92 1200 Engine trouble

[King Inky]

Hello all,

Back in April, I bought my 2nd bike and my first Harley, a 92 Sportster XLH1200. It had always made a bit of a tapping sound from the front cylinder, some people told me it was normal on older engines like that, others (myself included) thought it must be a bit more serious than it seemed. Turns out, the tapping wasn't normal at all. Yesterday, my brother and I were on a ride and I noticed that the slight tapping wasn't so slight anymore. We planned to take it to the shop where he works (he's an auto mechanic) and put a stethoscope to it to pinpoint the location of the noise to see if it was piston slap, something in the push rods, or elsewhere. When we got to his shop, I decided to run out and get some new oil to put in it. I rode the 5 miles to the local A&A and picked up some Royal Purple Max Cycle 20W-50 to put in it. Unfortunately, about 1 1/2 to 2 miles from his shop, something let loose and the front cylinder was a). no longer firing and b.) making the most horrible metal on metal sound I've heard. Not wanting to leave the bike on the side of the road, I reluctantly limped the bike the rest of the way back to his shop.

From what I was researching previously about the tapping noise, I am inclined to believe it was something with the push rod. The tapping wouldn't be there if I were decelerating or at certain throttle positions/ RPMs. Unfortunately, the breakage occurred before being able to get the stethoscope on it and figure out exactly where the problem lay. Luckily my one buddy who has a truck wasn't busy and was able to pick myself and the bike up and return us to my house. On the way, we stopped at his brother's house (he's a Jeep dealership mechanic, but is very knowledgeable mechanically on just about anything). I fired the bike over for him and he immediately thought a push rod was no longer connected and told me not to fire it up anymore.

Can anyone give me any advice on what to do? If it IS in fact the push rods, I feel like I could fix the problem myself using both the Clymer and the Harley service manuals that I have. However, I fear that the problem may be more than just the push rods or could be another problem altogether. I'm very inclined to take it to either the Harley dealership or an independent shop to have them work on it, but I am not aware of any indy places that do Harleys around where I live (Eastern PA). Could anybody recommend a shop that I could take it to? I'd be willing to make a hike to get it somewhere, I just really want to ride again...

Thank you all for taking the time to read this, and any suggestion would help me out greatly!

[messed up]

No expert, but pretty easy to see if a pushrod, lifter is loose.

[aswracing]

Anything that anyone tells you about what might've gone wrong is just guessing.

Pop the rocker box top off - it's only 4 screws. Whatever happened might be readily apparent. You could've done that faster than you typing your post.

Even pulling the head is a pretty darn simple thing to do. These motors are not complicated.

Ditch the Clymer, use your Harley factory service manual.

[Pete_Vit]

Humm, I have a 93 Sporty 1200 that let go of all the oil in the interstate back in 03, piston scrapping, shut it down, too late. I've never tore down a motor  before, with my Bud's help diagnosing the problem he suggested a full top end rebuild. I have the service manual and at the time a great 883 -1200 write up I found on the now defunked 'sportster.org' It took longer to get the pistons than it did for me to do the rebuild, take your time, listen to folk's who've done this a lot of time and you should be able to do this yourself.
the EVO 1200 motor is a nice easy motor to work on, but like anything else take inventory of the parts, tag and bag, so your not left scratching your head later wondering where these parts go 
I think finding a good machine shop is sometimes the hardest part of the rebuild process.
If your living in Eastern PA, I was born / raised in SE PA, there are some good Indy shops in Delaware and MD, if your close enough.

[King Inky]

Anything that anyone tells you about what might've gone wrong is just guessing.

Pop the rocker box top off - it's only 4 screws. Whatever happened might be readily apparent. You could've done that faster than you typing your post.

Even pulling the head is a pretty darn simple thing to do. These motors are not complicated.

Ditch the Clymer, use your Harley factory service manual.

Thanks for the reply! Couldn't agree more that any "diagnosis" at this point is absolutely just a guess. I'm completely new to motorcycle engines and am just afraid of digging myself into a hole I won't be able to get out of, but if you say it's pretty simple then I believe you and will open it up hopefully this weekend.

I only got the Clymer because there are some times where the Clymer mentions a technique or shows a picture that the FSM may not, but I always use the FSM as a first resource anyway.

I think finding a good machine shop is sometimes the hardest part of the rebuild process.
If your living in Eastern PA, I was born / raised in SE PA, there are some good Indy shops in Delaware and MD, if your close enough.

Like I said, I'm willing to make a hike in order to get it somewhere if it seems like more than I'm willing to handle once I open it up. Could you provide me a few of those shops' names just in case?

Much appreciated, everyone, I cannot thank you guys enough for helping!

