Power Vision Auto Tune Basic

[76shuvlinoff]

This is all brand new stuff to me Joe, I'll take any help I can get.

Mark

[aswracing]

The Powervision makes it easy. That's it's big strength, how simple it is. WinPV is a really well done program, too, in my opinion. Very easy to use.

[joe_lyons]

load your current map from the PV to the computer, name it something to know its the latest.  Then click on the load compare button and load the map that you used before you auto tuned and you will see where the differences are by the yellow triangle by the tree items.  click on VE F or R and then click on delta and this will show you whats different.  then just follow the trends where the 0s are at.
Sorry i did this in a hurry this morning.


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[joe_lyons]

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[joe_lyons]

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[joe_lyons]

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[DYankee]

Excuse me if this has been already beaten to death, I've only recently started delving into the TC world.

2012 103 TBW Ultra.  I installed Jackpot 2/1/2 Andrews 48s, bigger intake, and Rush touring mufflers. I have a canned map from Fuelmoto. Bike runs pretty darn good, my leg does not burn up and the sh*tty throttle lag is gone. 

I've been reading up on the PV Auto Tune Basic feature and watched the Youtube vid.  To those that have done this do you have any recommendations? Just putt? Ride aggressively?  How has it worked out for you?

Thanks!
Mark

I just replaced my cam and got a canned map. I've been spending time autotuning today and I stumbled on a pretty good method for getting all of the cells tuned.

The object is to log as many RPM' ranges as possible and under as many load conditions as possible.

I think it's fine to accelerate as quickly as possible up to about 4500 RPM a few times. In first gear I like to accelerate slowly to above 4K. That gives a good light load in all RPM's up to 4K. Shift to about 3rd gear and accelerate slowly from 2K to 4k or 4.5K to fill in a lot of the mid-load cells. Some good old twisty/hillly roads are very good for this too.

If you don't have any good hills in the area, the best way to get the high load cells is to shift a lot quicker than you normally do. Like hitting 6th gear at 50MPH and accelerating fairly aggressively from there. I don't recommend doing this on a routine basis, but it's a great way to artificially create high loads.

Hope this helps someone

[Admiral Akbar]

So auto tuning on a power vision is still a manual process?  Even with broad band sensors?

Max

[UltraNutZ]

So auto tuning on a power vision is still a manual process?  Even with broad band sensors?

Max

I don't see how it can be anything other than a manual process.

[FLTRI]

So auto tuning on a power vision is still a manual process?  Even with broad band sensors?

Max

Basically the same as Tmax as far as automatic tuning.
Once the software is learned, properly set up (targets, etc) and the O2 sensors are verified to work (good sample quality) in all rpm/load/TP, then the bike ran and learned offsets applied as many times as necessary...it's automatic from there.
Bob

[Durwood]

So auto tuning on a power vision is still a manual process?  Even with broad band sensors?

Max

Power Vision with AT module and wide bands is like tuning with twin scan and wego, ya just don't have to carry a PC, you make VE calibration runs and apply the offsets, nothing auto about it other than it automatically sets the afr and turns off unwanted tables during the tuning process.

AT Basic uses the stock sensors for sampling, it works to a point, but not very good IME.

[Admiral Akbar]

So while running, the Power vision corrects the fuel and remembers those offsets until you re-apply them to the VEs?

Bob is saying that it runs active closed loop.. Once you are close you are really done as the power vision will continue to keep adjusting afr based on the sensors..

Max

[UltraNutZ]

Sorry, ain't no different than any other quality flash tuners on the market IMO other than gives a built in display.  I do that with my TTS on the fly with a handlebar mounted Surface Pro 3.  And I can see the display on my Surface.

[Durwood]

So while running, the Power vision corrects the fuel and remembers those offsets until you re-apply them to the VEs?

Max

Yes

[hrdtail78]

So while running, the Power vision corrects the fuel and remembers those offsets until you re-apply them to the VEs?

Max

Yes

It doesn't correct along the way.  It logs the data, a program then does the math, and then you can apply it to the VE's.  Like all the others.  DynoJet just named it Auto Tune kind of like Smart Tune.  No discription in the name.

[UltraNutZ]

So while running, the Power vision corrects the fuel and remembers those offsets until you re-apply them to the VEs?

Max

Yes

It doesn't correct along the way.  It logs the data, a program then does the math, and then you can apply it to the VE's.  Like all the others.  DynoJet just named it Auto Tune kind of like Smart Tune.  No discription in the name.

exactly!   

[Admiral Akbar]

So while running, the Power vision corrects the fuel and remembers those offsets until you re-apply them to the VEs?

Max

Yes

It doesn't correct along the way.  It logs the data, a program then does the math, and then you can apply it to the VE's.  Like all the others.  DynoJet just named it Auto Tune kind of like Smart Tune.  No discription in the name.

So it's not active closed loop like Tmax..

