

If you are in the midst of doing a basic auto tune and need to stop for some reason can you shut the bike down and pick the tune back up where you left off or do you need to start all over?

[76shuvlinoff]

Fat daddy,
good question.

aswracing.
Thanks a ton for the info! I received mounting kits with the PV.

  All,
I appreciate any and all insights. I am at pre-Tenderfoot level on this injection stuff, hell I only discovered CV carbs 3-4 years ago.

I will be kinda laid up for a week or so, I won't be out and about playing with the tuner for a while so I have time to do some reading.


Mark

[Karl H.]

If you are in the midst of doing a basic auto tune and need to stop for some reason can you shut the bike down and pick the tune back up where you left off or do you need to start all over?

When you shut down and start the engine again the autotune process (data sampling) will continue. When you want to end the autotune mode the PV has to be set up accordingly. Otherwise the engine will remain in autotune mode with AFR 14,2 and  4° ignition retard in all cells.

Karl

[aswracing]

If you are in the midst of doing a basic auto tune and need to stop for some reason can you shut the bike down and pick the tune back up where you left off or do you need to start all over?

Kinda.

If you shut off the motor with the run/stop switch, nothing is lost. The PV remains powered up and on the logging screen. You can then exit the logging screen and export your learned tune. Or you can start it back up and continue logging, however, you'll go through the warm-up enrichment delay until it actually starts logging. You can turn that delay off by the way, using WinPV. There's a table for it and you just fill it with zeroes.

However, if you shut off the key, you might lose some of your logging data. The WinPV periodically autosaves it's logged data. While you're logging, you'll occasionally see the logging screen go dim for a second and it says "Saving ..." on it. So you can turn the key back on and go back into the logging screen and start the bike and keep right on logging, however, anything you've logged between the last autosave and turning off the key will be lost. Or in other words, cycling the power forces you to back up a bit in your logging process.

I'm not aware of how to force an autosave. When I want to shut the key off without losing anything, I do an "Export Learned" before I turn off the key, and then do a whole new autotune session next time, using the autotune result as my start point. Maybe there's an easier way though.

[Karl H.]

The book says:

The values learned during the AutoTune process will automatically save:
• Every five minutes
• When the vehicle comes to a stop during a drive cycle

Whenever you stop the engine using the run switch and keep the ignition switch on for a while the data is saved.

Karl

[UltraNutZ]

the data is saved to the device, not the ECM

[WideWildGlide]

I know Auto tune pro adds but dose it subtract aswell?

[rbabos]

Just remember, autotune basic is just that, BASIC. There's quite a difference between where it was tuned in defaults and actual or desired clb/lambda values. For me, log tuner will refine the tune to a more custom fashion, since all I have to use are the onboard narrow bands.
Ron

[aswracing]

We've found it does a pretty reasonable job for people through the meat of the riding range. Bottom line, someone can buy a performance package from us, we send them a starting point Powervision tune, and they can dial it in pretty decently using Autotune Basic, without ever visiting a dyno. And the PV makes it a dirt simple process, that's it's big advantage over the other flash tuners. We have lots and lots of customers who've done it successfully.

The wideband kit works even better, though, no argument there, and it works well over the entire range of rpm and load. It's a bit pricey, but then again, so is a full dyno tune.

[UltraNutZ]

aswracing...  have you guys seen any issues or had any reported to you with the PV and it interfering with handlebar controls but ONLY in gauge mode?  I suspect inferior cable design but unproven at this point.  I've contacted Scott @ Dynojet but no response yet.  It also only happens with aftermarket handlebar control modules such as hawg-wired, biketronics, PAC, etc..  moving cables around resolves nothing. Again, ONLY happens in gauge mode. 

[aswracing]

No, never had a customer report that to me at all.

[76shuvlinoff]

Life being life I am just now getting back to this.

Attached is a crappy pic of the screen after my 1st auto tune basic run. Yeah I cut about 1/2 of the last column off.    This was approx a 45 minute run through the country with hills and some twists with 15-20 miles of highway ducking holiday traffic and state patrols.

Besides better picture taking what are my goals here?