[Pete_Vit]

let me check to see if any of the local guys I know are still around, someone else may chime in before, but I'll see

[Panzer]

There are several dealers in E. Pa.
I'm in S.E. Pa.
Harley dealers near you......................

               

Hope it helps.

[FLHRI_2004]

Panzer, it's easy to find the H-D shops.  But finding a good indie that you can trust is more difficult.

[dr evo1]

like some one posted easy to pull the front rocker cover. can't tell much only push rods and rocker arms. I would find a good shop and get a real estimate it is only 1.4 hrs labor to pull the top end. I have never seen a 1200 break a push rod they are non adjustable. sounds more like a lifter or a piston.

[Panzer]

Panzer, it's easy to find the H-D shops.  But finding a good indie that you can trust is more difficult.

Can't you recommend a trustworthy one since you're in that area?

[Pete_Vit]

so I talked to my Sister and her husband about some Indy dealers, he came up with a couple suggestions;
White Knuckle Racing,its in Newcastle DE. the guy there has worked on my bikes for 28+ years,he is the best around the number is 302-328-4917. I hope its OK to post a phone #, if not I can PM the poster.
also 'another in Kinzer,Pa i think its called iron man,he is supposed to be pretty good"
HTH's

[King Inky]

so I talked to my Sister and her husband about some Indy dealers, he came up with a couple suggestions;
White Knuckle Racing,its in Newcastle DE. the guy there has worked on my bikes for 28+ years,he is the best around the number is 302-328-4917. I hope its OK to post a phone #, if not I can PM the poster.
also 'another in Kinzer,Pa i think its called iron man,he is supposed to be pretty good"
HTH's

Thank you!

[King Inky]

like some one posted easy to pull the front rocker cover. can't tell much only push rods and rocker arms. I would find a good shop and get a real estimate it is only 1.4 hrs labor to pull the top end. I have never seen a 1200 break a push rod they are non adjustable. sounds more like a lifter or a piston.

Unless the guy that had the bike before the person I bought it off of put adjustables in there, unfortunately that guy is no longer around and cannot be contacted... I will keep updating this as I start pulling it apart. I'm gonna open it up this weekend, though! Thanks!

[Pete_Vit]

so I talked to my Sister and her husband about some Indy dealers, he came up with a couple suggestions;
White Knuckle Racing,its in Newcastle DE. the guy there has worked on my bikes for 28+ years,he is the best around the number is 302-328-4917. I hope its OK to post a phone #, if not I can PM the poster.
also 'another in Kinzer,Pa i think its called iron man,he is supposed to be pretty good"
HTH's

Thank you!

Your welcome and good luck!

[FLHRI_2004]

Panzer, it's easy to find the H-D shops.  But finding a good indie that you can trust is more difficult.

Can't you recommend a trustworthy one since you're in that area?

Ahhh, but I don't know of any since I do my own work. 

[King Inky]

All,

I went ahead and pulled the top end of the engine apart. The good news: I was able to get it apart and put it back together without too much hassle. The bad news: there were no visible issues...

I took a few pictures and a couple of videos which should be linked at the bottom of this post. Push rods didn't have any damage whatsoever, rocker arms looked fine, both seemed to work fine when we were turning the engine with the top end open (shown in one of the videos). Since everything looked good on the top end, I decided to fire it over for a short period just so I could get a video of the noise so you could at least somewhat hear what I'm hearing. I called a local dealership and they said they could start looking at it on July 7th, and then I got word of a local shop (Dan's Cycle in Allentown) that apparently works on Harleys. He is not open on Mondays so I will be calling him tomorrow. In the meantime, is there anywhere else that I should look that I may be able to get to fairly easily?

Many, many thanks!

Pictures and video:

Operation with the engine open: https://youtu.be/jPW2GHY1Xdg
Video of the noise: https://youtu.be/iJ44u7Wk5IQ

Pictures: http://kinginky13.imgur.com/all/?third_party=1

[Pete_Vit]

1) a loose wrist pin 
2) a broke exhaust flange 
3) none of the above, I'm talking out my arse 
I think if you went so far to take the rocker cover off, you may as well remove the head to see if there's anything broken in there.

[King Inky]

1) a loose wrist pin 
2) a broke exhaust flange 
3) none of the above, I'm talking out my arse 
I think if you went so far to take the rocker cover off, you may as well remove the head to see if there's anything broken in there.

Thanks for the reply! Someone else suggested possibly a wrist pin as well, and at this point anything is a possibility.

