Time To To Tear Down

[WhipLash96]

It has come to be the time that I tear down the top end of my 96 Sportster. I am getting a nasty noise from the top end. at first I thought that it was pining but I just don't think so anymore as the noise is getting to be more frequent and louder. It is starting to sound like there is some trouble in the valve train, like a valve is floating or the guides are starting to go.

I have not personally torn the top end on this bike apart myself, is there any major road blocks in front of me that I should know about? I have a factory SM and proper tools I think. Looking for thoughts on this?

[andyxlh]

1. Make sure that you let of the pressure on the head bolt studs gradually, 1/8 turn per stud at a time, to avoid warping/ distorting the heads/barrels and studs.
2. Make sure you put a rag down the bores as you start to lift the barrels before you get them over the rings - you don't want a bit of muck like a broken ring falling into the bottom end, and protect the studs with cut pieces of garden hose.
3. When you have the circlips out of the pistons, use a long bolt and a couple of different sized washers to press the pins out of the rods if they are sticky. Don't be tempted to knock them out.
4. Be careful installing the 'o' rings for the pushrod tubes - it is easy to not have them seated correctly and then you end up with a horrid leak and the devil's job to get them off again.
5. When you put it back together, swap the rocker pins inlet for exhaust, they wear on one side so you should eliminate some of that wear by swapping them over so that they wear on the 'new' side. Of course you can only do this once!

Before you tear it down, run the bike and listen through a screwdriver at the lifters and valve train. You might have a lifter starting to fail. this is not uncommon, and when it happened to me the referred noise sounded like it was coming from a head. The screwdriver trick helped me isolate it to the lifter. The noise you describe, particularly the intermittent nature of it, sounds like it could be a lifter roller. Either way, it might be worth replacing the lifters with the top end rebuild if you can afford it, depending on mileage.

Hmm, well there's a few thoughts anyway.
Best of luck,
Andy

[WhipLash96]

Thanks. One more thing I am going to try to see if it goes away. If not, then it is time to break it down.

[andyxlh]

Cool. I'd have a careful listen to it through a screwdriver anyhow to try to isolate that noise. A lifter is very bad news if the rollers drop through the cams. The lifters on your bike are different to mine so I have no idea re longevity.

[WhipLash96]

It is weird that is for sure. It happens all the time but not until I am at highway speed and when the bike is warm.  At idle there is no noise. Strange.

[andyxlh]

Hmm. Usually I would have thought that the lifters would be noisier when at idle as the oil pressure is lower then
These x engines are very rattly anyway. It could simply be the way of things. Mines been rattling along for 25 years and the only time I worry is a sudden change in noise.
You have checked for a loose heat shield/ rattly gas cap and so on?
What about then it is hot and you rev it on the stand?
Have you checked the primary chain tension?

[WhipLash96]

Hmm. Usually I would have thought that the lifters would be noisier when at idle as the oil pressure is lower then
These x engines are very rattly anyway. It could simply be the way of things. Mines been rattling along for 25 years and the only time I worry is a sudden change in noise.
You have checked for a loose heat shield/ rattly gas cap and so on?
What about then it is hot and you rev it on the stand?
Have you checked the primary chain tension?

Yes I have checked for loose stuff. No heat shields though. No, I have not just let my bike idle to get hot. I am observing all of this as I ride.
P.S. I just adjusted primary tension.

[WhipLash96]

Ok. I changed oil on the bike so I could see if I have metal in the oil. No metal. I took it for a ride. All good until she reached about 150°. The noise came back, only this time, at the stop sign, I saw my oil light flicker. I drove a little more keeping an eye on the oil light. The oil light does not come on while riding but it does at a stop light, idling, with the clutch in and I roll on the throttle.

When I got home, I checked the bag to see fluid level and that is full. I checked that for a couple of different reasons. The major reason as to why I looked was that is that I wanted to rule out that I damaged the crank seal while I changed out my clutch.  Thinking that maybe I was losing oil to the primary. Noise still there and all oil present.

What next?