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[Snuff™]

Mark, thanks for updating this thread.  Purchased my PV the other week, haven't installed it yet until I change the pipes and mufflers.  The past couple of days  have been too good to work on a bike.

[Snuff™]

Besides better picture taking what are my goals here?

I think it's like a video game.  Get all the squares red and you win!

[76shuvlinoff]

Yeah I went back and re-read the responses already posted (I had a bit too much downtime from this bike.) I will take those approaches suggested, just glad I bookmarked the thread.

[aswracing]

Looks good to me.

The cells you're mainly missing, in the upper right and lower left, are really hard to hit on a street ride. Almost gotta have a dyno that can load it down for those upper right ones. On the lower left, you gotta build a lot of rpm and then back the throttle down just the right amount.

But the cells you're hitting are the meat of the riding range and the bike should run much better through there once you export the learned values, exit autotune, and load up the resultant map in the standard manner, which of course will put your timing and fueling back to where they should be.

[76shuvlinoff]

  thanks
Too much going on today so I took a short spin but didn't get much time after I downloaded that "tune" to get the feel of it. I know my 900lb gorilla isn't going to rear up and paw at the sky.   

Mark

[76shuvlinoff]

After this morning's run I just gotta add I'm liking it. The canned map I got with the PV was lots gooder than stock but this is better. I think the 900 lb gorilla even sounds better. Too bad I have a different set of baffles already on order.

Now if I can keep my fingers out of it we should be all good.   

Thanks for all the help. 

  Mark

[joe_lyons]

If you want you can do a comparison  of the map before and the current one you are using and then look at the delta between them and smooth out the areas you didn't hit by following the trends and extending them up and down.  If you want I can take some snap shots if you wish.

[76shuvlinoff]

This is all brand new stuff to me Joe, I'll take any help I can get.

Mark

[aswracing]

The Powervision makes it easy. That's it's big strength, how simple it is. WinPV is a really well done program, too, in my opinion. Very easy to use.

[joe_lyons]

load your current map from the PV to the computer, name it something to know its the latest.  Then click on the load compare button and load the map that you used before you auto tuned and you will see where the differences are by the yellow triangle by the tree items.  click on VE F or R and then click on delta and this will show you whats different.  then just follow the trends where the 0s are at.
Sorry i did this in a hurry this morning.


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[joe_lyons]

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[joe_lyons]

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[joe_lyons]

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[DYankee]

Excuse me if this has been already beaten to death, I've only recently started delving into the TC world.

2012 103 TBW Ultra.  I installed Jackpot 2/1/2 Andrews 48s, bigger intake, and Rush touring mufflers. I have a canned map from Fuelmoto. Bike runs pretty darn good, my leg does not burn up and the sh*tty throttle lag is gone. 

I've been reading up on the PV Auto Tune Basic feature and watched the Youtube vid.  To those that have done this do you have any recommendations? Just putt? Ride aggressively?  How has it worked out for you?

Thanks!
Mark

I just replaced my cam and got a canned map. I've been spending time autotuning today and I stumbled on a pretty good method for getting all of the cells tuned.

The object is to log as many RPM' ranges as possible and under as many load conditions as possible.

I think it's fine to accelerate as quickly as possible up to about 4500 RPM a few times. In first gear I like to accelerate slowly to above 4K. That gives a good light load in all RPM's up to 4K. Shift to about 3rd gear and accelerate slowly from 2K to 4k or 4.5K to fill in a lot of the mid-load cells. Some good old twisty/hillly roads are very good for this too.

If you don't have any good hills in the area, the best way to get the high load cells is to shift a lot quicker than you normally do. Like hitting 6th gear at 50MPH and accelerating fairly aggressively from there. I don't recommend doing this on a routine basis, but it's a great way to artificially create high loads.

Hope this helps someone

[Admiral Akbar]

So auto tuning on a power vision is still a manual process?  Even with broad band sensors?

Max

[UltraNutZ]

So auto tuning on a power vision is still a manual process?  Even with broad band sensors?

Max

I don't see how it can be anything other than a manual process.

[FLTRI]

So auto tuning on a power vision is still a manual process?  Even with broad band sensors?

