thinking...square

[HD/Wrench]

Well then its fixed HA HA Glad to hear it..

[1FSTRK]

you may be on to something there Eric 
At this point I'm not ruling out anything. That could be an option beings we know those cylinders and pistons should be available.

Ray

If you start with the basic 143 and build it with 4.375 flywheels and a longer rod, the only one off part would be the connecting rods.
You stay with the standard pistons and cylinders that are off the shelf then the engine height and all the mounting points and manifold stuff will be the same as the 143. Carrillo or Darkhorse should be able to set you up but there are others that make custom rods.
This is how Buell made the XB9 and kept the cost down.

[Matt C]

never mind.

What would custom rods cost?

[turboprop]

With the longer rods comes an improved rod/stroke ratio and the possibility of longer piston skirts and the accompanying improved ring stability, seal, consistent tune, etc, etc.  Good stuff.

For reference, I had Carrillo make me a set of 8" connecting rods for my TC project. I think total price through Hobans for just the rods was in the neighborhood of $750.

[hrdtail78]

I'd take a step back.  Figure out what you want the build to do.  What kind of power is going to make you happy, and then go from there.  Seems you are trying to run the cart but the horse is still in the barn.

Now longer rods are being talked about.  Ratio is brought up with the other beni's but there are downfalls as well.  Before I put Carrillo rods in my 128.  I had a good understanding of rod ratio.  Maybe a raised deck case is in order.

As others will tell you.  Putting all the best parts together isn't what makes great builds.  It is putting the best match parts together.  I'd hate to see someone dump money hand over fist to put together an engine that doesn't play well together.

[1FSTRK]

The point would be to not have to raise the deck and require moving farther from the design work S&S has already done on the 143, include the fact in fits in the frame and has available motor mounts.

I agree, do the math and everything else that should be done when designing a new build. I am just saying with factory R/S numbers already going from 1.638:1 to 1.917:1 that this motor combo should not be outside of reasonable.

[CowboyTutt]

S&S can make the T2 cases with a raised deck.  I don't know too many people capable of designing the long rod 135 engine with the 4 3/8th stroke and pistons but it sure looks interesting.  Don Dorfman at HD Street Performance with Terry Stewart at Shaker Products could do it.  The question is, would S&S even build you the custom parts for it? 

Also, I think Ray is looking to use off the shelf parts and not have to pay for custom parts but I'm not 100% certain of that.  S&S cylinders are available for a 4 3/8th bore but they are custom machined and not off the shelf.  Probably not so cheap either.   

-Tutt 

[turboprop]

There are many shops that could easily build this engine.

On this forum Kirby, WFO Larry, John Sachs and Diamond Bar come to mind. There are many others that are not on this forum that could also do it. As has already been stated, this could be done easily with all off-the-shelf parts with the exception being the connecting rods. The good thing about custom rods is they can be purchased in a single set and the NRE for them is relatively easy.

Additionally, this or at least something very similar has already been done. Probably many times. Of the two that I have seen, both of them were complete failures. Sort of like circus side shows. They looked neat, whoo'd the crowd, and made what seemed like big numbers, but in actuality they were pigs. Couldnt breath right. Power to cube was weak. Only so much room between the cylinders

[No Cents]

 well men...this is all in the planning stages as you all well know. I haven't got anything in stone yet.
I "WILL" not build a turd Ed...you can take that one to the bank.    I will attempt to build me a lower compression bigger inch motor that will cruise all day long and be able to run on junk fuel if it has to.
I hope nobody has taken offense of me posting this thread. Looking back...I should not of said a thing and just did the build after doing my research.
The only reason I posted this thread was to hopefully get some good ideas from people that might have tried to do something like this...or possibly knew someone that had.
I didn't want to start a debate or have members going back and forth at each other over differences in opinions. This was not my goal.
  Thanks for all the input I received from everybody and I'll keep researching for my best options to fulfill my goals.

Ray

[CowboyTutt]

Well said Ray!  I still think your 135 inch build using a 4.5 inch stroke and 4 3/8th's bore is the best way to go for your rpm range.  It should work fine.  But that will still require some custom parts.  -Tutt 

[kd]

Well, as Ray has stated, this thread has gone around a few corners. As I see it, I think we need to remember .....

      1. - Ray wants to be the builder not the buyer
      2. - He wants it to be high quality and smooth
      3. - It has to be able to tour 2 up and loaded all day every day dependably
      4. - It won't have to do burnouts and wheelies  but it has to pull stumps when asked to
      5. - He trusts the people here to give good suggestions and advice so he can make good decisions.