[andyxlh]

So you are saying that the oil light comes on when you roll the throttle, or it is on and goes out when you roll the throttle? This is unusual, and perhaps might point to an oil pump issue, but that's a guess. certainly the oil flow and therefore pressure should increase with revs not decrease.
Either way, I'd say it is time to have a look inside that bike.
the oil pump can be removed with the engine in-situ.
I'd be running it and trying to locate the sound before you do anything else. If you have good oil levels and the light is coming on as well as the bad noise then its time to take it more seriously. If the oil light only, perhaps the switch. Seems unlikely in this situation.
The oil light is reading the oil pressure post pump, up under the oil filter. Perhaps your noise is related to the pump, the oil pump drive gear? Have you got stock cams? has the cam cover been removed since new?
What sort of mileage?

[WhipLash96]

So you are saying that the oil light comes on when you roll the throttle, or it is on and goes out when you roll the throttle? This is unusual, and perhaps might point to an oil pump issue, but that's a guess. certainly the oil flow and therefore pressure should increase with revs not decrease.
Either way, I'd say it is time to have a look inside that bike.
the oil pump can be removed with the engine in-situ.
I'd be running it and trying to locate the sound before you do anything else. If you have good oil levels and the light is coming on as well as the bad noise then its time to take it more seriously. If the oil light only, perhaps the switch. Seems unlikely in this situation.
The oil light is reading the oil pressure post pump, up under the oil filter. Perhaps your noise is related to the pump, the oil pump drive gear? Have you got stock cams? has the cam cover been removed since new?
What sort of mileage?

No. When I am at a stop light and I roll on the throttle,  that is when my oil light comes on.

I will be checking over things pretty closely.  Mainly drive pulleys,  and yes my sending unit. I will also be looking for a collapsed return line at the pump. If all of that checks out, then it is time to cut the push rods and start taking a look at the lifters.

No, this is not a stock bike and the last time anyone has been in there is when I did the 1200 conversion.  23k on the bike and only 13k on the conversion.

[strokerjlk]

So you are saying that the oil light comes on when you roll the throttle, or it is on and goes out when you roll the throttle? This is unusual, and perhaps might point to an oil pump issue, but that's a guess. certainly the oil flow and therefore pressure should increase with revs not decrease.
Either way, I'd say it is time to have a look inside that bike.
the oil pump can be removed with the engine in-situ.
I'd be running it and trying to locate the sound before you do anything else. If you have good oil levels and the light is coming on as well as the bad noise then its time to take it more seriously. If the oil light only, perhaps the switch. Seems unlikely in this situation.
The oil light is reading the oil pressure post pump, up under the oil filter. Perhaps your noise is related to the pump, the oil pump drive gear? Have you got stock cams? has the cam cover been removed since new?
What sort of mileage?

No. When I am at a stop light and I roll on the throttle,  that is when my oil light comes on.

I will be checking over things pretty closely.  Mainly drive pulleys,  and yes my sending unit. I will also be looking for a collapsed return line at the pump. If all of that checks out, then it is time to cut the push rods and start taking a look at the lifters.

No, this is not a stock bike and the last time anyone has been in there is when I did the 1200 conversion.  23k on the bike and only 13k on the conversion.

If you still have solid push rod tubes .
Get yourself a quick change set up and adjustable push rods .

[WhipLash96]

Yes. Most likely will be going to adjustable push rods if I need to cut these.

[WhipLash96]

I will be bringing my Sportster to my tuner tomorrow and we are going to put it on the dyno.  Our objective is to repeat the noise that I am getting without the wind noise so he can hear what it is that I am talking about.  Along with this I will hook up an oil pressure gauge so I know exactly what I have or don't have.  Thoughts?

[andyxlh]

good luck, hope it is something easy and obvious.

[WhipLash96]

I got the oil pressure gauge hooked up.  I have 20 psi cold at idle and 12-13 psi warmed with no choke. 

Once the bike came up to temperature,  my wrench heard it right away. He is 99% sure I have a collapsed lifter. I ordered up the lifters today and should have them here by this time next week.  Thoughts?

[andyxlh]

That would have been my best guess. There's lots of moving bits in a sporty engine, but most of them last pretty much forever. Bearings and lifters excepted.