Max

Basically the same as Tmax as far as automatic tuning.
Once the software is learned, properly set up (targets, etc) and the O2 sensors are verified to work (good sample quality) in all rpm/load/TP, then the bike ran and learned offsets applied as many times as necessary...it's automatic from there.
Bob

[Durwood]

So auto tuning on a power vision is still a manual process?  Even with broad band sensors?

Max

Power Vision with AT module and wide bands is like tuning with twin scan and wego, ya just don't have to carry a PC, you make VE calibration runs and apply the offsets, nothing auto about it other than it automatically sets the afr and turns off unwanted tables during the tuning process.

AT Basic uses the stock sensors for sampling, it works to a point, but not very good IME.

[Admiral Akbar]

So while running, the Power vision corrects the fuel and remembers those offsets until you re-apply them to the VEs?

Bob is saying that it runs active closed loop.. Once you are close you are really done as the power vision will continue to keep adjusting afr based on the sensors..

Max

[UltraNutZ]

Sorry, ain't no different than any other quality flash tuners on the market IMO other than gives a built in display.  I do that with my TTS on the fly with a handlebar mounted Surface Pro 3.  And I can see the display on my Surface.

[Durwood]

So while running, the Power vision corrects the fuel and remembers those offsets until you re-apply them to the VEs?

Max

Yes

[hrdtail78]

So while running, the Power vision corrects the fuel and remembers those offsets until you re-apply them to the VEs?

Max

Yes

It doesn't correct along the way.  It logs the data, a program then does the math, and then you can apply it to the VE's.  Like all the others.  DynoJet just named it Auto Tune kind of like Smart Tune.  No discription in the name.

[UltraNutZ]

So while running, the Power vision corrects the fuel and remembers those offsets until you re-apply them to the VEs?

Max

Yes

It doesn't correct along the way.  It logs the data, a program then does the math, and then you can apply it to the VE's.  Like all the others.  DynoJet just named it Auto Tune kind of like Smart Tune.  No discription in the name.

exactly!   

[Admiral Akbar]

So while running, the Power vision corrects the fuel and remembers those offsets until you re-apply them to the VEs?

Max

Yes

It doesn't correct along the way.  It logs the data, a program then does the math, and then you can apply it to the VE's.  Like all the others.  DynoJet just named it Auto Tune kind of like Smart Tune.  No discription in the name.

So it's not active closed loop like Tmax..

Max

[joe_lyons]

Basic tune uses the short term integrators and logs the changes to affect the change in the ve table.  Pro tune logs the afr actual and makes decisions on what to change the ve table vs what is demanded.
Example of pro tune is the commanded air/fuel ratio is 13 and the actual air fuel ratio recorded is 13.6 so the power of vision has a rough idea of adding 6 percent in that column to get to 13 AFR in that column that is demanded
Does this help explain it all or make it worse?

[Admiral Akbar]

Basic tune uses the short term integrators and logs the changes to affect the change in the ve table.  Pro tune logs the afr actual and makes decisions on what to change the ve table vs what is demanded.
Example of pro tune is the commanded air/fuel ratio is 13 and the actual air fuel ratio recorded is 13.6 so the power of vision has a rough idea of adding 6 percent in that column to get to 13 AFR in that column that is demanded
Does this help explain it all or make it worse?

Well for me... Not sure..  In both cases, is a post process required to update the maps?   In other words do either update the internal maps in real time to get the correct AFR..   Lets say as in your example for pro tune, does pro tune find that the desired AFR is to be 13 to 1 for a specific part of the table but samples 13.6 to 1 and adjusts the injector PW (or may just VE?) to achieve 13 to 1 for the next time that particular part of the table is used?  In other words does it adjust fueling in real time? (called closed loop)

Max

[joe_lyons]

Basic tune= live changes and logs
Pro tune= no live changes and logs

Basic tune= sets afr to 14.2ish-14.3ish Dependant on cal
Pro tune= sets afr to 13.0 all cals

Basic tune= retards timing 4°
Pro tune=  does not

Basic tune uses the stock narrow band sensors with in their usable range to make live changes and records what the integrators do and apply that to the ve table.

