PV Auto tune on performance builds

[Sunny Jim]

It was suggested to me recently that Autotune is not a reliable Tuning method for performance builds. The algorithms throw up strange numbers when it comes to the VEs especially with performance cams. this is the suggestion. I thought AT was the way to go with PV. I see Fuelmoto doing many 107/ 777 builds with amazing success.
Would anyone care to comment?

[strokerjlk]

Myth ...  Plain and simple .
Its all in the hands of the operator .

[hrdtail78]

The whole targeted table to one AFR to use the AT's.  Then after VE's are mapped you want something different for something targeted.  Are the algorithms a dead nut match to the build, injector size, intake pipe combo the get the exact PW change the engine needs? 

Real easy to check.  After you get the targeted AFR set how you want them.  Sample front and rear.   

[Admiral Akbar]

With wide-band sensors, sounds like they are getting close to Tmax.. 

Max

[joe_lyons]

With wide-band sensors, sounds like they are getting close to Tmax.. 

Max

They are alike in that they have wide band sensors but that's about where it stops.

[rbabos]

With wide-band sensors, sounds like they are getting close to Tmax.. 

Max

Not even close.
Ron

[Admiral Akbar]

With wide-band sensors, sounds like they are getting close to Tmax.. 

Max

Not even close.
Ron

So it's still open loop afterwards?

Max

[rbabos]

With wide-band sensors, sounds like they are getting close to Tmax.. 

Max

Not even close.
Ron

So it's still open loop afterwards?

Max

BB's to dial in the ve's, then switched back to the stock NB sensors when tune is finalized.

[Admiral Akbar]

With wide-band sensors, sounds like they are getting close to Tmax.. 

Max

Not even close.
Ron

So it's still open loop afterwards?

Max

BB's to dial in the ve's, then switched back to the stock NB sensors when tune is finalized.

Sorry if this is OT here but when going back to narrow band sensors,  Is there a way to read what the sensors are doing.. IE a table that shows the updated adjustments.. What do the tweak.. VE?  AFR? or just PW results?

Max

[joe_lyons]

Yes.  You can view what the closed loop integrators are doing in the area that the bike is in closed loop.  This is the percentage change to the VE table.  You can also see the desired lambda/afr and the pulse width/duty cycle.

[hrdtail78]

With wide-band sensors, sounds like they are getting close to Tmax.. 

Max

Not even close.
Ron

So it's still open loop afterwards?

Max

BB's to dial in the ve's, then switched back to the stock NB sensors when tune is finalized.

Sorry if this is OT here but when going back to narrow band sensors,  Is there a way to read what the sensors are doing.. IE a table that shows the updated adjustments.. What do the tweak.. VE?  AFR? or just PW results?

Max

I always tune with NB where I am going to run NB.  It makes no sense to think that centering the VE table with WB and then let NB figure it out down the road.  And remember, this is all with adaptive off.  So, the ECM is going to need for the NB's to adjust from where the WB centered every time.

You can load the cal that was made with WB's.  Close loop tune the area you are going to run CL and look at the changes to see how far apart the sensors are or changes that the NB wants to make. 

I always read WB's with blocks on motorcycles that are CL capable.  This allows reading with both types of sensors at the same time, real time.

[rbabos]

With wide-band sensors, sounds like they are getting close to Tmax.. 

Max

Not even close.
Ron

So it's still open loop afterwards?

Max

BB's to dial in the ve's, then switched back to the stock NB sensors when tune is finalized.

Sorry if this is OT here but when going back to narrow band sensors,  Is there a way to read what the sensors are doing.. IE a table that shows the updated adjustments.. What do the tweak.. VE?  AFR? or just PW results?

Max

I always tune with NB where I am going to run NB.  It makes no sense to think that centering the VE table with WB and then let NB figure it out down the road.  And remember, this is all with adaptive off.  So, the ECM is going to need for the NB's to adjust from where the WB centered every time.

You can load the cal that was made with WB's.  Close loop tune the area you are going to run CL and look at the changes to see how far apart the sensors are or changes that the NB wants to make. 

I always read WB's with blocks on motorcycles that are CL capable.  This allows reading with both types of sensors at the same time, real time.

Being as I only had the NB to work with is the reason I went with Logtuner for a more exacting ve/clb and integrator relationship. Seemed to work out ok. Tuning Basic default clb only and then changing clbs had the integrators off by 10%. Too much adjustment needed in my view.
Ron

[rageglide]

Once you switched back to NBs I would leave WBs in place then use the Gauge mode (or capture logs) to monitor WB output in real time so as to confirm NB is operating as expected.   

Because NBs are so far down stream they will likely act different than the WBs depending on the exhuast.  For example the X pipe headers would probably be a bad choice in this case.  Especially with a free flowing muffler.  If you look up a Rinehart for example you can see the rear O2 sensor in the right side muffler.

Would *really* be nice to use the Power Vision and WBs in real time like you can with PC V.

[Sunny Jim]

2012 SG 107 nikasil .200/205 ccp. 577 tman  cams, Fullsac and C/mellows.
I ran my bike over the weekend with its current map ,largely dominated by 14.6 in the AFRs in central part of the map. logging the data, several times.

My engine temp was 258 deg F at its highest point. the day was 25 deg C . I then checked previous data and at one point the bike had got to 280 deg F.

my timing is in the area of 24 - 45 deg from 2250 4000 rpm at 30 - 60% throttle.

Its seems to me that I need more fuel. this beast runs hot.