[WhipLash96]

Collapsed isn't really the right description.  More of bleeding down prematurely.

[WhipLash96]

Still waiting on the lifters then time to change lifters. Lifters should be here Wednesday.

[andyxlh]

Cool. I guess that doesn't have any nasty reprocussions except perhaps making the valve opening a little too small. I had the problem of the roller letting go on the bottom, which is a whole lot messier

[WhipLash96]

This is about as far as I got with changing out my lifters.  Life is still getting in the way.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/05/f15ba52620b9bb83e711b8bef82d3952.jpg[/img]]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/05/8e9442d3db664fbd2f0d0112ff319dc7.jpg[/img]]

As you can see there isn't a lot of progress.  Today I will be firing up the heater so it is a little more comfortable in the garage. 

[andyxlh]

Nice large work area though! Funnily, my bike sits amongst a variety of brightly coloured kids bikes and footballs as well, no matter how much I tidy up!

[WhipLash96]

Nice large work area though! Funnily, my bike sits amongst a variety of brightly coloured kids bikes and footballs as well, no matter how much I tidy up!

Yeah soon that won't be but for now, oh well. I am about to improve my work area by adding LED light rails and a heater for the garage.  Once that is done then I am going to continue my project.  I should have that done soon.

[andyxlh]

cool! nice thing about Sydney is you never need a heater even in the winter...

[WhipLash96]

Here are a couple of pictures of my lights and heater. FANTASTIC! [/IMG]

[/IMG]

[/IMG]

[WhipLash96]

Well I have finally been able to get started on tearing down my Sportster.  Very easy nothing out of the ordinary.  As usual though,  the rear support plate is more of pain in the ass to take out but easy. Only issue I am having is getting the rear intake lifter out. Not sure why it is being a pain in the ass?  Thoughts?

[WhipLash96]

Thank you Hammer Performance for taking the time to chat with me about this stuck lifter.

I have tried and tried to get this lifter out so my next step is take the cam cover off and go the opposite way. Fun.

[WhipLash96]

Not a lot of progress at the moment because of parent/teacher conferences but some has been made.

Here is a question. I am going to have to go into the cam chest and remove at least the rear intake lifter.  Now I won't be able to just take that one out will I? I would gave remove at least three of the four? Correct?

[andyxlh]

not 100% on the 5 speeds, but it should be the same as my older 4 speed case
when you remove the cam cover, the outboard bearing surface on the cams is a bronze bushing. the inboard is a roller bearing. the bushing tends to have a bit more stick than the bearings, and the cams may want to come out in the cam case not be left in the engine case. as you lift the cam case away just make sure to leave the cams in the engine case. you can push them back towards the cylinders with a flat screwdriver as you lift the case away. Be very careful of any shims which may be between the bushing and the camshafts as they must go back as they were.
once you have the cam cover off, you can turn the engine over to line up the dots on the cams and the pinon gear. then you can slide one cam out. The rear intake cam is also the one which runs the nose cone sensor but you will of course disconnected that before loosening the cover. it is the biggest one and probably the most awkward to get out on its own I would think, but I've only done them as a set (and a while ago too...!)

[WhipLash96]

Getting the cam cover off wasn't an issue at all it is just getting 3 lifters out that is pain. Yep, pretty much the same way, although I didn't have the shims that you are talking about. To get these three lifters out I am going to have to take the heads and jugs off. Don't ask me why because I can't make any sense of it. Dropping the lifter through the bottom just isn't going to happen.

[andyxlh]

Hmm.... your setup is different to mine, as my bike has separate lifter blocks so the lifters and the blocks can be removed from the cases, you lifter blocks are, I believe, part of the engine case. Either way, I'm pretty sure that you don't have to remove the barrels to do this job... crikey I sure hope you don't!
It has been 4 or 5 years since I had the last set of lifters in my bike so my memory is  little fuzzy....... I'm sure someone can chime in and sort out the correct procedure. What does the HD manual suggest?

