Narrow band AutoTune pulling VE 3500-4000 RPM???

[rbabos]

If that is really true, it's pretty nefarious... and I can't imagine why there's not a class action suit.  But then again HD worship can make people get real dumb chasing the dream...

883's and 1200's with carbs were still considered the entry bike and the trade up program that HD ran for years worked very well to get folks on a big twin.

Between this thread and the Road Tuning threads are enough to drive people back to Carbs.   Analog vs digital debate.

Since you mentioned it, some of the nicest running HD's I've hear have been carbed bikes. Even the sportsters run ok with them. Makes you wonder sometimes. Actually HD was sued for high heat burning the riders in some class action I read the other day. HD lost. Most just tolerate defects to live the dream. Compensators is one example, slipped cranks, failing lifters, inner cam bearings, shall I go on? Oh, and don't forget, the new bike needs a tune to run better and cooler.
Ron

[rageglide]

If that is really true, it's pretty nefarious... and I can't imagine why there's not a class action suit.  But then again HD worship can make people get real dumb chasing the dream...

883's and 1200's with carbs were still considered the entry bike and the trade up program that HD ran for years worked very well to get folks on a big twin.

Between this thread and the Road Tuning threads are enough to drive people back to Carbs.   Analog vs digital debate.

Since you mentioned it, some of the nicest running HD's I've hear have been carbed bikes. Even the sportsters run ok with them. Makes you wonder sometimes. Actually HD was sued for high heat burning the riders in some class action I read the other day. HD lost. Most just tolerate defects to live the dream. Compensators is one example, slipped cranks, failing lifters, inner cam bearings, shall I go on? Oh, and don't forget, the new bike needs a tune to run better and cooler.
Ron

I tell ya!  Carb bike runs cooler, gets great mileage and doesn't cost an arm and a leg to tune.  Good friend of mine had a great sounding 883 he rode for years... gutless, but sounded great.

My 103" as you may recall has been a huge challenge to tune using PV autotune.  Plenty of assistance here in AFR Tuning zone, and still never could get the tune to stop drifting into the toilet...  it's ridiculous and frustrating beyond words.    The only saving grace is that I can pin the freakin throttle and get out of the low speed garbage zone...  Kinda rough on tires tho.    

[FLTRI]

Yes we have it but she wants to sell it.

I was told by a Harley engineer that this was done on the Sporty to make them feel bad so people would "Move up to a BT"  And that the VRod ran too smooth and they did not want to make that "Mistake" again on the new Sporty EFI setup.

They succeeded at that.

Andy

Don't believe that crap Andy. The MOCO doesn't "Potty mouth" a tune to sell other bikes.
The MOCO can't seem develop a good performance calibration because Screamin' Eagle division doesn't work closely with the OEM divisions engineers. When I worked for the MOCO they didn't like comparing notes.

If that is really true, it's pretty nefarious... and I can't imagine why there's not a class action suit.  But then again HD worship can make people get real dumb chasing the dream...

883's and 1200's with carbs were still considered the entry bike and the trade up program that HD ran for years worked very well to get folks on a big twin.

Between this thread and the Road Tuning threads are enough to drive people back to Carbs.   Analog vs digital debate.

Since you mentioned it, some of the nicest running HD's I've hear have been carbed bikes. Even the sportsters run ok with them. Makes you wonder sometimes. Actually HD was sued for high heat burning the riders in some class action I read the other day. HD lost. Most just tolerate defects to live the dream. Compensators is one example, slipped cranks, failing lifters, inner cam bearings, shall I go on? Oh, and don't forget, the new bike needs a tune to run better and cooler.
Ron

For that reason TTS and others stay busy.
Bob

[whittlebeast]

Bob, it is by far the most logical explanation I have ever heard once you ride one and are willing to look at the logs.

Andy

[whittlebeast]

My 103" as you may recall has been a huge challenge to tune using PV autotune.  Plenty of assistance here in AFR Tuning zone, and still never could get the tune to stop drifting into the toilet...  it's ridiculous and frustrating beyond words.    The only saving grace is that I can pin the freakin throttle and get out of the low speed garbage zone...  Kinda rough on tires tho.   