[Pete_Vit]

good luck, hope its not all that bad

[King Inky]

UPDATE:

So after removing the front passenger seat in my Jeep and a frustrating hour of loading the bike into it (follow the link at the bottom for pics), I was able to get the bike to a local shop I was able to find (Dan's Cycle Service in Allentown). We cranked the bike over and he immediately shut it down and said "it's the crank!". So now I'm looking at about $2k for the rebuild because it's a pressed crank and possibly more if there's other issues once it's opened. I'll keep updating the thread as I learn more, but I've dropped off the deposit and am awaiting a call once he gets it all apart. Thanks for all the help guys!

Images: http://kinginky13.imgur.com/all/

[Pete_Vit]

WOW! I was dead wrong  that sucks the big one 
good luck, here's hoping there's nothing more wrong 

[aswracing]

UPDATE:

So after removing the front passenger seat in my Jeep and a frustrating hour of loading the bike into it (follow the link at the bottom for pics), I was able to get the bike to a local shop I was able to find (Dan's Cycle Service in Allentown). We cranked the bike over and he immediately shut it down and said "it's the crank!". So now I'm looking at about $2k for the rebuild because it's a pressed crank and possibly more if there's other issues once it's opened. I'll keep updating the thread as I learn more, but I've dropped off the deposit and am awaiting a call once he gets it all apart. Thanks for all the help guys!

Images: http://kinginky13.imgur.com/all/

Stock crank in a '92 is a bolt-together, not pressed. XL's didn't go to pressed until 2000.

Most shops can service it. Although consider fitting up this crank instead:



This is a really nice piece ... the 1.5" pin makes the big end much more durable and also helps resist spread. Plus it has heavy duty connecting rods. The best thing about this crank though is the price, it's really very reasonable. Takes a few other pieces as well as some machine work to install one of these in a 91-03, but it works out price competitive with the other options, and it's a much better piece.

[Pete_Vit]

UPDATE:

So after removing the front passenger seat in my Jeep and a frustrating hour of loading the bike into it (follow the link at the bottom for pics), I was able to get the bike to a local shop I was able to find (Dan's Cycle Service in Allentown). We cranked the bike over and he immediately shut it down and said "it's the crank!". So now I'm looking at about $2k for the rebuild because it's a pressed crank and possibly more if there's other issues once it's opened. I'll keep updating the thread as I learn more, but I've dropped off the deposit and am awaiting a call once he gets it all apart. Thanks for all the help guys!

Images: http://kinginky13.imgur.com/all/

Stock crank in a '92 is a bolt-together, not pressed. XL's didn't go to pressed until 2000.

Most shops can service it. Although consider fitting up this crank instead:



This is a really nice piece ... the 1.5" pin makes the big end much more durable and also helps resist spread. Plus it has heavy duty connecting rods. The best thing about this crank though is the price, it's really very reasonable. Takes a few other pieces as well as some machine work to install one of these in a 91-03, but it works out price competitive with the other options, and it's a much better piece.

and that right there is why I love this place, folks like this have tons on knowledge and experience to steer you right 

[King Inky]

Stock crank in a '92 is a bolt-together, not pressed. XL's didn't go to pressed until 2000.

Most shops can service it. Although consider fitting up this crank instead:



This is a really nice piece ... the 1.5" pin makes the big end much more durable and also helps resist spread. Plus it has heavy duty connecting rods. The best thing about this crank though is the price, it's really very reasonable. Takes a few other pieces as well as some machine work to install one of these in a 91-03, but it works out price competitive with the other options, and it's a much better piece.

I guess I misheard what he was saying about the crank assembly...

That does seem like a decent option. I'll have to talk to the shop and see if that's a possibility...

[King Inky]

UPDATE:

So all of the parts have finally gotten sent out to the machine shop for work. They're going to have to bore the cylinders 10 over and then we're throwing high compression pistons in for a final compression of 10.5:1. The disintegrated bearings going through the oil pump chewed that up, and then he found a slight crack in the oil tank that's supposedly a common failure on those tanks. All in all I'm getting a new crank, freshly bored cylinders, new pistons, a new oil pump and a new oil tank. Total estimated cost is somewhere around the $2500 mark (about $2000 of that is supposedly just for all the parts). I've added a few pictures to the imgur account (posted below), and I'll link a video of the connecting rod play due to the bearing turning into glitter. The one mechanic at the shop told me to hang on tight when I take it for the first ride with those new pistons... I'm trying to be patient and wait for that day but it's tough! I'm told I'll be on the road in August, so it's just a waiting game at this point...

Also looking for info on breaking in the new rings... the guys at the shop said take it on the highway and don't baby it and get a few hundred miles on it. I told the guys that my intentions were to hop on and ride straight up to VT from PA as soon as I get it back and he seemed to think that it would be perfect trip to break it in. Other people (mostly car guys) have said just ride it on a lot of short trips around town and to not just go straight for the highway. I like to trust the guy that's been fixing bikes for over 30 years rather than the car guys, but would like a few extra opinions from guys who ride.