[WhipLash96]

Hmm.... your setup is different to mine, as my bike has separate lifter blocks so the lifters and the blocks can be removed from the cases, you lifter blocks are, I believe, part of the engine case. Either way, I'm pretty sure that you don't have to remove the barrels to do this job... crikey I sure hope you don't!
It has been 4 or 5 years since I had the last set of lifters in my bike so my memory is  little fuzzy....... I'm sure someone can chime in and sort out the correct procedure. What does the HD manual suggest?

I guess I failed to mention that I do not have stock Harley cylinders on. Trust me, taking the cylinders and heads off were the best way.

[WhipLash96]

Go to www.bike-talk.com Look up a thread under the same title as this one. For some reason I can't get pictures to post on this site. The thread on Bike-talk is getting long. If you want to read the whole thread, by all means do. If not, go to the last few pages and see what I found. Very interesting.

[WhipLash96]

So I have been able to make a little bit of progress on tearing my Sportster apart.  So far the hole top end is off and I have the oil pump off and apart.  The oil pump is what is interesting.  I got it out and cleaning it down.  The inside of the housing looks ok as although there are dark lines across the upper side of the pump where the scavenging gerotor is. I can't feel any depth but makes me curious.  How ever when I was cleaning the gerotor's off, I noticed a CRACK going all the way across the gerotor.  Yes, it is on the saving gerotor too.

[WhipLash96]

Here is a good video of why my oil pump is junk. Not impressed.
Watch "Rod Slop. 1996 Sportster" on YouTube
Rod Slop. 1996 Sportster: http://youtu.be/aSvhKHcq85U

[akjeff]

Maybe I'm missing something. How does side play of the front con rod, translate to a trashed oil pump. I'd suspect that circulating debris from the loose wrist pin clip, is what ate the oil pump.

Jeff

[WhipLash96]

Maybe I'm missing something. How does side play of the front con rod, translate to a trashed oil pump. I'd suspect that circulating debris from the loose wrist pin clip, is what ate the oil pump.

Jeff

It doesn't,  not directly anyways. Sent a pm to you.

[akjeff]

Got it, and replied. Thanks for the PM!

Jeff

[WhipLash96]

Got it, and replied. Thanks for the PM!

Jeff

Email coming soon.

[Burch753]

I, too, am a little bit confused. Why/how did this rod play cause issue? I would assume certain some play is acceptable? As long as there is no 'up and down' play there should be little issue...?

Maybe someone more educated can answer?

[WhipLash96]

I, too, am a little bit confused. Why/how did this rod play cause issue? I would assume certain some play is acceptable? As long as there is no 'up and down' play there should be little issue...?

Maybe someone more educated can answer?

There are other major issues happening. I can't post pictures because Tapatalk won't upload them.  I have a trashed front cylinder. For some reason the pin clip worked itself loose. Either the clip or the pin left about a .100" gouge in the cylinder wall and cracked the cylinder.  I also have an oil pump that is trashed. The clip, that is still in my engine completely cracked the scavenging side gerotor.  I understand that some side play is normal however what i showed in the video seems excessive to me.  If you want, pm an email or phone number and I will be glad to show you other pictures.  At this point, I am speculating that what I think is excessive side play is a contributing factor to the cylinder.

[Burch753]

I see. Thank you for the clarification.

From my experience, the side-play you show is not concerning, at least not in a twin cam.

Good luck with your findings and build! I will continue to follow your updates. 

[akjeff]

I see. Thank you for the clarification.

From my experience, the side-play you show is not concerning, at least not in a twin cam.

Good luck with your findings and build! I will continue to follow your updates. 

Even if the side play weren't excessive, I'd still split the cases for a total cleaning/inspection. Those wrist pin clips are harder than woodpecker lips, and will wreck whatever they get into. A piece of that lurking somewhere in the motor, only to break free after a top end rebuild, would suck.... to say the least.JMO

I've only been inside two Twin Cams, but neither had side play even close to that in the video.

Jeff

[WhipLash96]

Was able to get some more progress done on my Sportster. I got the transmission out. Everything there looks really good from what I can see although I am now curious about something else and it does have to do with the transmission.