Post up a HUGE log and let's take a look.  If it is bad enough that you can feel it from the seat, most likely it will be fairy easy to spot in a log.

[FLTRI]

Andy,
For the life of me I can't imagine why you've had such a hard time tuning a Sporty...especially after many huge logs to identify the issue(s) and fix it/them.
As I've stated I have tuned many Sportys without any issues except for the low rpm/load area in which I simply leave open loop.
That said, if the the O2s are not seeing good sampling dues to exhaust issues and/or the O2s are not deep enough to get good signalling...all bets are off.

Bob

[whittlebeast]

Andy,
For the life of me I can't imagine why you've had such a hard time tuning a Sporty...especially after many huge logs to identify the issue(s) and fix it/them.
As I've stated I have tuned many Sportys without any issues except for the low rpm/load area in which I simply leave open loop.
That said, if the the O2s are not seeing good sampling dues to exhaust issues and/or the O2s are not deep enough to get good signalling...all bets are off.

Bob

The only real tuning problems I had was knowing there were Harley Hidden Tables that were keeping me from "fixing" the issues.  Finally one company came along that was not hiding critical data in the logs and slowly started uncovering some of the Hidden tables.  Things got way easier to get closer when tuning these bikes.

Apparently, you found the same issue per your post.

Andy

[rbabos]

My 103" as you may recall has been a huge challenge to tune using PV autotune.  Plenty of assistance here in AFR Tuning zone, and still never could get the tune to stop drifting into the toilet...  it's ridiculous and frustrating beyond words.    The only saving grace is that I can pin the freakin throttle and get out of the low speed garbage zone...  Kinda rough on tires tho.   

Post up a HUGE log and let's take a look.  If it is bad enough that you can feel it from the seat, most likely it will be fairy easy to spot in a log.

I doubt it would show anything wrong. Most likely he has too much timing in that particular area. Logs could be showing all ducky, when in fact timing needs to be dropped and the engine slightly detuned to tame it. Might need a hair more fuel to go with that.  Classic light load bucking is what I call it and every engine, even autos can suffer this effect. Cure is always the same. Feel it, fix it and fk the log. Only thing that needs to be identified is where in the cal this is happening.
Ron

[whittlebeast]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=NZR64EF3OpA#t=54

Some people like auditors, prefer to look before making a call.  Other people, like politicians, never want you to look.  How has that worked out for us?

Andy

[rbabos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=NZR64EF3OpA#t=54

Some people like auditors, prefer to look before making a call.  Other people, like politicians, never want you to look.  How has that worked out for us?

Andy

Next time I feel an engine bucking and chirping the rear tire on light load or decel, I'll look in the log to make sure I'm not imagining it. Hopefully the log will explain how to fix the condition. NOT.  Data is good if it's accurate. Data with common sense PRICELESS.
Ron

[hrdtail78]

Bob, it is by far the most logical explanation I have ever heard once you ride one and are willing to look at the logs.

Andy

Look what Harley really cares about with their EFI tuner.  EPA.  The calibrations are made to work for the purpose of appeasing EPA.  Does EPA care about lean surge?  Look how things are set up in the back ground for this tuner.  Or the tuner that is copied and based off the same.

My 103" as you may recall has been a huge challenge to tune using PV autotune.

You are not alone.  For years this board has been full of threads about street tuning and lower kpa/rpm problem area.  People have bought into all the auto tune, automation programs.  The emailed calibrations.  This stuff seems to work about 80% of the time, but what about the other 20%?  What are the answers?  Buy more equipment, change exhaust, modify exhaust for better sampling, randomly throw VE changes at it, and take it to a dyno tuner?

I know how I deal with this problem and talk to enough tuners to know how they do it.  I don't have a clue how some of you do it on the road with your limited equipment.

[rageglide]

You are not alone.  For years this board has been full of threads about street tuning and lower kpa/rpm problem area.  People have bought into all the auto tune, automation programs.  The emailed calibrations.  This stuff seems to work about 80% of the time, but what about the other 20%?  What are the answers?  Buy more equipment, change exhaust, modify exhaust for better sampling, randomly throw VE changes at it, and take it to a dyno tuner?