Pictures: http://kinginky13.imgur.com/all/?third_party=1

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzgbIm4eXOc&feature=youtu.be

Thanks again everyone!

[FLHRI_2004]

Don't lug the engine and don't let it get too hot (sitting in traffic).  Just ride it like you will ride it.   

[Panzer]

Yes sir, a little bit-O-play in the con rods.......yikes. 


I would say take it for a couple of test rides first, before you take that trip up north.
Just my .02

Good luck. 

[Pete_Vit]

responded to wrong post   

[Hossamania]

Any update on how this turned out?

[FLHRI_2004]

His connecting rod had a lot of play and a piece was broken off the piston.  He is now waiting for parts (bearings I think).  Still.

[King Inky]

Any update on how this turned out?

Yes, unfortunately I'm still waiting. I've been trying to be as patient as possible but it's now the first day of Fall and I'm still not on the road 

I called the shop about 3 weeks ago and they said they were waiting on a pinion shaft bearing that they had to special order from Harley. From what I hear, Harley is terrible at getting parts out in any sort of timely manner, but I'm not sure of how true that is. I will be calling him again on Friday if I don't hear anything before then.

[Pete_Vit]

thanks for the update, yeah, when my Stator went on my 1200 the wrench found my oil tank was cracked also, good opportunity to add some chrome   
can't get to the pix, 'no public images', but the video tells it all.
I babied the first 100 miles, did the normal ring break in, run thru the gears, downshift engine break...etc..  on my 1200 when I did the rebuild, I replaced all the tappets, so once they quite down it was good to go. so far about 15,000 on that engine and no issues.
good luck and enjoy

[King Inky]

thanks for the update, yeah, when my Stator went on my 1200 the wrench found my oil tank was cracked also, good opportunity to add some chrome   
can't get to the pix, 'no public images', but the video tells it all.
I babied the first 100 miles, did the normal ring break in, run thru the gears, downshift engine break...etc..  on my 1200 when I did the rebuild, I replaced all the tappets, so once they quite down it was good to go. so far about 15,000 on that engine and no issues.
good luck and enjoy

Oh yeah, my oil tank had the same crack as well. $150 for the better aftermarket or $200 for the Harley brand that's prone to cracking... I think you can guess which one I went with  . No extra labor costs since it's all apart so might as well fix it right! Now if I can only get my bike back before the snow starts falling...

Cheers!

[Pete_Vit]

  mine I think was from Drag, it was replaced back in 2000, still solid.
I know how your feeling, my 1200 had to be bored 20 over, after already been bored 10, so I'm at the max for those jugs, and had to wait a long time for the machine shop to get 30 over pistons for that bike, it was late October, which here in Arkansas is not so bad  most of the time

[King Inky]

IT'S BACK!!!!

Finally, after all this time, I've got the ol' girl back on the road. Of course, my luck is that the day after I picked it up from the shop we got some snowfall... oh well. This week has been in the 60's and next week looks the same so I'm getting as much use out of it as possible before it gets too cold and the snow starts sticking...

So as it turns out, the owner of the shop had some personal issues that held him up from working on the bike for a bit causing about a month delay in it. A bit upsetting, but it somewhat paid off for me in the end. He felt so bad that it got delayed and appreciated my patience with him that he went over everything on the bike and made sure it was really good for me so that I won't have to bring it back to him with anything, all while not charging me for any of the labor for that extra stuff. The only other thing I had to pay for was a new battery. Apparently the one that the previous owner had in it was the incorrect one to begin with. It was able to run the bike fine when the engine didn't have good compression, but now that it's right that battery couldn't hold the load. No big deal to me as the final price was still what he had quoted me when I first brought it to him. I'll get some pictures up in the next week or so when I get some free time (AKA, when I'm not riding  ). Can't say enough how much I appreciate the help and input from this thread. And I can't wait until this break-in period is over and I can see what this thing is truly capable of (my brother was trying to race me when I wasn't and he still couldn't pass me... he's on a 2001 Kawasaki Vulcan Drifter 800, not really a good matchup, but it was when the engine was "Potty mouth").

Ride on!

[Pete_Vit]

Nice to hear you've got it back, its frustrating sometime having to wait, those first 100 miles are critical, I'm sure the Indy told you after that  enjoy!
I can't say enough about the technical knowledge and experience of the folks in this forum, I'm right there with ya!
 

[One4Tone]

...change the oil at 500 miles to get all the break in wear out of it...take your time, keep the rpm between 2500 and 3000...good luck...and many happy miles