Pro tune does not use the stock sensors nor the integrators because the afr is set to 13 which is out of the closed loop range of the stock sensors. So there are no live changes with pro tune only logging and correcting the differences of commanded and actual afr after the session is done.
There is a post action needed with either setup kind of like auto-map with thundermax.
The auto tune part is that It sets the parameters for logging.

[Admiral Akbar]

Basic tune= live changes and logs
Pro tune= no live changes and logs

Basic tune= sets afr to 14.2ish-14.3ish Dependant on cal
Pro tune= sets afr to 13.0 all cals

Basic tune= retards timing 4°
Pro tune=  does not

Basic tune uses the stock narrow band sensors with in their usable range to make live changes and records what the integrators do and apply that to the ve table.

Pro tune does not use the stock sensors nor the integrators because the afr is set to 13 which is out of the closed loop range of the stock sensors. So there are no live changes with pro tune only logging and correcting the differences of commanded and actual afr after the session is done.
There is a post action needed with either setup kind of like auto-map with thundermax.
The auto tune part is that It sets the parameters for logging.

Thanks Joe,

I think I understand..  Basic tune  is like the stock EFI.. Operates open loop except where the narrow band sensors are set to function then it runs closed loop..  The Pro tune is nothing but a data collector that allows the tuner (person) to collect data then only feed back the changes into the map.  It seem like this system is only open loop.

One thing to note is that thundermax really doesn't need auto-map.. Thunder max is full time closed loop system. Gen II systems used to have a limit that the Tmax could learn. The Gen III comes set up without limits..  The only value of doing an autotune is that if power is disconnected from the ECM, it falls back to the base map as the learned offsets are lost.. As long as power stays on to the ecm (it has power even when off), the Tmax will use it's learned offsets..  The whole purpose of the base maps is to only get close injector PWs close and the timing set.. If they are too far off the system can wander off into the weeds fer sure but once close, no auto-mapping is needed...

Max

[Durwood]

So while running, the Power vision corrects the fuel and remembers those offsets until you re-apply them to the VEs?

Max

Yes

I should have completed this with "while it AT mode", I misunderstood your question, my bad.

[Admiral Akbar]

So while running, the Power vision corrects the fuel and remembers those offsets until you re-apply them to the VEs?

Max

Yes

I should have completed this with "while it AT mode", I misunderstood your question, my bad.

No problem.. I find that the many here really don't understand the meaning of term  "closed loop"..  The term  is commonly used for system control where output information is fed back to correct and error and done in an automated fashion.. Tmax is an active closed loop system as is the stock and basic tuners when they operate in the range of the sensors.. Closed loop is important as it allows better control of the AFR when running real leans for smog.. Still with a broad band sensor an EFI system can actively set AFR anywhere to what ever is desired..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_theory

The first paragraph and picture are enough to get the idea..

In the case of a closed loop FI system the reference, the adder / subtractor and controller are in the EFI.. The system is the fuel pump injectors motor and exhaust pipe etc.. The sensor is the o2sensor.

Max
morethanyouwantedtoknow

[hrdtail78]

Really shows the limitation of the tuning device, and points out the problems with go with the product the tuner lines best.   Let's peel back the curtain.  If it happens today or 4 years from now. It will happen.

[Durwood]

Max, Once you are finished calibrating the VE's, apply the changes to the map you are tuning, then flash the new map into the bike, then remove the wide bands. Just like the rest of the flash tuning devices

If you desire to run CL in certain areas, the lambda/afr table can be adjusted to activate the stock sensors.

[UltraNutZ]

So "auto-tune" becomes a manual process then.. Interesting sales gimmick.

[DYankee]

The Power Vision is not a continuous closed loop, but it's a lot cheaper than the T Max. It is a pretty effective way to get a decent tune. Start with a canned map, autotune and you've got a personalized map that's pretty close.

The other option is doing a dynotune. Once you've run a dynotune, there is no closed loop either. The product of the basic or wideband autotune is a individualized map similar to that of a dynotune. Obviously, it's not as good as a good dynotune, maybe better than a bad one.
The wideband autotune is probably better than the basic autotune. A dynotune should be better than a good autotune.

It all depends how much you want to put into it and how much you want out of it.

[Admiral Akbar]

It all depends how much you want to put into it and how much you want out of it.