I know how I deal with this problem and talk to enough tuners to know how they do it.  I don't have a clue how some of you do it on the road with your limited equipment.

You're not kidding...   I don't know how others do it.    What drives me to drinkin is the area I can work the easiest refuses to settle down in normal use.  It'll run real well on a fresh flash but degrade quickly or slowly depending on whether adaptive is disabled or not.   Not knowing how all the factors interact is the biggest challenge for a guy like me.  I've never been to a tuning class for TTS or PV etc, so there are huge holes in the knowledge.  Wish I could.

I know the tuning issues drive independent guys crazy too.  One of the local guys used to have a guy who did tuning on the bikes that came into the shop.  The guy would spend all day on a tune trying to get it perfect, no money to made doing that... So the owner decided enough efi tuning.  Now he uses his dyno to validate the carb/timing on the builds he prefers to do.  Plus, on top of that EPA/CARB foks is putting the squeeze on shops that tune EFI for obvious reasons...  I just need to figure out how to convert to carb on this new bike... I'll be so much happier.

[rbabos]

Bob, it is by far the most logical explanation I have ever heard once you ride one and are willing to look at the logs.

Andy

Look what Harley really cares about with their EFI tuner.  EPA.  The calibrations are made to work for the purpose of appeasing EPA.  Does EPA care about lean surge?  Look how things are set up in the back ground for this tuner.  Or the tuner that is copied and based off the same.

My 103" as you may recall has been a huge challenge to tune using PV autotune.

You are not alone.  For years this board has been full of threads about street tuning and lower kpa/rpm problem area.  People have bought into all the auto tune, automation programs.  The emailed calibrations.  This stuff seems to work about 80% of the time, but what about the other 20%?  What are the answers?  Buy more equipment, change exhaust, modify exhaust for better sampling, randomly throw VE changes at it, and take it to a dyno tuner?

I know how I deal with this problem and talk to enough tuners to know how they do it.  I don't have a clue how some of you do it on the road with your limited equipment.

Those would be secrets. One example would be, you do not need sensors to dial in a perfect idle ve table for each cylinder.
Ron

[whittlebeast]

Bob

Here is the screen shot.  This happens to be at idle buy driving only looks worse.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/SportyClosedLoop.png

Andy

[hrdtail78]

Bob, it is by far the most logical explanation I have ever heard once you ride one and are willing to look at the logs.

Andy

Look what Harley really cares about with their EFI tuner.  EPA.  The calibrations are made to work for the purpose of appeasing EPA.  Does EPA care about lean surge?  Look how things are set up in the back ground for this tuner.  Or the tuner that is copied and based off the same.

My 103" as you may recall has been a huge challenge to tune using PV autotune.

You are not alone.  For years this board has been full of threads about street tuning and lower kpa/rpm problem area.  People have bought into all the auto tune, automation programs.  The emailed calibrations.  This stuff seems to work about 80% of the time, but what about the other 20%?  What are the answers?  Buy more equipment, change exhaust, modify exhaust for better sampling, randomly throw VE changes at it, and take it to a dyno tuner?

I know how I deal with this problem and talk to enough tuners to know how they do it.  I don't have a clue how some of you do it on the road with your limited equipment.

Those would be secrets. One example would be, you do not need sensors to dial in a perfect idle ve table for each cylinder.
Ron

Nope, but they sure help to get you close.  The other part of that is timing and how they effect each other.  Something that isn't addressed with any wiz bang, DIFY tuners.  Say we do set up a perfect idle at 14.7 and 4 degrees pulled.  What happens when the 4 is added back and we target a 13.8 idle?

[hrdtail78]

It'll run real well on a fresh flash but degrade quickly or slowly depending on whether adaptive is disabled or not.   Not knowing how all the factors interact is the biggest challenge for a guy like me.  I've never been to a tuning class for TTS or PV etc, so there are huge holes in the knowledge.  Wish I could.

That is interesting.  I was under the impression from this site that only adaptive degrades a tune?  Maybe it is one of those tables that doesn't do what it says it does.  If adaptive is truly off.  Learning is not happening.  Shutting off the bike should reset back to the calibration VE's.  Maybe they have it marked wrong like some of the other tables.