Kept on track, this thread could help a lot of other folks that are thinking the along the same lines (but are keeping it to themselves). I see some value in the cautions about using one off parts. Hard to fix on the road but no big deal if it's your bar hopper. If you break something at home you can ride "the other bike" while you wait for parts. Not so when you're in East Pumphandle Saskatchewan with your wife on a holiday.  For example, if it was me, and because s--t happens sometimes when you are travelling, I'm sticking to Harley parts (cylinders, pistons etc) for the touring 120R I'm putting together now. Paranoid? Probably. (Dan Baisley and Ron Dickey said so when I decided to not go with 20* cut pistons  )

There's lots of recipes out there that will do the job Ray. You know enough and how to make the right choices and you know who to trust for advice. It's going to be real interesting to see where you settle out. Take your time and breath deep when it gets confusing. 

[1FSTRK]

S&S can make the T2 cases with a raised deck.  I don't know too many people capable of designing the long rod 135 engine with the 4 3/8th stroke and pistons but it sure looks interesting.  Don Dorfman at HD Street Performance with Terry Stewart at Shaker Products could do it.  The question is, would S&S even build you the custom parts for it? 

Also, I think Ray is looking to use off the shelf parts and not have to pay for custom parts but I'm not 100% certain of that.  S&S cylinders are available for a 4 3/8th bore but they are custom machined and not off the shelf.  Probably not so cheap either.   

-Tutt

As I said the entire motor would be off the shelf 143 except for the crank That would be standard 103 stroke flywheels and custom rods. Very seldom do you have a rod problem if you use a quality one to begin with, So the only custom one off part is the rods. As for how it would work I hear lots of opinions and very little facts.

[1FSTRK]

Does anyone know the rod length for the S&S 143?

[No Cents]

7.659" rods for the 4 5/8" flywheels in the 143.
They also use the same 7.659" rods in the 4 3/8" flywheels.

Ray

[1FSTRK]

7.659" rods for the 4 5/8" flywheels in the 143.
They also use the same 7.659" rods in the 4 3/8" flywheels.

Ray

Are you sure the 143 uses 7.659" rods?
In the specs GMR posted He said they are 7.88" in the 143 motor.

Added

95" twin cam has a R/S of 1.917

103" Twin cam has a R/S of 1.752

120R has a R/S of 1.638

S&S 143 has a R/S of 1.703 if it has a 7.88" rod

New 135 R/S will be 1.830 with a .125 longer rod than the S&S143

If the S&S143 rod is 7.659 then it has a R/S of 1.656

The new 135 would then have a R/S of 1.75 with the longer custom rod.

[HD/Wrench]

7.800 Rod.

[hrdtail78]

I brought up rod ratio and raised decks as an example.

[1FSTRK]

Are you or anybody else doing anything to help pressure and venting in the crank to cam chest?

Using the reed valve on INA of course. But I thought about adding on vents thru reeds between the two cavities in ann effort to make the avail space for the crank case a little larger. Probably hobbie crap though.

Another plus for de-stroking the 143 to a 135 long rod would be 5.6% less swept volume being serviced by the same cases and cylinders.Should reduce crankcase pressure and pumping losses.
I may talk myself into this if Ray doesn't build it.

[turboprop]

Just out of curiosity, and maybe I missed it, but whats the MSRP on this 143/144 crate engine?

[76shuvlinoff]

but whats the MSRP on this 143/144 crate engine?

I bet it's less than a 142" billet shovel from SP.

[turboprop]

That beast from Sorenson was $15k. Would like to see what it does on the dyno compared to the beast that Jim just tuned.

[hrdtail78]

 

[Buffalo]

  Last I heard, the 144 was $9250US.
For the life of me I can't conceive why anyone would suggest buying a 144, and destroking it when the OP specified HE wants to BUILD a 131, 4 3/8 x 4 3/8 square bore.
  I'm sure it can be done thru S&S. They can make whatever is required for this combo if its not already available.
No cents, you might contact Star Racing as well, since they and S&S work hand in hand for parts, some of which only appear to be thru Star.
I'm quite interested in your 'SQUARE ENGINE", sounds like a beaut.  Buffalo

[No Cents]

 
thank you Buffalo!
I'm sticking to my original plan for a square motor...unless someone I know and trusts tells me something different and shows me a good reason why I shouldn't.
I know I can get the 4 3/8" bore T2 cases...check.
heads...check.
pistons/cylinders...unknown as to what to use and where to get them.

I'd like to do one stop shopping on pistons and cylinder if possible. I've not gave up hope on finding them...I just got to find someone that's willing to tell me they have or can get or make me what I need for that end of my project.  I've stepped back and I'm trying to do some more research on cylinders. I still go back looking at the aluminum finned ductile cylinder for some reason. I like the idea of the cylinders being bolted to the case with the shorter studs. It just seems like it would make for a stronger unit vs having the longer cylinder studs that will have some flex. My worries are heat dissipation with the ductile cylinder  vs the iron lined cylinder.
I'll keep looking at my options...so far I haven't ruled out anything.

Ray

[hotbo]

Keep up the search Ray!  Build it how you want it and have fun doing it 
i have always enjoyed reading your threads and look forward to this beast. 

Travis