Max

[joe_lyons]

Basic tune uses the short term integrators and logs the changes to affect the change in the ve table.  Pro tune logs the afr actual and makes decisions on what to change the ve table vs what is demanded.
Example of pro tune is the commanded air/fuel ratio is 13 and the actual air fuel ratio recorded is 13.6 so the power of vision has a rough idea of adding 6 percent in that column to get to 13 AFR in that column that is demanded
Does this help explain it all or make it worse?

[Admiral Akbar]

Basic tune uses the short term integrators and logs the changes to affect the change in the ve table.  Pro tune logs the afr actual and makes decisions on what to change the ve table vs what is demanded.
Example of pro tune is the commanded air/fuel ratio is 13 and the actual air fuel ratio recorded is 13.6 so the power of vision has a rough idea of adding 6 percent in that column to get to 13 AFR in that column that is demanded
Does this help explain it all or make it worse?

Well for me... Not sure..  In both cases, is a post process required to update the maps?   In other words do either update the internal maps in real time to get the correct AFR..   Lets say as in your example for pro tune, does pro tune find that the desired AFR is to be 13 to 1 for a specific part of the table but samples 13.6 to 1 and adjusts the injector PW (or may just VE?) to achieve 13 to 1 for the next time that particular part of the table is used?  In other words does it adjust fueling in real time? (called closed loop)

Max

[joe_lyons]

Basic tune= live changes and logs
Pro tune= no live changes and logs

Basic tune= sets afr to 14.2ish-14.3ish Dependant on cal
Pro tune= sets afr to 13.0 all cals

Basic tune= retards timing 4°
Pro tune=  does not

Basic tune uses the stock narrow band sensors with in their usable range to make live changes and records what the integrators do and apply that to the ve table.

Pro tune does not use the stock sensors nor the integrators because the afr is set to 13 which is out of the closed loop range of the stock sensors. So there are no live changes with pro tune only logging and correcting the differences of commanded and actual afr after the session is done.
There is a post action needed with either setup kind of like auto-map with thundermax.
The auto tune part is that It sets the parameters for logging.

[Admiral Akbar]

Basic tune= live changes and logs
Pro tune= no live changes and logs

Basic tune= sets afr to 14.2ish-14.3ish Dependant on cal
Pro tune= sets afr to 13.0 all cals

Basic tune= retards timing 4°
Pro tune=  does not

Basic tune uses the stock narrow band sensors with in their usable range to make live changes and records what the integrators do and apply that to the ve table.

Pro tune does not use the stock sensors nor the integrators because the afr is set to 13 which is out of the closed loop range of the stock sensors. So there are no live changes with pro tune only logging and correcting the differences of commanded and actual afr after the session is done.
There is a post action needed with either setup kind of like auto-map with thundermax.
The auto tune part is that It sets the parameters for logging.

Thanks Joe,

I think I understand..  Basic tune  is like the stock EFI.. Operates open loop except where the narrow band sensors are set to function then it runs closed loop..  The Pro tune is nothing but a data collector that allows the tuner (person) to collect data then only feed back the changes into the map.  It seem like this system is only open loop.

One thing to note is that thundermax really doesn't need auto-map.. Thunder max is full time closed loop system. Gen II systems used to have a limit that the Tmax could learn. The Gen III comes set up without limits..  The only value of doing an autotune is that if power is disconnected from the ECM, it falls back to the base map as the learned offsets are lost.. As long as power stays on to the ecm (it has power even when off), the Tmax will use it's learned offsets..  The whole purpose of the base maps is to only get close injector PWs close and the timing set.. If they are too far off the system can wander off into the weeds fer sure but once close, no auto-mapping is needed...

Max

[Durwood]

So while running, the Power vision corrects the fuel and remembers those offsets until you re-apply them to the VEs?

Max

Yes

I should have completed this with "while it AT mode", I misunderstood your question, my bad.

[Admiral Akbar]

So while running, the Power vision corrects the fuel and remembers those offsets until you re-apply them to the VEs?

Max

Yes

I should have completed this with "while it AT mode", I misunderstood your question, my bad.

No problem.. I find that the many here really don't understand the meaning of term  "closed loop"..  The term  is commonly used for system control where output information is fed back to correct and error and done in an automated fashion.. Tmax is an active closed loop system as is the stock and basic tuners when they operate in the range of the sensors.. Closed loop is important as it allows better control of the AFR when running real leans for smog.. Still with a broad band sensor an EFI system can actively set AFR anywhere to what ever is desired..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_theory

The first paragraph and picture are enough to get the idea..

In the case of a closed loop FI system the reference, the adder / subtractor and controller are in the EFI.. The system is the fuel pump injectors motor and exhaust pipe etc.. The sensor is the o2sensor.

Max
morethanyouwantedtoknow

[hrdtail78]

Really shows the limitation of the tuning device, and points out the problems with go with the product the tuner lines best.   Let's peel back the curtain.  If it happens today or 4 years from now. It will happen.

[Durwood]

Max, Once you are finished calibrating the VE's, apply the changes to the map you are tuning, then flash the new map into the bike, then remove the wide bands. Just like the rest of the flash tuning devices

If you desire to run CL in certain areas, the lambda/afr table can be adjusted to activate the stock sensors.