[rbabos]

Bob, it is by far the most logical explanation I have ever heard once you ride one and are willing to look at the logs.

Andy

Look what Harley really cares about with their EFI tuner.  EPA.  The calibrations are made to work for the purpose of appeasing EPA.  Does EPA care about lean surge?  Look how things are set up in the back ground for this tuner.  Or the tuner that is copied and based off the same.

My 103" as you may recall has been a huge challenge to tune using PV autotune.

You are not alone.  For years this board has been full of threads about street tuning and lower kpa/rpm problem area.  People have bought into all the auto tune, automation programs.  The emailed calibrations.  This stuff seems to work about 80% of the time, but what about the other 20%?  What are the answers?  Buy more equipment, change exhaust, modify exhaust for better sampling, randomly throw VE changes at it, and take it to a dyno tuner?

I know how I deal with this problem and talk to enough tuners to know how they do it.  I don't have a clue how some of you do it on the road with your limited equipment.

Those would be secrets. One example would be, you do not need sensors to dial in a perfect idle ve table for each cylinder.
Ron

Nope, but they sure help to get you close.  The other part of that is timing and how they effect each other.  Something that isn't addressed with any wiz bang, DIFY tuners.  Say we do set up a perfect idle at 14.7 and 4 degrees pulled.  What happens when the 4 is added back and we target a 13.8 idle?

Us wizbangers wouldn't pull it in the first place. We add +4 to counter the 4 pulled to come out even. You gotta out think that little box of tricks. Mind you, that's using autotune to get the ve's. I was talking some other method to attain idle ve's.
Ron

[whittlebeast]

I the wiz-bang world of Megasquirt, we have different VE tables and Spark tables that cone into play after the motor is as idle conditions for some amount of time.  That way we can massage timing over a very small and very adjustable range to use timing maps to stabilize idle.

We can get a Rap-Rap-Rap-Rap race rotary motor to idle perfect in a few min.

Andy

[hrdtail78]

Us wizbangers wouldn't pull it in the first place. We add +4 to counter the 4 pulled to come out even. You gotta out think that little box of tricks. Mind you, that's using autotune to get the ve's. I was talking some other method to attain idle ve's.
Ron

To be clear.  I wasn't calling anybody a wizbang.  I was calling the devices wizbangs. 

[rageglide]

That is interesting.  I was under the impression from this site that only adaptive degrades a tune?  Maybe it is one of those tables that doesn't do what it says it does.  If adaptive is truly off.  Learning is not happening.  Shutting off the bike should reset back to the calibration VE's.  Maybe they have it marked wrong like some of the other tables.

  Hey I'm even willing to believe some of this is my imagination!  Maybe my expectation is set too high. 

[rbabos]

That is interesting.  I was under the impression from this site that only adaptive degrades a tune?  Maybe it is one of those tables that doesn't do what it says it does.  If adaptive is truly off.  Learning is not happening.  Shutting off the bike should reset back to the calibration VE's.  Maybe they have it marked wrong like some of the other tables.

  Hey I'm even willing to believe some of this is my imagination!  Maybe my expectation is set too high. 

Not at all. Expect near perfection.

[rageglide]

That is interesting.  I was under the impression from this site that only adaptive degrades a tune?  Maybe it is one of those tables that doesn't do what it says it does.  If adaptive is truly off.  Learning is not happening.  Shutting off the bike should reset back to the calibration VE's.  Maybe they have it marked wrong like some of the other tables.

  Hey I'm even willing to believe some of this is my imagination!  Maybe my expectation is set too high. 

Not at all. Expect near perfection.

I liked the original post better  ;-)   Lots of valid points.

[FLTRI]

Bob

Here is the screen shot.  This happens to be at idle buy driving only looks worse.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/SportyClosedLoop.png

Andy

And the problem is?
Bob

[whittlebeast]

Here is the Sporty at idle

http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/SportyClosedLoop.png

Compared to the Big twin at the same scale

http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/BT%20in%20Closed%20Loop.png


Andy

[hrdtail78]

The BT's idle is accelerating?