Plus how mild or wild you want to do and how often you plan on changing things..

Max

[misfitJason]

Just out of curiosity because I havent s en it answered or understand....... Why would I want to stay in closed loop at any point on my map instead of setting a preferred afr in that area.  What is the benefit

[Admiral Akbar]

Just out of curiosity because I havent s en it answered or understand....... Why would I want to stay in closed loop at any point on my map instead of setting a preferred afr in that area.  What is the benefit

Wouldn't it be better to set things up to measure the AFR and set the AFR so that it is correct buy sampling the exhaust than just pulling a number out of a table and assuming that it was set correctly?

Max

[misfitJason]

I agree Max. Correct me if I am understanding wrong here. If I se the map afr table at 14.6 in some areas where I would want it to run closed loop it would attempt to reach a somewhat lean but good running condition afr but not necessarily always 14.6:1 in those areas

[hrdtail78]

Basic answer to why closed loop is.  So the ECM can have tighter control over the fuel being delivered at that time for the conditions of that day.  Weather is not the same from day to day and fuel isn't the same from station to station.  If targeting 14:1 and the fuel of the day makes actual AFR 14.3.  I's say the safe zone was built in with targeting 14:1.  Same scenario of CLB target of 14.4.  Doesn't matter the fuel.  The ECM is going to try and maintain 14.4.

A good understanding of what it takes to have an engine run efficiently in different conditions helps a lot when deciding what, where and if closed loop should be ran.  It has it's limitations.  As does open loop, wide band tuning.

[Admiral Akbar]

I agree Max. Correct me if I am understanding wrong here. If I se the map afr table at 14.6 in some areas where I would want it to run closed loop it would attempt to reach a somewhat lean but good running condition afr but not necessarily always 14.6:1 in those areas

If the system is operating properly and running closed loop, it will adjust the afr best it can to achieve 14.6 afr from the sensor.. As I understand some of the tuners, the desired AFR has to be set to some afr value to run closed loop.. Is it 14.6?  Don't know.. Tmax, everything is closed loop.. Set it to 13.2. It will adjust to 13.2 in real time..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sCO4OG6BiM

Max 

[joe_lyons]

Some cool new features with power vision pro tune and target tune coming in the future

[hrdtail78]

Will it allow you to pick a target for WB tuning?

[joe_lyons]

Will it allow you to pick a target for WB tuning?

Maybe..[emoji54]

[sandrooney]

So if you tune with the AT Pro remove it and go back to the CL and NB sensors it will revert back to 14.6 ? I am about done with the WB tuning and was planning on removing it and going back to CL and the stock sensors.

[DYankee]

The map you load into the ECM can have the target AFR of 14.6 if you like.

If you want it to be something other than 14.6 and you have developed a tune for it using the WB sensors, you load that tune and the ECM should run at that AFR. It will not be closed loop unless the target AFR is 14.6.

[sandrooney]

So when I disconnect the WB AT I might as well take out the NB's as well cause they will be disabled I thought it would automatically go back to NB and CL operation. I must have misunderstood what Jamie at Fuel Moto had said.

Thanks

[Durwood]

The map you load into the ECM can have the target AFR of 14.6 if you like.

If you want it to be something other than 14.6 and you have developed a tune for it using the WB sensors, you load that tune and the ECM should run at that AFR. It will not be closed loop unless the target AFR is 14.6.

This may be true with other tuners, but not with Power vision you can make your closed loop pretty much where ever you want by changing the CL parameters on your cal in Winpv.

[DYankee]

The narrow band sensors are not capable of accurately determining AFR very far from stoichiometeric (14.6). I don't know how narrow the narrow band sensors are, but what good is running in closed loop if the sensors aren't accurate?

[2006FXDCI]

Kevin , did your bike come from the factory with NB O2 sensors ? If it did they need to be left in the pipe . After you remove the WB O2 sensors your map wont change , it will still operate in open loop and closed loop ( if you have any cells in your AFR table set to 14.6 ) . As an example my 06 dyna came with NB sensors . It is tuned completely open loop with TTS , my NB sensors are still in the exhaust . I would think it will throw a code or run poorly if you remove them .

[Durwood]

The narrow band sensors are not capable of accurately determining AFR very far from stoichiometeric (14.6). I don't know how narrow the narrow band sensors are, but what good is running in closed loop if the sensors aren't accurate?

What I've learned is that NB sensors work within a range/window, you set the parameters you desire, within reason.

They will work like this, I tested this with my PV last summer after I tuned to E85, I left the wide bands in, for monitoring only and set the CL window between 13.8 and 14.2, I watched this in real time, the NB were doing their job holding the target afr within the range I set., target afr was 14.0.

If you have a Power vision, try it, it does work. Just have to make sure the NB's are properly placed in the pipe.

Daren

[hrdtail78]

It is not a good idea to map VE's with one sensor, and then let the ECM control with another sensor for input.

[sandrooney]

They are the stock NB's that came on the bike. I have Jackpot headers that allow both WB and NB to be installed at the same time.. They are in the same location as on the stock pipes. 2010 Tri Glide 103".
Thanks

[2006FXDCI]

If u did auto tune basic using the stock NB sensors it should dial in any CL cells in your AFR table . Then when you did auto tune pro with the WB it should of dialed in any OL cells . Removing the WB sensors wont change anything as long as you have flashed your most current tune to the ECM . Leaving the stock NB sensors in will allow them to monitor the areas of your map that were tuned basic . Leave the factory NB sensors in

[aswracing]

This may be true with other tuners, but not with Power vision you can make your closed loop pretty much where ever you want by changing the CL parameters on your cal in Winpv.

Uh, no.

A 14.6 in the table tells the Delphi ECM to run closed loop. The Powervision doesn't change that.

When you change the closed loop bias, you skew the sensor's response. In other words, it may now start signalling Stoic when it's actually at some other place. But you still need a 14.6 in the table cell to run closed loop. That's how the Delphi ECM works.

[sandrooney]

So I should tune basic first then pro or the other way around or does it matter which is first ??

Thanks

[joe_lyons]

This may be true with other tuners, but not with Power vision you can make your closed loop pretty much where ever you want by changing the CL parameters on your cal in Winpv.

Uh, no.

A 14.6 in the table tells the Delphi ECM to run closed loop. The Powervision doesn't change that.

When you change the closed loop bias, you skew the sensor's response. In other words, it may now start signalling Stoic when it's actually at some other place. But you still need a 14.6 in the table cell to run closed loop. That's how the Delphi ECM works.

The later lambda cals and cals for HDLAN bikes do not have bias tables like the earlier cals.  With PV you CAN change the range that the closed loop will operate but I have found that the 14.1-15.2 range is its more accurate range.

[2006FXDCI]

I would do basic first then pro but i dont think it matters . Joe would be able to andwer that better than me . Im just learning all this myself Kevin

[Karl H.]

The later lambda cals and cals for HDLAN bikes do not have bias tables like the earlier cals.  With PV you CAN change the range that the closed loop will operate but I have found that the 14.1-15.2 range is its more accurate range.

Just for visualisation a 2013 stock map (Softail TC103 HDI) where ovals indicate closed loop operation (14.3-14.7):

[hrdtail78]

Doesn't really skew the sensors response, but more it changes the voltage that the ECM switches from a lean mode to a rich mode.  With AFR cals this is done in another table.  Closed loop bias tables.  In the lambda cals it is done directly in the AFR tables, but the direct lambda value that is put into there is still changed into a voltage for the ECM's sake.

IMO it is important to map the VE tables were CL is going to used with stock sensors.  Mapping with WB and then NB or whatever order is going to produce different VE's.  A lot of factors can cause this.  Simple sensor placement to how the sensors themselves are different in their accuracy.  It's no secrete that the NB's are better in the 14.3-14.6 range.  Mapping with something else and then turning on the CL feature is only going to have the NB's pull it there anyway.  The ECM is going to win the fight.

The vision only lets you target 13 across the board for WB tuning.  Changing the target AFR 1.5 after mapped and hoping the math is going to work out isn't the best tuning strategy.  It is easy enough to test and compare the tables.  Or map with WB and turn on CL and watch integrators.

[Mirrmu]

Hi,

I get from last post hardtail78 that you may be best to map with stock sensors NB say upto 3000rpm, cruising area, get VE data, change your map

Then use WB results for 3500rpm up, get VE data, change your map

Make sure AFR table relates to what you have tuned above with NB and WB
Thanks

[hrdtail78]

Or you could map as much area as you can with both sensors and cut and paste to achieve your final VE tables.

Collecting open and closed loop data at the same time..... Different post.

[Durwood]

This may be true with other tuners, but not with Power vision you can make your closed loop pretty much where ever you want by changing the CL parameters on your cal in Winpv.

Uh, no.

A 14.6 in the table tells the Delphi ECM to run closed loop. The Powervision doesn't change that.

When you change the closed loop bias, you skew the sensor's response. In other words, it may now start signalling Stoic when it's actually at some other place. But you still need a 14.6 in the table cell to run closed loop. That's how the Delphi ECM works.

The later lambda cals and cals for HDLAN bikes do not have bias tables like the earlier cals.  With PV you CAN change the range that the closed loop will operate but I have found that the 14.1-15.2 range is its more accurate range.

This is what I found as well, guys, you just have to try it , set up one of the 4 window screens with AFR1, AFR2, CLI1 CLI2, from this screen you will be able to see it in action.

Pick an afr range of .6, Target the middle of that range in the area of the afr table you want in closed loop.

For accuracy sake I went back and looked at my E85 cal and the range I used was actually 13.7-14.3, fwiw.

Just stating what I discovered while testing.

Merry Christmas Everyone!!

Daren

[rodrocket]

Some cool new features with power vision pro tune and target tune coming in the future

Care to elaborate a little further

will it be a new unit or an update to the current one

regards
Rod

[joe_lyons]

I will know much more at the vtwin expo when they talk more about it. 

[sandrooney]

Hope it doesn't matter which I tune with first. I have already pretty much got it tuned with the WB . I guess I could start over.
Thanks Josh

[Durwood]

Hope it doesn't matter which I tune with first. I have already pretty much got it tuned with the WB . I guess I could start over.
Thanks Josh

No Josh, you are on the right track.

[Durwood]

Winpv>contents>pro autotune

[sandrooney]

Thanks Durwood. So I can tune with basic after pro ?

[Durwood]

Thanks Durwood. So I can tune with basic after pro ?

If you have pro, you don't need to use basic, once you are finished tuning, simply remove the WB sensors and the AT module for future use.

[joe_lyons]

Different strokes for different folks.

[hrdtail78]

Hope it doesn't matter which I tune with first. I have already pretty much got it tuned with the WB . I guess I could start over.
Thanks Josh

Why start over?  You can auto tune a small section.  It isn't all or nothing.

[2006FXDCI]

Thats what i was thinking . Couldnt you remove the WB and use auto tune basic to dial in only the CL cells with the stock NB that will be used all the time . Thats how I did my friends 09 road king .

[Durwood]

Thats what i was thinking . Couldnt you remove the WB and use auto tune basic to dial in only the CL cells with the stock NB that will be used all the time . Thats how I did my friends 09 road king .

Josh, you can do that and leave the widebands in if you want, and just choose basic for your tuning option, then back up the NB data with the widebands once you complete the area you wish to sample.

Then remove the module and wb sensors.

As Joe said different strokes, there's more than one way to get there, the main thing in the end is to have a good running bike and happy customer.

Daren

[2006FXDCI]

 

[hrdtail78]

You can set up the cal to collect closed loop data and generate a new cal.  This is not with auto tune.  This is more so you can target a specific CLB or lambda value and the timing you want.  I am sure auto tune or smart tune will get you close enough.  Why not a final customized auto tune run for those that do choose to run in CL?   I really believe this helps the transitions from CL to OL as well.  Back to one cell effects the other strategy of tuning.

Not really concerned with right or wrong.   My way is flexible.  It's based on my 7-8 years doing it and keeping a good net work with people that do it daily as well.

[sandrooney]

Thanks, Looks like there are options.  This PV is really cool. I am doing the same mods to my wife's bike so I will purchase the license and flash my tune to hers. Should start out pretty close.
Thanks again,
Kevin